We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!
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@TimeBandit said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
To which software are you referring?
Debian Package Manager
I use Delphi which allows me to develop for Windows, Mac and Linux.
Can you target Linux desktop with it now?
Last time I checked you couldn't
Not yet...I don't care too much about that at the moment though as I'm generally developing server software. It would be nice though. They have been focusing on mobile dev though. Which I am also using it for that as well. iOS, Android and Surface.
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@boomzilla said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@boomzilla said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
I have no problems with an OS checking for updates and letting me know there are updates to 3rd party software. That of course assumes all involved actually abide by some standard and actually use it. What I don't like is it automatically updating 3rd party software without my knowledge.
So...we actually agree. But I can't reconcile this with your previous statement.
I think the difference would in the type of software you are referring to maybe. I'm a programmer and have been for over 27 years and a gamer for longer. Most of the software on my personal computer consists of development tools and games.
I don't see how would resolve the contradiction between saying you both have and don't have problems with an OS checking for updates.
My problem isn't with Windows it's with Linux and the fact that user space software and their versions are tied to the OS and it's all viewed as being the OS. Updating one library has implications for other software....and yeah, I know that distro maintainers spend a lot of time making sure everything is OK, but good luck if you want to install the latest and greatest version of some piece of software on Linux without having to basically update the whole "OS".
For example if I want to install the latest version of Notepad++ on Windows...I just download the latest version and install it...it doesn't affect anything else on the system.
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@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@boomzilla said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@boomzilla said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
I have no problems with an OS checking for updates and letting me know there are updates to 3rd party software. That of course assumes all involved actually abide by some standard and actually use it. What I don't like is it automatically updating 3rd party software without my knowledge.
So...we actually agree. But I can't reconcile this with your previous statement.
I think the difference would in the type of software you are referring to maybe. I'm a programmer and have been for over 27 years and a gamer for longer. Most of the software on my personal computer consists of development tools and games.
I don't see how would resolve the contradiction between saying you both have and don't have problems with an OS checking for updates.
My problem isn't with Windows it's with Linux and the fact that user space software and their versions are tied to the OS and it's all viewed as being the OS. Updating one library has implications for other software....and yeah, I know that distro maintainers spend a lot of time making sure everything is OK, but good luck if you want to install the latest and greatest version of some piece of software on Linux without having to basically update the whole "OS".
For example if I want to install the latest version of Notepad++ on Windows...I just download the latest version and install it...it doesn't affect anything else on the system.
So...your previous rant about Windows having the ability to facilitate updating 3rd party software...wasn't about Windows having the ability to facilitate updating 3rd party software at all. Fair enough.
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@boomzilla said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@boomzilla said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@boomzilla said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
I have no problems with an OS checking for updates and letting me know there are updates to 3rd party software. That of course assumes all involved actually abide by some standard and actually use it. What I don't like is it automatically updating 3rd party software without my knowledge.
So...we actually agree. But I can't reconcile this with your previous statement.
I think the difference would in the type of software you are referring to maybe. I'm a programmer and have been for over 27 years and a gamer for longer. Most of the software on my personal computer consists of development tools and games.
I don't see how would resolve the contradiction between saying you both have and don't have problems with an OS checking for updates.
My problem isn't with Windows it's with Linux and the fact that user space software and their versions are tied to the OS and it's all viewed as being the OS. Updating one library has implications for other software....and yeah, I know that distro maintainers spend a lot of time making sure everything is OK, but good luck if you want to install the latest and greatest version of some piece of software on Linux without having to basically update the whole "OS".
For example if I want to install the latest version of Notepad++ on Windows...I just download the latest version and install it...it doesn't affect anything else on the system.
So...your previous rant about Windows having the ability to facilitate updating 3rd party software...wasn't about Windows having the ability to facilitate updating 3rd party software at all. Fair enough.
Yeah, it was the fact that the claim of all the software being able to be updated by the OS (Linux) was some how better than what Windows offers ... it's a huge generalization and misleading. Basically because I use Windows as a primary OS. I still develop for other OSes and deal with them on a daily basis. I prefer being able to update my 3rd party software when I want or need to.
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@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@boomzilla said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@boomzilla said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@boomzilla said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
I have no problems with an OS checking for updates and letting me know there are updates to 3rd party software. That of course assumes all involved actually abide by some standard and actually use it. What I don't like is it automatically updating 3rd party software without my knowledge.
So...we actually agree. But I can't reconcile this with your previous statement.
I think the difference would in the type of software you are referring to maybe. I'm a programmer and have been for over 27 years and a gamer for longer. Most of the software on my personal computer consists of development tools and games.
I don't see how would resolve the contradiction between saying you both have and don't have problems with an OS checking for updates.
My problem isn't with Windows it's with Linux and the fact that user space software and their versions are tied to the OS and it's all viewed as being the OS. Updating one library has implications for other software....and yeah, I know that distro maintainers spend a lot of time making sure everything is OK, but good luck if you want to install the latest and greatest version of some piece of software on Linux without having to basically update the whole "OS".
For example if I want to install the latest version of Notepad++ on Windows...I just download the latest version and install it...it doesn't affect anything else on the system.
So...your previous rant about Windows having the ability to facilitate updating 3rd party software...wasn't about Windows having the ability to facilitate updating 3rd party software at all. Fair enough.
Yeah, it was the fact that the claim of all the software being able to be updated by the OS (Linux) was some how better than what Windows offers ... it's a huge generalization and misleading. Basically because I use Windows as a primary OS. I still develop for other OSes and deal with them on a daily basis. I prefer being able to update my 3rd party software when I want or need to.
Linux is also in a place where everything is so intertwined that they don't have much of a choice and backwards compatibility is shit because of it.
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@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
Updating one library has implications for other software
You can have multiple version of a library
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@TimeBandit said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
Updating one library has implications for other software
You can have multiple version of a library
I know this.
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@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@TimeBandit said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
Updating one library has implications for other software
You can have multiple version of a library
I know this.
What I stated was probably a bad example or not clear enough.
An issue I ran into some time last year was with curl. I'm using Ubuntu 16.04 as a target server platform and the software also runs on Windows. I implemented features of whatever version of curl it was at the time. 7.0.58 maybe? The features were multi-part mime stuff for SMTP...anyway....I got the official Windows DLL from the curl website and everything worked fine, but when I went to test the software under linux the most recent version of curl on Ubuntu 16.04 was not the latest version and of course did not have these additional features. It's a minor version too, keep this in mind. I had to download the source and built the latest version in order to use the latest version of the curl library on 16.04 Ubuntu. The alternative would have been to update 18.04...why though? I just need one damn library updated, but that's besides the point. I couldn't if I wanted to though...and this is where the details get fuzzy, but I do believe that the source code for Torque3D server would not build or work under 18.04 so I had to simply install curl from source. Being a programmer this wasn't that big of a deal, but it was still irritating.
What bothers me about this is that clearly the most recent version of curl runs fine on Ubuntu 16.04...but why won't they update it in the this distro? Why is there this incessant want of me to update everything all the time regardless of whether I need to or not? And on top of all of this...curl is a 3rd party library.
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@CodeJunkie basically, you're complaining that Linux didn't have the latest version of curl, while at the same are happy that Windows didn't have any version of curl
you could also download the latest binary for Linux
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@levicki said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
I am just pointing out what a lot of people do.
[Citation Needed]
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@TimeBandit said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@CodeJunkie basically, you're complaining that Linux didn't have the latest version of curl, while at the same are happy that Windows didn't have any version of curl
you could also download the latest binary for Linux
Not 7.58 for xenial...which is what I needed at the time.
EDIT: Well, still do....still using 16.04.
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@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@TimeBandit said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@CodeJunkie basically, you're complaining that Linux didn't have the latest version of curl, while at the same are happy that Windows didn't have any version of curl
you could also download the latest binary for Linux
Not 7.58 for xenial...which is what I needed at the time.
EDIT: Well, still do....still using 16.04.
Luckily in my personal projects I don't run into this often, because I go out of my way to keep 3rd party dependencies to a bare minimum....and I do know how to work around this stuff, but at work though it's a whole different story having to deal with web dev crap.
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@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
having to deal with web dev crap
My sympathies
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@CodeJunkie usually in Ubuntu the way you deal with this is through PPAs.
I haven't looked through the list but you're bound to find the right one. For such simple dependencies it is usually the way to go. It's a pain in the arse when you actually want to install new versions of complex applications that depend on a shitload of recent version libraries. There you have to rely on the PPA bringing in all the dependencies too and do it right. I've had problems in the past with this. Then again, Ubuntu, like Debian stable for instance, or any other traditional distro, just works like that. It supports what it supports, you stick to what's in the repos, and that's what you use. What you're looking for is a rolling distro or a frequently updated one like Fedora. Or snaps/flatpak. Some new package managers like Nix and Guix aim to make everything easier yet maintain some degree of stability. I look forward to them maturing.
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@admiral_p said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
I look forward to them maturing.
Yeah, hopefully so. I'm aware of PPAs, but have not yet had to use them yet, although I have had to use proprietary vendor repos for drivers and other random stuff.
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@TimeBandit said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
happy that Windows didn't have any version of curl
I didn't read his post, but Windows does have a Powershell cmdlet to do curl (or wget)-ish things.
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@hungrier said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
I didn't read his post
I can see that
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@hungrier said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@TimeBandit said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
happy that Windows didn't have any version of curl
I didn't read his post, but Windows does have a Powershell cmdlet to do curl (or wget)-ish things.
I wasn't using the command line program curl, but libcurl...the library.
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@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
while at the same are happy that Windows didn't have any version of curl
It's a 3rd party library, I wouldn't expect Windows to have it...but why should I be happy with having to upgrade an entire OS just to get a small update to a single library? Not that I had to, but it seems that is what the expected action was suppose to be.
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@CodeJunkie anyway the usual Linux distro isn't exactly optimised for developers. It's built for sysadmins basically. Unfortunately if you want an easy distro (no fiddling) that is also on the cutting edge, or even reasonably up-to-date with versions, there aren't many alternatives. Basically it's Arch and its derivatives, and maybe OpenSUSE (or how the hell you capitalise it) Tumbleweed.
Arch apparently breaks a lot, and its installation procedure is something only a h4X0r can love. I tried one of its saner derivatives and they work quite well after all, but being based on Arch there aren't many packages and you have to stick with the official repos and the AUR (basically the community ones), and there's some kludginess about it, and I hated pacman. Weird stupid syntax.
OpenSUSE apparently doesn't break much (they wax lyrical about their testing procedures and stuff) but I've tried it and it's a bit clumsy as a desktop distro (which is all it is really). Bad fonts due to their decision to stick with strictly free and patent-unencumbered software (so no codecs either out of the box), with no quick way to choose to use other software (even though the patents on subpixel rendering have expired, IIRC, so we may see better fonts on most Linux distros sooner or later), and terrible, terrible YaST. It may be full-featured as a "control panel", but it was slow and clunky and badly designed in my opinion. And it's very bland and dated in theming and stuff.
At this point I'd go with Debian Sid, but that's expected to break (I have no experience whether it's just Debian-style paranoia or if it actually does break).
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@admiral_p said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
At this point I'd go with Debian Sid, but that's expected to break (I have no experience whether it's just Debian-style paranoia or if it actually does break).
Can't talk from experience (I'm on Debian Stable) but I'm sure it doesn't break as much as Arch
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@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
You can have multiple version of a library
I know this.
Yes. It's a Unix system.
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I never noticed it before, but including UNIX users in a movie about dinosaurs makes perfect sense, when you think about it
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@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@boomzilla said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
So...your previous rant about Windows having the ability to facilitate updating 3rd party software...wasn't about Windows having the ability to facilitate updating 3rd party software at all. Fair enough.
Yeah, it was the fact that the claim of all the software being able to be updated by the OS (Linux) was some how better than what Windows offers ... it's a huge generalization and misleading.
It's only you who has it "all viewed as being the OS".
There's the OS and there's a package manager. For Linux, there is a whole bunch of different package managers. Windows has a package manager that can update third-party software, too. You haven't been able to explain what you don't like about that.Basically because I use Windows as a primary OS. I still develop for other OSes and deal with them on a daily basis. I prefer being able to update my 3rd party software when I want or need to.
If your package manager keeps you from doing that:
Linux is also in a place where everything is so intertwined that they don't have much of a choice and backwards compatibility is shit because of it.
—Donald Trump on operating systems
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@admiral_p said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
terrible, terrible YaST
YaST was the main reason to pick SuSE Linux, once upon a time.
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@Gurth said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@admiral_p said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
terrible, terrible YaST
YaST was the main reason to pick SuSE Linux, once upon a time.
Because it configured
sendmail
.
And then when they dropped sendmail for something less brain-damaged and YaST lost every reason to exist, they decided to rewrite it in Mono
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@LaoC said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@Gurth said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
YaST was the main reason to pick SuSE Linux, once upon a time.
Because it configured
sendmail
.… no? My reason was because it let me install software without having to hunt down (over an ADSL line, pay-per-minute) and compile everything myself. Stick the DVD into the computer, start up YaST, browse the list for something that seems to do what I want/need, and let it install.
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@Gurth said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
Because it configured
sendmail
.… no? My reason was because it let me install software without having to hunt down (over an ADSL line, pay-per-minute) and compile everything myself. Stick the DVD into the computer, start up YaST, browse the list for something that seems to do what I want/need, and let it install.
Yeah OK, it was a decent RPM frontend, too. Although a very small shell script™ could have done quite the same.
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@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@boomzilla said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@boomzilla said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@boomzilla said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
I have no problems with an OS checking for updates and letting me know there are updates to 3rd party software. That of course assumes all involved actually abide by some standard and actually use it. What I don't like is it automatically updating 3rd party software without my knowledge.
So...we actually agree. But I can't reconcile this with your previous statement.
I think the difference would in the type of software you are referring to maybe. I'm a programmer and have been for over 27 years and a gamer for longer. Most of the software on my personal computer consists of development tools and games.
I don't see how would resolve the contradiction between saying you both have and don't have problems with an OS checking for updates.
My problem isn't with Windows it's with Linux and the fact that user space software and their versions are tied to the OS and it's all viewed as being the OS. Updating one library has implications for other software....and yeah, I know that distro maintainers spend a lot of time making sure everything is OK, but good luck if you want to install the latest and greatest version of some piece of software on Linux without having to basically update the whole "OS".
For example if I want to install the latest version of Notepad++ on Windows...I just download the latest version and install it...it doesn't affect anything else on the system.
So...your previous rant about Windows having the ability to facilitate updating 3rd party software...wasn't about Windows having the ability to facilitate updating 3rd party software at all. Fair enough.
Yeah, it was the fact that the claim of all the software being able to be updated by the OS (Linux) was some how better than what Windows offers ... it's a huge generalization and misleading.
Misleading how? What's the great benefit of having multiple ways to update software instead of a single unified interface?
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@boomzilla said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@boomzilla said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@boomzilla said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@boomzilla said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@CodeJunkie said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
I have no problems with an OS checking for updates and letting me know there are updates to 3rd party software. That of course assumes all involved actually abide by some standard and actually use it. What I don't like is it automatically updating 3rd party software without my knowledge.
So...we actually agree. But I can't reconcile this with your previous statement.
I think the difference would in the type of software you are referring to maybe. I'm a programmer and have been for over 27 years and a gamer for longer. Most of the software on my personal computer consists of development tools and games.
I don't see how would resolve the contradiction between saying you both have and don't have problems with an OS checking for updates.
My problem isn't with Windows it's with Linux and the fact that user space software and their versions are tied to the OS and it's all viewed as being the OS. Updating one library has implications for other software....and yeah, I know that distro maintainers spend a lot of time making sure everything is OK, but good luck if you want to install the latest and greatest version of some piece of software on Linux without having to basically update the whole "OS".
For example if I want to install the latest version of Notepad++ on Windows...I just download the latest version and install it...it doesn't affect anything else on the system.
So...your previous rant about Windows having the ability to facilitate updating 3rd party software...wasn't about Windows having the ability to facilitate updating 3rd party software at all. Fair enough.
Yeah, it was the fact that the claim of all the software being able to be updated by the OS (Linux) was some how better than what Windows offers ... it's a huge generalization and misleading.
Misleading how? What's the great benefit of having multiple ways to update software instead of a single unified interface?
You sound kinda like a totalitarian here
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@levicki said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
@Gribnit said in We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!:
You sound kinda like a totalitarian here
Maybe he is just anti-chaos? I like my entropy low, thank you.
No chance. Mods don't do work.