When being configurable is more important than being useful
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@blakeyrat said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
THEN LOCKED THE VERSION OF IT
NOBODY LOCKS VERSION OF ANYTHING.
They still provide the old versions, but it's the user's choice to use it.
@blakeyrat said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
SECURITY CRITICAL software to be updated so there's no security flaws.
And it IS.
That does not mean it has the latest features nor that it has the non-security-related bugs fixed, because it is actually more secure to only fix the security issues and not apply other changes.
Also, screensaver is not that security critical. One must not be able to break it from keyboard, but otherwise there is not much you could gain by attacking it.
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@Magus said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
Since Windows 8 you mean?
Actually, yes, I do. I stopped working on Windows application two years ago and back then it still cared for Windows 8. Phone, to make things worse.
Still the adoption rate does not seem to be that great.
@Magus said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
And there's also Chocolatey.
Yes. I use that. But it has all the same issues of being a central repository with maintainers, usually different from the upstream author, having to maintain the packaging.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
But getting is is damn difficult.
I still don't know how to meaningfully reverse an apt-get upgrade that broke all the applications.Yeah, that's a bit tricky. The versions of the packages that are not current in any suite are available via http://snapshot.debian.org/. You have to dig up the right version (I normally go to the etckeeper history; the apt hook writes the versions there) and fetch it.
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@gordonjcp said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
@blakeyrat said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
Then why hasn't anybody working at Debian done it?
Maybe they don't see it as a priority. Who gives a fuck about screensavers? What is this, the 90s? Why are you still using a CRT monitor?
Because it would be against the rules they promised to the users they'll follow. Which basically boil down to: 1. we will keep the package available and 2. we will only fix security issues and serious bugs (to minimise risk we break something).
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@blakeyrat said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
Then explain the post I asked you to explain, which only makes sense if the version of the software is locked to the version of the OS.
This "locked to the version" business is your invention.
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@blakeyrat said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
Especially Debian users, SINCE THEIR OS PROVIDED IT FOR THEM, THEN LOCKED THE VERSION OF IT.
Only in your mind.
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@Bulb said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
Also, screensaver is not that security critical.
It is if your shitty windowing system is X11 and there's literally no better way to lock the screen, like I've posted in here 3 times already.
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@Bulb said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
You have to dig up the right version (I normally go to the etckeeper history; the apt hook writes the versions there) and fetch it.
By hand. For all the dependencies. Are you insane?
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@blakeyrat said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
@Bulb said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
Also, screensaver is not that security critical.
It is if your shitty windowing system is X11 and there's literally no better way to lock the screen, like I've posted in here 3 times already.
Keep posting your lies.
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@boomzilla said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
Keep posting your lies.
Will do.
Elephants are fish.
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@blakeyrat said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
@boomzilla said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
Keep posting your lies.
Will do.
Elephants are fish.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
@Bulb said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
You have to dig up the right version (I normally go to the etckeeper history; the apt hook writes the versions there) and fetch it.
By hand. For all the dependencies. Are you insane?
I always only revert the one or a couple of packages that have a bug, so that's not too much work.
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@Bulb said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
@Tsaukpaetra said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
@Bulb said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
You have to dig up the right version (I normally go to the etckeeper history; the apt hook writes the versions there) and fetch it.
By hand. For all the dependencies. Are you insane?
I always only revert the one or a couple of packages that have a bug, so that's not too much work.
I have not the skills...
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@blakeyrat said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
Elephants are fish.
Well, duh. They swim underwanter ; of course they're fish
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VWZlGtM_KIE_POOR_LIE
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@Bulb said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
NOBODY LOCKS VERSION OF ANYTHING.
They still provide the old versions, but it's the user's choice to use it.I once updated the GCC version of my Ubuntu with some PPA, to get those new C++11 stuff. Then, I don't remember why, I wanted to go back to the normal version. apt-get didn't let me do it, got into some confusing dependency state. I just formatted everything.
Next time I try a new GCC I'll use a VM or something.
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@Zerosquare said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
@blakeyrat said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
Elephants are fish.
Well, duh. They swim underwanter ; of course they're fish
E_POOR_LIE
True lies — the worst kind.
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@sockpuppet7 said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
apt-get didn't let me do it, got into some confusing dependency state.
It is not really confusing dependency state, it just doesn't downgrade dependencies automatically, and insists on returning to consistent state and the end, so you have to give it all the related packages at once.
It often takes a while of mad
clickingbutton mashing around in aptitude to do it—or writing a mile-long command-line for apt-get—or taking an hour to understand the madness that is apt priorities to make it downgrade automatically.And gcc is especially nasty in this regard, because it is a bunch of packages tied into a Gordian knot.
@sockpuppet7 said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
Next time I try a new GCC I'll use a VM or something.
Since last year or two, I am a very strong proponent of simply building a docker with appropriate (set of) toolchain(s) for each project and building with that. I am now even using Netbeans in docker container, because the project requires ancient versions of it, Glassfish and Java.
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@Bulb I think docker is too annoying for desktop apps. I use snap for Android studio, but I didn't found it for gcc yet.
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@Bulb said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
Since last year or two, I am a very strong proponent of simply building a docker with appropriate (set of) toolchain(s) for each project and building with that. I am now even using Netbeans in docker container, because the project requires ancient versions of it, Glassfish and Java.
Imagine if you didn't have to do that because developer tools weren't universally shit.
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@sockpuppet7 It is annoying for desktop apps, particularly on Windows, where X don't have Unix-domain socket. But there is nothing else on Windows, too, and I didn't get dual-boot installed yet.
For desktop apps, flatpak seems nicest. But for build tools, docker is reasonable. And supported by all the continuous integration hostings as a bonus.
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@blakeyrat I would be happy if I could just use the latest developer tools for everything. Alas, that project which must be built with Java 1.6 and if you try to build it with Java 1.8, even with appropriate target flag, the build will die because some .jar in the libs folder is slightly broken and Java 1.6 didn't mind, but Java 1.8 crashes on it.
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@blakeyrat Installation of anything should be unzip a file in a folder. That folder should have everything the application needs except the OS kernel.
MS-DOS was like that, there was no dependency problems, "DLL Hell", none of these problems, and everything was good.
Docker is just one more way people inventented to solve DLL Hell, after all the ones mentioned here:
DDE, COM, ActiveX, COM+, ATL, etc All this nonsense.
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@Bulb said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
@blakeyrat ...Java
Oh, now you've done it.
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Next time someone leaves their Ubuntu desktop unlocked I know what I'm going to do.
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@Zerosquare said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
@blakeyrat said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
Elephants are fish.
Well, duh. They swim underwanter ; of course they're fish
Don't be ridiculous. Elephants are diesel submarines. You can see the snorkel at the front.
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@Bulb said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
that project which must be built with Java 1.6
I used to have code like that. It did “exciting” things with security, classloaders and dynamic code generation. I was very glad to stop supporting it…
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@dkf said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
@Bulb said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
that project which must be built with Java 1.6
I used to have code like that. It did “exciting” things with security, classloaders and dynamic code generation. I was very glad to stop supporting it…
Sounds fun.
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@pie_flavor said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
Sounds fun.
Wasn't. Vast amount of grinding stupidity to support people doing things in an idiotic way because some previous jerkwad wanted to make the bastard lovechild of OSGi and Maven for NIH raisins. And it needed to connect securely to random HTTPS sites out there with every bad security practice going too, so the security was really nasty. All these things broke and broke again with each new version of Java, yet if we'd stuck to things done by other people then at least a lot of this trouble would have never occurred. (The security would have sucked still, since that was an actual user requirement from in-the-wild use. And no, Let's Encrypt wasn't a viable option for users at that point.)
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@dkf Is it dead? sounds like a crawling horror.
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@dkf What was the dynamic code generation for, if you don't mind me asking? The most Sponge uses it for is baking event listeners and generating all the events they don't want to bother writing classes for.
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@Gribnit said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
sounds like a crawling horror.
Oh. Sorry, that's a creeping terror.
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@pie_flavor said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
What was the dynamic code generation for, if you don't mind me asking?
It's been a while, but I think it was cooking up delegates between internal security domains in cases where there weren't nice interfaces and one of the modules wasn't fetched over the internet yet. Or something like that. It was all a part of the software that was so thoroughly confusing that we eventually deleted it and replaced with Spring and OSGi; writing our own services on top of those was about a thousand times easier as those frameworks try to not intrude upon your code…
In short, great software is stuff that you can use effectively without having to understand how it works. Stuff that requires that you understand it all in order to use any of it is very much not great for anyone other than the original author. And if you design your software to only be deployable by HP Lovecraft, your soul will be getting exactly what it deserves.
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@Gąska said in When being configurable is more important than being useful:
Like scrolling on launcher(?) bar(?) popping windows on and off screen. (...) I hate those features and I want them all gone
Update: over time, I've got so used to it that now I miss it on Windows. It's awesome.