The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread
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@AyGeePlus said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
If instead of sending kids to a public building filled with trusted adults every day, you didn't do that...?
What you're talking about is criminal neglect of child that will get your child taken from you within 24 hours. We, on the other hand, are talking about homeschooling.
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@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
What you're talking about is criminal neglect of child that will get your child taken from you within 24 hours.
...what? Homeschooling happens in your home? Which means you don't go to school?
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@AyGeePlus said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
Let me be explicit and very clear: We don't learn about arabic mathematicians because of oppression. We don't learn about IBM's role in the holocaust because it's easier not to. We should learn about those things.
Indeed we should (maybe, probably, depending on what you think the outcome of primary and secondary education should be in terms of students' skills). But what we definitely shouldn't is do it during math classes. Math classes are for math. Not people behind math.
But if you absolutely must to squeeze history into the hours dedicated to math, at least keep the grading separate. I seriously doubt that the school in question will keep the math oppression knowledge score separate from actual math score.
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@AyGeePlus said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
What you're talking about is criminal neglect of child that will get your child taken from you within 24 hours.
...what? Homeschooling happens in your home?
Yes. A home filled with trusted adults (if it's not, it's criminal neglect of child that will get your child taken from you within 24 hours). Or sometimes (usually? dunno) some community schooling groups that gather all the homeschooled kids in the neighborhood to learn together - in a place that's also filled with trusted adults (if it's not, it's criminal neglect of child that will get your child taken from you within 24 hours).
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@Gąska I think we would make the same reforms to the public school system if we were dictators for a day.
This is a math curriculum written by an ethnic studies person, and as a result it's a bit fucked, which I'm not going to deny. It's a patch on the current system (which is also fucked) and I think generally in the direction of progress. Well. Not The Worst You Could Be Doing, at least.
@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
Yes. A home filled with trusted adults (if it's not, it's criminal neglect of child that will get your child taken from you within 24 hours).
Oh, I see the confusion. An earlier draft of my post included '3rd party', to explicitly point out that what you need is unrelated trusted adults that aren't part of your family or religion. Brevity is the soul of wit, at least in theory.
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@AyGeePlus said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Gąska I think we would make the same reforms to the public school system if we were dictators for a day.
We most definitely wouldn't. I'm a libertarian.
This is a math curriculum written by an ethnic studies person, and as a result it's a bit fucked, which I'm not going to deny. It's a patch on the current system (which is also fucked) and I think generally in the direction of progress. Well. Not The Worst You Could Be Doing, at least.
"The worst you could be doing" is a very shitty benchmark. If you don't see it, you lack imagination in your worst case scenario. And I'm not sure whether it's progress or just progressiveness.
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@AyGeePlus said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@boomzilla said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
That's better than the alternative.
It varies a lot place to place, but places where you have to show a lesson plan and periodically check in with the educational system so you're not falling behind provide a huge barrier to nutbars and almost nothing to motivated parents.
It shouldn't be impossible, but it should be effort. We can have the best of both worlds.
The mechanisms vary from state to state, AIUI. I think the nutbar issue is being greatly exaggerated here.
What is the big concern, anyways? That they get a weird brand of politics? They probably get that in any case (or they rebel, as many kids do). That they don't believe in evolution? That's a thoroughly silly phenomenon, but if the kids learn the three Rs it's probably not going to affect them much. And it doesn't seem like public schools are doing such a hot job to begin with, so an engaged and interested parent seems like a pretty solid environment, all things considered.
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@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
That's why most homeschoolers don't do it because of ideology, but because of quality of education.
I'm definitely not doubting the intentions of the majority of homeschoolers.
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@dfdub do you doubt official data on final exams scores?
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@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
Of those children helped by the teachers you know that you mentioned, how many have parents that are crazy or with extremist political and religious views, compared to just neglectful?
E_SAMPLE_SIZE_INSUFFICIENT
I can only confidently say that both happens.
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@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
do you doubt official data on final exams scores?
At this point, I'm mostly trying to clarify what I didn't say before I leave this thread, since I don't see this discussion making meaningful progress anytime soon.
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@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
Of those children helped by the teachers you know that you mentioned, how many have parents that are crazy or with extremist political and religious views, compared to just neglectful?
E_SAMPLE_SIZE_INSUFFICIENT
I can only confidently say that both happens.
In this case, you might want to reevaluate your biases. The ratio of disfunctional families vs. religious extremist in this particular subgroup is very likely to be the same as the ratio of disfunctional families vs. religious extremists in general population. And while not exactly trivial, it's not too hard to obtain hard data on the latter.
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@boomzilla said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
I think the nutbar issue is being greatly exaggerated here.
Depends on local nutbar concentration. Around here it's pretty high.
@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
"The worst you could be doing" is a very shitty benchmark.
I think it's better than doing nothing and leaving it all as-is.
@boomzilla said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
That they get a weird brand of politics?
Man I wish. Around here that's how you end up with yahoos rolling coal down main street shouting racial slurs at random (white, which is confusing) women and vowing to refight the war of northern aggression, and that's pretty mild. It gets real Branch Davidian in places. On both ends of the political spectrum, but the leftists tend to be quieter. Lots of reiki and fake cancer cures.
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There are actually standards for homeschooling in the US: https://www.thoughtco.com/homeschool-laws-4154907
It varies state-to-state (obviously), but there are checks in place to prevent many of the things that is pointing out as problems.
Further, there are homeschooling meetups, group activities. Some public schools even have deals with local homeschooling groups that allow the students to participate in school events (field trips, dances, special/guest lectures, etc...). I know that in my home town, the local college allowed home school students access to one of their chem labs on certain days.
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@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
In this case, you might want to reevaluate your biases.
My main point was and always has been that the children who suffer from such a situation can be impossible to reach in one case, but not the other. We can guess the ratios and whether there's a correlation all day and it doesn't change my main argument.
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@AyGeePlus said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
"The worst you could be doing" is a very shitty benchmark.
I think it's better than doing nothing and leaving it all as-is.
And I think the opposite. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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@hungrier said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@AyGeePlus said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
We don't learn about arabic mathematicians because
of oppressionit's a math class. We don't learn about IBM's role in the holocaust because it'seasier not toa math class. We should learn about those things in history class or some appropriate setting.Right. And you obviously think that Physics courses should also be completely historical-context free...
... I'm pretty sure that I can pull out any of my Chemistry or Physics textbooks (for university, mind!) and find several historical references in there - and not only due to the names of the units.
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@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
In this case, you might want to reevaluate your biases.
My main point was and always has been that the children who suffer from such a situation are impossible to reach in one case, but not the other.
Okay, so you reach out to kids suffering from bad public education. What now?
The beauty of homeschooling is that it gives you a choice.
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@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
In this case, you might want to reevaluate your biases.
My main point was and always has been that the children who suffer from such a situation are impossible to reach in one case, but not the other.
Okay, so you reach out to kids suffering from bad public education. What now?
The beauty of homeschooling is that it gives you a choice.
I see, You have a choice. Which choice does the child have?
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@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
Okay, so you reach out to kids suffering from bad public education. What now?
Erm, what?
And nobody's stopping you from tutoring your kids or paying someone else to do so if you feel their education is insufficient. Or change schools, if possible.
The beauty of homeschooling is that it gives you a choice.
You, as a parent, not necessarily the kids.
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@Rhywden said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
In this case, you might want to reevaluate your biases.
My main point was and always has been that the children who suffer from such a situation are impossible to reach in one case, but not the other.
Okay, so you reach out to kids suffering from bad public education. What now?
The beauty of homeschooling is that it gives you a choice.
I see, You have a choice. Which choice does the child have?
As long as they can't earn living themselves, no choice in either case.
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@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Rhywden said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
In this case, you might want to reevaluate your biases.
My main point was and always has been that the children who suffer from such a situation are impossible to reach in one case, but not the other.
Okay, so you reach out to kids suffering from bad public education. What now?
The beauty of homeschooling is that it gives you a choice.
I see, You have a choice. Which choice does the child have?
As long as they can't earn living themselves, no choice in either case.
I see, so the child has no say in this. Beautiful concept which epitomizes everything which is wrong with your approach to this.
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@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
Okay, so you reach out to kids suffering from bad public education. What now?
Erm, what?
Oh, you meant it's easier to talk to a neglected child if it's seen publicly at least some of the time, and homeschooled child is never seen?
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@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
Oh, you meant it's easier to talk to a neglected child if it's seen publicly at least some of the time,
Exactly.
and homeschooled child is never seen?
Again, I never generalized like that.
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@Rhywden said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Rhywden said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
In this case, you might want to reevaluate your biases.
My main point was and always has been that the children who suffer from such a situation are impossible to reach in one case, but not the other.
Okay, so you reach out to kids suffering from bad public education. What now?
The beauty of homeschooling is that it gives you a choice.
I see, You have a choice. Which choice does the child have?
As long as they can't earn living themselves, no choice in either case.
I see, so the child has no say in this.
Just to clarify: I wasn't stating my opinion on what rights children should have. I was just stating a simple fact that a choice between eating and not eating isn't really a choice.
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@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Rhywden said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Rhywden said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
In this case, you might want to reevaluate your biases.
My main point was and always has been that the children who suffer from such a situation are impossible to reach in one case, but not the other.
Okay, so you reach out to kids suffering from bad public education. What now?
The beauty of homeschooling is that it gives you a choice.
I see, You have a choice. Which choice does the child have?
As long as they can't earn living themselves, no choice in either case.
I see, so the child has no say in this.
Just to clarify: I wasn't stating my opinion on what rights children should have.
Oh, but you were. Next time: Don't make broad statements which kind of go against the very thing you're arguing against.
I mean, you just equated it to "starving or not starving".
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@Rhywden said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Rhywden said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Rhywden said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
In this case, you might want to reevaluate your biases.
My main point was and always has been that the children who suffer from such a situation are impossible to reach in one case, but not the other.
Okay, so you reach out to kids suffering from bad public education. What now?
The beauty of homeschooling is that it gives you a choice.
I see, You have a choice. Which choice does the child have?
As long as they can't earn living themselves, no choice in either case.
I see, so the child has no say in this.
Just to clarify: I wasn't stating my opinion on what rights children should have.
Oh, but you were.
No, I wasn't.
Next time: Don't make broad statements which kind of go against the very thing you're arguing against.
Broad statements like that an abusive parent might resort (against the law) to starving their child? What's your point here?
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@AyGeePlus said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@boomzilla said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
That they get a weird brand of politics?
Man I wish. Around here that's how you end up with yahoos rolling coal down main street shouting racial slurs at random (white, which is confusing) women and vowing to refight the war of northern aggression, and that's pretty mild. It gets real Branch Davidian in places. On both ends of the political spectrum, but the leftists tend to be quieter. Lots of reiki and fake cancer cures.
I have a difficult time believing that the solution to this sort of thing is to substitute public schools for homeschooling here.
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@boomzilla It's certainly not helping. A program to ensure all children learned history at least in broad strokes would go a long way, and that's at least shaped like a public school.
There's clearly more than one thing wrong, that's for sure. When you're way north of the mason-dixon, confederate flags are just perplexing. What are you celebrating? Your ancestors fought on the other side!
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@Gąska The point is that this argument about "choice" is a really bad one because the one person for whom the choice actually matters doesn't get to choose in your scenario.
So please don't act as if it's a good argument that you're choosing for someone else.
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@AyGeePlus Even in the South it's perplexing. It's usually considered a sign of rather questionable ethical views when someone flies the flag of the German Empire over here.
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@Rhywden said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@AyGeePlus Even in the South it's perplexing. It's usually considered a sign of rather questionable ethical views when someone flies the flag of the German Empire over here.
'we lost but we're mad about it' is dumb, but it's also part of american politics now, for better or worse. 'We won but we're mad about it' doesn't make sense anywhere.
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@Rhywden said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Gąska The point is that this argument about "choice" is a really bad one because the one person for whom the choice actually matters doesn't get to choose in your scenario.
So please don't act as if it's a good argument that you're choosing for someone else.
Um, isn't that the whole role of parenthood? To choose things that are (hopefully) beneficial for someone else?
I can see someone arguing that all children should be removed from their parents as early as possible and put into a public boarding school type of environment so that all children in a society receive the same level of care and education, apart from any parents that may hold nutty whackjob views of the world (even including, but not limited to, undesirable political views or "rather questionable ethical views").
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@Rhywden said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Gąska The point is that this argument about "choice" is a really bad one because the one person for whom the choice actually matters doesn't get to choose in your scenario.
Are you saying it doesn't matter for parents how their kids will end up?
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@djls45 Doesn't a mandatory public school system seem like a reasonable compromise between the view that parents should be able to do whatever they want and the opposite extreme view you just described?
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@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@djls45 Doesn't a mandatory public school system seem like a reasonable compromise between the view that parents should be able to do whatever they want and the opposite extreme view you just described?
No, at least not as implemented. Because the people running the system have absolutely no stake in how it comes out. That's right, there is zero meaningful accountability. Not teachers, not local administrators, not district and state administrators, not legislators. While many of the people (at least at the pointy end of the stick) mean well, the product they deliver is awful in every way. In large (but not exclusive) part due to the contradictory and dictates from above.
I'm a teacher. I see all the fads that flow from the education departments like rivers of laced with cyanide. I see teachers that try to do the right thing get ground down under the bureaucratic machinery and end up soul-less time-servers who do nothing if it's not explicitly in their contract. Ones who boast about giving nothing but T/F quizzes in math class because they're easy to grade. Ones who don't retire because their pension doesn't vest quite yet. Ones who can't (or don't) teach at all, but are protected by union contracts. And I see any attempt to correct the system run against the union, entrenched bureaucracy, and get accused of racism, sexism, classism, and every other type of modern sin.
I was homeschooled through 8th grade (except kindergarten and 5th grade). I know lots of people who homeschool (it's a big thing among people of my faith for various reasons, most of which are not explicitly religious, nor are they related to evolution). The nuttiest ones I know are actually hard left (including environmental activism etc). The rest are good people trying to do the best they can and keep their kids (for widely varying reasons) out of the system that has harmed them in the past.
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@AyGeePlus said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
'We won but we're mad about it' doesn't make sense anywhere.
Doesn't make sense, but tell that to all the cons who got their precious PATRIOT Act and now listen to conspiracy theories on the radio.
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One other rant (vaguely on topic)--when considering systems, we need to consider scale.
Take, for example, the "shining exemplar of everything to do right about education" (or so it's presented in the US, no claim that that's actually true), Finland. In 2018 there were ~650k students in grades K-12. That's just over half of what's in the NYC public school system alone, not counting all the parochial, independent, and other schools. And only 3x what there is in my local district, covering one county in the Tampa-St. Pete Metro area of Florida, not even the state's largest district.
One other, more general annoyance of mine--comparing the ideal implementation of one proposal to the actual results of another system. Either compare actual to actual or ideal to ideal, but mixing the two isn't fair argumentation no matter which side gets the advantage.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
The nuttiest ones I know are actually hard left (including environmental activism etc). The rest are good people trying to do the best they can and keep their kids (for widely varying reasons) out of the system that has harmed them in the past.
Does that have anything to do with you only considering “left” or giving a shit about the environment nutty? Might just be confirmation bias.
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@topspin said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Benjamin-Hall said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
The nuttiest ones I know are actually hard left (including environmental activism etc). The rest are good people trying to do the best they can and keep their kids (for widely varying reasons) out of the system that has harmed them in the past.
Does that have anything to do with you only considering “left” or giving a shit about the environment nutty? Might just be confirmation bias.
No. They're (admitted) hard-socialists (not social democrats but "government should own the means of production" types that believe Bernie is too soft).
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@Benjamin-Hall that was the wrong side of the question. Interesting clarification, though. I don’t equate hard socialist with environmentalism.
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@topspin said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Benjamin-Hall that was the wrong side of the question.
Ah. I realized that and was about to edit. No, they're also conspiracy theorists (of the "the only reason we don't have flying electric cars is the evil oil companies suppress the knowledge" variety). Combined with the "crystals and essential oils cure cancer and doctors are evil" variety.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@topspin said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Benjamin-Hall that was the wrong side of the question.
Ah. I realized that and was about to edit. No, they're also conspiracy theorists (of the "the only reason we don't have flying electric cars is the evil oil companies suppress the knowledge" variety). Combined with the "crystals and essential oils cure cancer and doctors are evil" variety.
It’s getting late and I skimmed this before reading it correctly. It resulted in “... flying electric cars is the essential olive oils companies”.
Only slightly more moronic, but absolutely more hilarious.
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@topspin I like your version better.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
I see teachers that try to do the right thing get ground down under the bureaucratic machinery
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@Benjamin-Hall said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@topspin I like your version better.
It's definitely more believable...
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@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@djls45 Doesn't a mandatory public school system seem like a reasonable compromise between the view that parents should be able to do whatever they want and the opposite extreme view you just described?
If you agree to drop the word "public" and if you don't require specific goals (broad ones are okay, e.g. so many credit-hours in science or history or arts) in "mandatory schooling," then I could agree that it's a reasonable compromise.
Trying to forbid indoctrination with any given ideology absolutely requires presenting another ideology. Most often, teachers (and people in general) don't talk about both the pros and cons of any given ideology and the various alternatives; they just try to indoctrinate with another ideology instead; it's a whole lot easier and requires less thinking on both the teachers' and students' sides.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
"shining exemplar of everything to do right about education" (or so it's presented in the US, no claim that that's actually true), Finland
If you're using Finland as an example to follow, then please follow the shining image of 30 years ago, and not the current implementation. As the system stands right now, on its last legs, PISA results are rolling downhill fast.
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@acrow said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
PISA results are rolling downhill fast.
Not falling over?