The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!
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Interesting. Has anyone had personal experience with Thoughtworks? I was under the impression it was a solid company.
Also, Is Rails and the community as fucky as he makes them out to be?
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@stillwater said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
Rails
https://what.thedailywtf.com/topic/17231/wtf-how-can-this-be-so-wrong-aka-the-discopocalypse-thread
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@stillwater said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
Is Rails and the community as fucky as he makes them out to be?
I have no idea about the community, but bits of Rails are pretty terrible. Stuff that you'd do with a tiny droplet in any sensible language/stack requires huge multi-gigabyte VMs backed with large shares of the CPU resources when built on Rails. Or did the last time I looked; I've been 100% Rails-free for years. (I was 99% free before that, but colleagues were using it and I occasionally helped out with bug hunting by being a second set of eyes.) “Fucky” is par for the course when Rails is about, even more so than with vanilla Ruby.
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@dkf I'm surprised because DHH seems like a really sensible person. Hmph, who would have thought.
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@stillwater said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
Hmph, who would have thought.
It's full of smart
assperson's mistakes. Tricks that make the code look nice but impenetrable to maintenance coders, that sort of thing…
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@dkf For all the "People read more code than they write" that's been going around for 500 years now, I'm genuinely surprised to hear this. SMH.
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@stillwater said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
For all the "People read more code than they write" that's been going around for 500 years now, I'm genuinely surprised to hear this.
The problem is that they just make the surface nice, and use horrible hacks to do it instead of making the goodness go right to the bone. Which is OK until someone else does a major update and you start having to maintain all those extra hacks to keep things good. In languages like C# and Java, you're much more able to look at a piece of code and say immediately what it does (though you might have to then go off and look up the library calls to comprehend the implications of that, but that's true of any non-trivial language), though it's a bit more possible to hide evil things in C# than Java (since you can do nasty things in property getters and setters; thankfully, that's at least considered bad style). C is another language that is like that, provided nobody's done anything extensively hacky with the preprocessor. C++ is trickier; there are operators that are applied implicitly and that spells potential trouble when someone smarter than they are wise gets hold of them.
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With Rails I get scrawny cock suckers with carpal tunnel syndrome talking to me like they’re gonna eat my young. Their feeble PHP infected minds can’t grasp advanced shit like objects or closures. When you combine stupid businesses with stupid people using a stupid framework based on a big fat fucking lie on a shitty platform you get the perfect storm of dumbfuck where a man like me can’t find work.
He sounded like some frustrated envious loser on the verge of going on a murder rampage.
Since he recently started charging for his previously free books and seems to be spending majority of time making shitty paintings no one cares about, I guess his software career hasn't improved much since.
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@cartman82 said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
He sounded like some frustrated envious loser on the verge of going on a murder rampage.
If he's going to take out some of the jerks involved in Rails in an orgy of blood and bullets…
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@dkf said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
If he's going to take out some of the jerks involved in Rails in an orgy of blood and bullets…
If he's going after jerks, he should start by looking at the mirror.
If you go down the street and you meet an asshole, fine, you met an asshole, it happens.
If you go down the street and everyone you meet is an asshole, it's more likely that YOU are the asshole.
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@cartman82 said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
If he's going after jerks, he should start by looking at the mirror.
Mass-murder/suicide works as a news story.
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Rails is like MVC but:
- Even more constraining on what kind of apps you can build without "breaking out of the framework"
- Slow as shit because it runs on Ruby
- Zero IDEs/developer tools
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@blakeyrat said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
Zero IDEs/developer tools
You should stick to what you know and stop spreading lies.
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@blakeyrat said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
- Zero IDEs/developer tools
The Ruby on Rails IDE by JetBrains
Cross-platform Ruby on Rails IDE with first-class support for Ruby-related technologies. Download now!
Cue blakey trying to explain to me why JetBrains products are all horrible and that somehow validates his 'zero' assertion
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@dkf said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
You should stick to what you know and stop spreading lies.
You should shove your face in the back end of a walrus.
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Wow. Almost 80 percent of startups here use RoR. The biggest startups here use RoR. And then Django and then PHP. What's with the huge market share? What sort of open source boner is RoR offering companies?
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@cartman82 or books provide him with enough financial mojo to make shitty paintings (which are getting better and better year over year). Damn I wish I had that much time for my hobbies.
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@blakeyrat said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
@dkf said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
You should stick to what you know and stop spreading lies.
You should shove your face in the back end of a walrus.
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@pie_flavor said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
@blakeyrat said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
@dkf said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
You should stick to what you know and stop spreading lies.
You should shove your face in the back end of a walrus.
At least it's more, hmmm, creative than most of the insults hurled around here.
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@hardwaregeek That's fair. Well, since I'm not actually using a voting system, I can do both!
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@blakeyrat said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
@dkf said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
You should stick to what you know and stop spreading lies.
You should shove your face in the back end of a walrus.
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@pie_flavor said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
@blakeyrat said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
@dkf said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
You should stick to what you know and stop spreading lies.
You should shove your face in the back end of a walrus.
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±
is apparently not long enough for a post by itself
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@dkf said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
Stuff that you'd do with a tiny droplet in any sensible language/stack (and, also, PHP)
FTFY
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@blakeyrat said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
You should shove your face in the back end of a walrus.
Goo goo g'joob.
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@stillwater said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
Interesting. Has anyone had personal experience with Thoughtworks? I was under the impression it was a solid company.
Also, Is Rails and the community as fucky as he makes them out to be?
I stopped worrying about this sort of rants to evaluate tools, because you'll find this type of criticism for any language you search for, together with posts saying how great tool X is.
As I've said before, I think popularity is still the best metric, and after testing different stuff for decades, every time some language that is so "hot" but for some reason doesn't become popular, when I put it to the test I end up finding why it isn't popular.
For ruby, I suspect it's the deployment for the app that Discourse led us to think is a complete WTF.
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@sockpuppet7 said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
As I've said before, I think popularity is still the best metric,
But Git is popular.
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@blakeyrat TFS is popular too. Would you rather go with "Fossil", "Arch" or some other impopular VCS?
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@sockpuppet7 I just want one that doesn't suck.
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@blakeyrat said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
@sockpuppet7 I just want one that doesn't suck.
Someone will need to invent one first.
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@ben_lubar said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
@pie_flavor said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
@blakeyrat said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
@dkf said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
You should stick to what you know and stop spreading lies.
You should shove your face in the back end of a walrus.
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@sockpuppet7 said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
For ruby, I suspect it's the deployment for the app that Discourse led us to think is a complete WTF.
No, RoR is always like that. My main RoR app is Redmine. It is so freaking hard to deploy and the official instructions don't work, that it's much easier to download a preconfigured VM from Bitnami than actually set it up yourself.
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@mott555 said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
@sockpuppet7 said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
For ruby, I suspect it's the deployment for the app that Discourse led us to think is a complete WTF.
No, RoR is always like that. My main RoR app is Redmine. It is so freaking hard to deploy and the official instructions don't work, that it's much easier to download a preconfigured VM from Bitnami than actually set it up yourself.
Eerie. I wanted to deploy a django app and the same thing happened. Something ends up being fucky always and I had to create a django app on azure from bitnami and then play around with it. What is going on? For all the RoR and Django are the best things ever omg jizzzzzzzzz I assumed there must be easy ways of deployment. Are we TRWTF?
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@stillwater said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
Wow. Almost 80 percent of startups here use RoR. The biggest startups here use RoR. And then Django and then PHP. What's with the huge market share? What sort of open source boner is RoR offering companies?
I have heard RoR described as the fastest way to get a quasi functional, good looking web application.
It however, utterly fails to scale.
The plurality of startups aren’t made to be sustainable long term products. They’re made to make an impact in the investment community and be sold to someone who actually has the resources to productize.
Hence RoR.
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@weng said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
They’re made to make an impact in the investment community and be sold to someone who actually has the resources to productize.
I was suspicious this was the case all along but then I was under the impressions startups are basically 'Fuck the big corps, we'll do what we want' and are making a dent in the world. I need to get the naivety kicked out of me soon. This all seems like large-scale deception. Hmph :/
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@stillwater There are a handful of genuine "We want to change everything" companies. They grow up to be Google, SpaceX, Tesla, Facebook, Amazon.
You can spot them because they have a business model that actually makes money, at least on paper.
Google had advertising. SpaceX has space launch contracts. Tesla theoretically sells cars at a profit. Facebook advertising. Amazon literally sold books and every branch out from there has been another direct profit. Wordpress has hosting. StackOverflow has job listings.
You'll note that this is distinct from the Youtubes and Flickrs and Meebos and so on and so forth, which are basically just shouting "HEY GOOGLE AND/OR FACEBOOK YOU COULD MAKE SO MUCH MONEY SELLING ADVERTISING OR DATA MINING ON THIS THING!"
... And then there's shit like Twitter. Which doesn't make money, doesn't seem to need to make money, and is so highly valuated it's impossible to sell to anybody else. This is what I like to call a "fiat startup" in that it exists simply because we collectively insist it exists.
And then there's Uber, which is a fiat startup that insists that once technology improves severalfold they will actually have a real business model.
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@weng What about all the inbetweeners so to speak? I see startups that have a few customers make okayish money but just don't make sense. For example, randomly picking a company, how would you gauge something like this or this
The biggest confusion for me is with joining a startup just for the pleasure of not having to deal with Corporate BS only to find out six months down the line I've wasted time on a company building somebody 's half assed dream and all the contacts you've made are rockstar programmer types that are absolutely useless when it comes to pretty much anything else except programming.
EDIT: Oh I also worked in a startup whose product was basically SQL Server + Front end for Querying with few bells and whistles. They had 15 customers before they had a decent working product. Blows my mind.
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@weng said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
fiat startup
but a fiat 500, panda or a multipla? The range goes from nice to fugly quickly
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@stillwater said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
how would you gauge something like this or this
As not too healthy I think:
Edit: That's not even a real 404 page it's returning 200 , inspector says it's being generated by a metric ton of js wankery.
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@cursorkeys said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
Edit: That's not even a real 404 page it's returning 200 , inspector says it's being generated by a metric ton of js wankery.
This got me thinking, If the whole thing is a JS SPA, wouldn't the thing return 200 once with all the subsequent url manipulation and handling happening in the front end and therefore no real 404?
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@stillwater It'd be doing service calls in the backend. If that's AJAX or similar over a HTTP transport, those could 404. If it's over websocket, then probably no 404 to be found.
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@weng said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
I have heard RoR described as the fastest way to get a quasi functional, good looking web application.
It's the exact same thing as Microsoft's MVC but built in WAY worse technology.
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@weng said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
fiat startup
What we need is a crypto startup based on blockchain to get us away from these fiat startups.
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@weng said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
And then there's Uber, which is a fiat startup that insists that once technology improves severalfold they will actually have a real business model.
They have a real business model. It's called “trying to run more than one step ahead of the Long Arm of the Law”. (Also, they've seriously improved things in quite a few US cities, where the incumbent taxi monopoly was awful.)
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@blakeyrat said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
but built in WAY worse technology
It's built in Ruby, so yes, you're exactly right.
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@luhmann said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
@weng said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
fiat startup
but a fiat 500, panda or a multipla? The range goes from nice to fugly quickly
Those Fiats are less startup and more breakdown.
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@loopback0
Pandas keep on trucking but Multipla's are so ugly I suspect their owners purposely crashing them
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@dkf said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
@weng said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
And then there's Uber, which is a fiat startup that insists that once technology improves severalfold they will actually have a real business model.
They have a real business model. It's called “trying to run more than one step ahead of the Long Arm of the Law”. (Also, they've seriously improved things in quite a few US cities, where the incumbent taxi monopoly was awful.)
And most importantly, compared to so many startups, they have actual revenue from paying customers. Which used to be necessary (though obviously not sufficient) in order to have a business plan that had a chance of getting anyone to invest money.
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@stillwater said in The Zed Shaw Rant discovered too late!:
The biggest confusion for me is with joining a startup just for the pleasure of not having to deal with Corporate BS only to find out six months down the line I've wasted time on a company building somebody 's half assed dream
But hey, we're still going after (apparently) four years, somehow.
