Slack to replace IRC...
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LOL - just kidding - they're going to replace email. Really!:
Slack says it's going to replace email and is as necessary as electricity in its pitch to investors
Direct messaging service Slack expects to go public on June 20 with a direct listing on the NYSE.
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@PJH so this is the "we need to be more hostile to employees" thread now?
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I have never understood the allure of something like slack. Is it just that you can have pictures in your chat?
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@martijntje Rich communication is good. Pictures, yes, but also message editing, message history, typing indicators, mobile access, pinging while disconnected, long messages, etc. If you've never used it it's hard to see the benefits, but if you've used it for a while you can't imagine downgrading. Same reason you'd rather use NodeBB than a mailing list.
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@pie_flavor At my previous employer we were forced to move from IRC (which everyone loved) to RocketChat (which everybody hated). From what I know it offers similar features, but I really hated that slow, annoying interface.
Also, IRC just worked and has many clients. The RocketChat clients were based on some node js framework that's full of security holes so we couldn't use it. So it had less functionality than IRC. Maybe it's different with slack?
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@martijntje Slack does indeed Just Work, and while the official client uses Electron there's alternative ones. I've never even heard of RocketChat.
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Most of that IRC can do as well. The things it can't do most people don't foresee ever needing to do, so it is hard to justify learning a program for features that they see no use in.
Not that I have any experience with this or anything.
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@martijntje said in Slack to replace IRC...:
I have never understood the allure of something like slack. Is it just that you can have pictures in your chat?
I'm a relatively new user, and as far as I can see, it's basically ICQ crossed with IRC.
It's handy for dealing with remote developers so you don't have a bazillion back-and-forth emails, but that's about it. You can apparently have channel bots and things but we haven't got any. As a chat client it's serviceable.
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@Dragoon Yes. You can create an officewide ZNC server for buffer playback, have a bot responding to a ping command that sends Pushjet notifications, a client plugin for interpreting
s/thing/other thing/as an edit, a client plugin forDCCing typing indicators, etc. But at that point it's not really IRC. You're putting your own stuff on top of other people's stuff on top of the regular stuff, with several proxies in the way and a couple of custom protocols, all to gain a poor emulation of features you could just get by using Slack. Why, at that point, wouldn't you just use Slack?
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Because you have already gone through and done all that work and it works (more or less). It is a process to move away from it and even if "new thing" might do it all better, you still have to learn "new thing". The age old tale with "new things"
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@martijntje said in Slack to replace IRC...:
@pie_flavor At my previous employer we were forced to move from IRC (which everyone loved) to RocketChat (which everybody hated). From what I know it offers similar features, but I really hated that slow, annoying interface.
Also, IRC just worked and has many clients. The RocketChat clients were based on some node js framework that's full of security holes so we couldn't use it. So it had less functionality than IRC. Maybe it's different with slack?
We just switched to RocketChat from HipChat. The only problem I have with it is notifications seem to sometimes not work, though it's possible I'm just not noticing them. I didn't notice anything slow about it.
I'm using the Linux client of version 2.15.3.
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@Dragoon Yes. Standard 'who moved my cheese'ism. Not nearly an argument against. If you already have all of that then go ahead and use it, but stock IRC should be replaced with rich chat somehow.
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I've never used Slack, but we use Mattermost at work for some things, which I assume is similar in functionality?
It's nice to have in some circumstances, but it does not and never will replace email. It certainly isn't going toeventually becom[e] a utility, similar to the internet or electricity.
They need to put less drugs in their marketing department's water. It's also surprising that something that trivial brings in "revenue estimated between $133.8 to $134.8 million" a quarter, but at least that seems fact, not drug-induced fiction.
Also, I kind of miss the late 90s were I could just use the Trillian client to connect to ICQ, IRC, AIM, Yahoo, and all the other then-popular chat platforms. Nowadays everyone has gone back to lock-in, so you need a dozen stupid apps again.
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@pie_flavor said in Slack to replace IRC...:
Why, at that point, wouldn't you just use Slack?
Some companies want their own data on their own servers. Last time I checked that's not an option with Slack.
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@pie_flavor said in Slack to replace IRC...:
Why, at that point, wouldn't you just use Slack?
Last time I checked, you couldn't self-host it, so it was a no-go for us.
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@topspin said in Slack to replace IRC...:
so you need a dozen stupid apps again.
And most of them are Electron based
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I have ported error_bot to RocketChat.
Its WebSocket protocol is dumber than NodeBB's.
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@topspin It seems like alot of effort is wasted on cycling chat programs. Do developers at these places ever get anything done?
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@loopback0 said in Slack to replace IRC...:
@pie_flavor said in Slack to replace IRC...:
Why, at that point, wouldn't you just use Slack?
Some companies want their own data on their own servers. Last time I checked that's not an option with Slack.
Yep. That's exactly why we switched to RocketChat instead of Slack as Atlassian recommended since EOLing HipChat.
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@error You should port it to Discord while you're at it, since we have one of those
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@Zenith said in Slack to replace IRC...:
Do developers at these places ever get anything done?
Doesn't matter seeing as 6 months after they finish it, whatever framework or technology they used will have changed completely and they'll have to do it all again anyway.
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@topspin said in Slack to replace IRC...:
Also, I kind of miss the late 90s were I could just use the Trillian client to connect to ICQ, IRC, AIM, Yahoo, and all the other then-popular chat platforms. Nowadays everyone has gone back to lock-in, so you need a dozen stupid apps again.
Feel free to design a client that supports lots of protocols.
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@pie_flavor said in Slack to replace IRC...:
@martijntje Rich communication is good. Pictures, yes, but also message editing, message history, typing indicators, mobile access, pinging while disconnected, long messages, etc. If you've never used it it's hard to see the benefits, but if you've used it for a while you can't imagine downgrading. Same reason you'd rather use NodeBB than a mailing list.
Meh. I've been using Slack at my current job and HipChat at my last one. These "rich chats" end up full of GIF garbage of people screwing around (at least in the rooms) and after enough disjoint conversations the history is useless.
And by history, I mean searching the history, not scrolling up for those idiots who would respond in that fashion.
True, they're both better than Lync/Skype, but that's not really saying anything.
I don't really consider them bad but I don't understand why so many think these tools are awesome either.
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@loopback0 In that post by Slack I meant rich messaging in general. Obviously you wouldn't use Slack if you needed features it didn't have.
Also, TIL. If Slack is centralized then I honestly don't know what the hell the point of it is when Discord is like six times better.
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@pie_flavor said in Slack to replace IRC...:
@topspin said in Slack to replace IRC...:
Also, I kind of miss the late 90s were I could just use the Trillian client to connect to ICQ, IRC, AIM, Yahoo, and all the other then-popular chat platforms. Nowadays everyone has gone back to lock-in, so you need a dozen stupid apps again.
Feel free to design a client that supports lots of protocols.
Pidgin
Pidgin is a universal chat client, allowing you to consolidate all your different messaging apps into a single tool.
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@pie_flavor said in Slack to replace IRC...:
Why, at that point, wouldn't you just use Slack?
You forgot to budget in the additional 4GB of RAM you would need in each machine to cover the overhead of Slack.
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@mikehurley Feel free to petition Pidgin to add Slack and Mattermost support.
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@mikehurley said in Slack to replace IRC...:
@pie_flavor said in Slack to replace IRC...:
@topspin said in Slack to replace IRC...:
Also, I kind of miss the late 90s were I could just use the Trillian client to connect to ICQ, IRC, AIM, Yahoo, and all the other then-popular chat platforms. Nowadays everyone has gone back to lock-in, so you need a dozen stupid apps again.
Feel free to design a client that supports lots of protocols.
Pidgin
Pidgin is a universal chat client, allowing you to consolidate all your different messaging apps into a single tool.
Huh, Trillian is still a thing. Looks like it's moved to be more of a Slack type thing (its own chat), but its features page suggests it still supports a bunch of IM/chat protocols.
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@Polygeekery Only if you use the official client. You could also use Volt or Ripcord.
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@pie_flavor said in Slack to replace IRC...:
@Polygeekery Only if you use the official client. You could also use Volt or Ripcord.
I think it's fair to include the standard client in your evaluation of the service. If you need to use a third-party client for the service, seems like a pretty crappy service.
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@mikehurley An interesting statement, after having just plugged Pidgin. If IRC is so great, what's the official client?
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@pie_flavor said in Slack to replace IRC...:
I honestly don't know what the hell the point of it is when Discord is like six times better.
They seem to have different focuses.
TBH for using at work I prefer Skype for Business to either. At home, Discord.
My occasional IRC use (and IRC bouncer) is for nostalgia reasons.
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@pie_flavor said in Slack to replace IRC...:
@mikehurley An interesting statement, after having just plugged Pidgin.
I wasn't plugging it. I was noting its existence.
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@mikehurley said in Slack to replace IRC...:
@pie_flavor said in Slack to replace IRC...:
@mikehurley An interesting statement, after having just plugged Pidgin.
I wasn't plugging it. I was noting its existence.
And it's not part of any protocol/service's standard offering. It's a total third-party app.
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@pie_flavor said in Slack to replace IRC...:
If IRC is so great, what's the official client?
Why does it need an official client? On Windows the usual recommendation has been mIRC for 20+ years, but it's an open protocol so there are other clients available.
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@hungrier Right. Like Slack.
Legacy: Real Time Messaging API
A websocket-based HTTP API for receiving a stream of data around a specific connected user. We strongly recommend using the Events API instead.
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@pie_flavor said in Slack to replace IRC...:
@mikehurley If IRC is so great, what's the official client?
I'm not saying a good protocol/service would have a provided client. It probably would but I wouldn't say it's required if the protocol/service is good enough. I am saying that if a service/protocol does happen to provide a client by default, then evaluating that client as part of the service is a fair thing to do.
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@pie_flavor said in Slack to replace IRC...:
@hungrier Right. Like Slack.
Legacy: Real Time Messaging API
A websocket-based HTTP API for receiving a stream of data around a specific connected user. We strongly recommend using the Events API instead.
There's one advantage over Discord. Discord only allows the API to be used for bots.
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@boomzilla Isn't HipChat dead now, with Slack being its official replacement?
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@dfdub said in Slack to replace IRC...:
@boomzilla Isn't HipChat dead now, with Slack being its official replacement?
I thought that was what I said, yes.
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@topspin said in Slack to replace IRC...:
It's also surprising that something that trivial brings in "revenue estimated between $133.8 to $134.8 million" a quarter
It's in the cloud (read: forget about self-hosting) and they have per-user licensing (read: cheap for startups but gets expensive really fast as you grow).
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@boomzilla Yeah, I just realized I failed to parse your sentence correctly. And now you've already replied, so I cannot just delete my post. Crap.
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@pie_flavor said in Slack to replace IRC...:
@martijntje Rich communication is good. Pictures, yes, but also message editing, message history, typing indicators, mobile access, pinging while disconnected, long messages, etc. If you've never used it it's hard to see the benefits, but if you've used it for a while you can't imagine downgrading. Same reason you'd rather use NodeBB than a mailing list.
Yeah, no.
- Message history only when you're online.
- Crashes when connection is lost.
- No way to quote. Replying to a message starts unhelpful 'thread'.
- 'Contact list' is really just recent chats, it's constantly changing, hiding people you talked to x days ago.
- Pictures? Only recent ones, or you're lucky and week old one you're looking for didn't get corrupted/lost/deleted.
Chat with rich features - I'm all for it, but Slack is just not it.
[edit]Oh yeah, gobbles resources like AAA game.[/edit]
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@Gąska said in Slack to replace IRC...:
and they have per-user licensing (read: cheap for startups but gets expensive really fast as you grow).
This is also a fair point.
edit: The only tier that'd work for a typical Enterprise™ company is the $13/user/month tier at which point it's silly expensive.
It'd cost the company I work for $350k per month if we just included the full-time employees and excluded all outsourced people or contractors.
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Why Slack specifically anyway?
I mean, if you're going to go with something centralised, why not Telegram at this point.
Pros: free, decent clients (both on desktop and on mobile), rich communication, can host bots (I don't know how advanced though). You can back up data on your PC, decent search functionality, has no problem sending any kind of file.
Cons: I suppose a trust issue, but if trust is an issue, the cloud is not really an option.
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@admiral_p said in Slack to replace IRC...:
Why Slack specifically anyway?
Because the guy deciding about this heard somewhere that it's "industry standard" or "the best use it" or that it's "cool and programmers love it".
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@MrL yeah but really it's a chat app. Really I don't get it.
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@admiral_p said in Slack to replace IRC...:
Why Slack specifically anyway?
It's the Javascript of IM.
@admiral_p said in Slack to replace IRC...:
why not Telegram at this point.
I've never heard of it, unless you mean actual telegrams. I could support use of actual telegrams.
@admiral_p said in Slack to replace IRC...:
Cons: I suppose a trust issue, but if trust is an issue, the cloud is not really an option.
Indeed. Too many people seem to forget that not everyone wants (or can use) clouds for this stuff.
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@admiral_p said in Slack to replace IRC...:
@MrL yeah but really it's a chat app. Really I don't get it.
And neither do we, professional programmers. The thing is, we've got used to the management making nonsensical decisions, and the saved money won't go to us anyway so we don't bother arguing.
