Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb
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@Gurth That doesn't answer the question.
But the question is pointless if the camera is there to verify each incident.
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@sloosecannon said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
- It's your car, and you're driving it.
- It's your car, and someone you've authorized is driving it. You're still responsible for their use of the vehicle.
- It's your car, but someone you don't know is driving it. Also known as theft.
- It's your car, and someone you've authorized has given a third person permission to drive it.
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@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@Rhywden said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Ah, the fairy-world solution then. In your land of rainbows and shits and giggle, obviously no one ever came across something like a "ski mask" - the "Get out of any fines for free" card, according to your logic.
How do you catch people that rob banks with ski masks?
Do you send a fine to a random person in the teller line?
The guy is sitting in a car which is legally registered to you. So, you get the "I don't know who was driving" card exactly once.
After that, you either name the real driver or your ass is on the line. Perfectly reasonably, after all, you have been warned.
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@masonwheeler said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Direct police and courts to treat tailgating exactly the same way as drunk driving.
Just pulling people over for tailgating and giving them tickets would be an improvement. If you treated tailgating exactly like you would drunk driving, there wouldn't be room in the jails. You'd have to fence in Ohio and make it a prison farm.
@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
It's almost as if there's also laws about driving too slow...
Here they're pretty much only enforced when the police are looking for drunk drivers.
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@Dragoon said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Did you not see him driving erratically in your rear view mirror? Did you not see him enter your blind spot? Did you not assume that, given that behavior, he may cut in front of you, and have been prepared?
It is like you think every road that people drive on is only 1-2 lanes and doesn't have thousands of other cars on it.
It's like you don't know anything about human psychology or traffic.
- The mind becomes accustomed to normal conditions, and develops filters to tune out stuff that's ordinary so you don't have to waste brainpower analyzing it. When someone's driving erratically, though, they get past that filter and stick out.
- The more cars that are on the road, the more congestion there is, which decreases the mobility of cars around you, which ends up essentially meaning that no matter how dense traffic is, the number of cars you have to care about paying attention to doesn't really get any higher.
@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
I suppose I'm also not supposed to drive along side 18 wheelers... ever...
That's a good idea on general principle, for reasons too numerous to enumerate here. In practice, it's not always possible, but... yeah. IME the further you stay away from heavy trucks, the better.
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@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@Gurth That doesn't answer the question.
Of course it does: an induction loop doesn’t care how long the vehicle is or many axles it has — it just reacts to the presence or absence of a large magnetic mass. The moment the mass goes away is when the vehicle has passed, whether it’s a Smart or a road train. You’d have to do some seriously unsafe driving to make it mistake two vehicles for one.
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@antiquarian said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Just pulling people over for tailgating and giving them tickets would be an improvement. If you treated tailgating exactly like you would drunk driving, there wouldn't be room in the jails. You'd have to fence in Ohio and make it a prison farm.
Not necessarily.
You know what happened when police started cracking down on drunk driving? A lot less drunk driving, that's what.
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@sloosecannon said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@lordofduct said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@sloosecannon said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@lordofduct said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
They're 10 dollar an hour kids fresh on the job site and just thrown the keys.
Lol maybe where you live they are.....
Where do you live?
If it's in the US, I bet you anything it's along those lines. New York for example most ambulances are ran by private companies that hire on primarily EMTs and a handful of paramedics.
Surprisingly, where I live, Florida... it's better. Ambulances are part of the fire department and aren't often private companies and are staffed with higher trained people.
I find this ironic since Florida is known for its privatization, corruption, and general lack of state funding. While New York is no for its liberal, well funded, nanny state.
Ohio. Most of the private ambulance companies are staffed by retired public paramedics, so they've got plenty of experience. Plus they usually have both the driver and the guy in the back get the same training so they can do each others' jobs (or help in a big emergency)
Hrmmm
It appears EMTs average 14 dollars an hour in Ohio (like I guessed).
They are licensed by the national EMT registry (same standards as most other states).
Sure, you may have some retired parameds running around as well in your town. But I highly doubt there's enough retired med staff sitting around to fill the highly demanding job of EMT work. Especially if private companies can hire younger EMTs at a lower rate... especially since it's 14 an hour.
And I repeat again, the crux of my point.
THEY'RE NOT TRAINED DRIVERS!
They're trained in medicine, not driving.
I was a truck driver, I was trained in driving, I can drive most any vehicle you can throw at me outside of military stuff like tanks (my dad could though). They're medical staff who happen to drive. They didn't take 6 months or more of driving training, clock thousands of miles of driving in extreme conditions... they were thrown keys, told to turn on the siren, and people are to get the fuck out of their way.
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@antiquarian said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
fence in Ohio and make it a prison farm.
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@Rhywden said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
After that, you either name the real driver or your ass is on the line. Perfectly reasonably, after all, you have been warned.
Thank you for warning me, but I really don't know who is in the car.
I parked at the park and ride this morning, and I haven't seen my car since.
@antiquarian said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
If you treated tailgating exactly like you would drunk driving
They'd be back on the street after killing a whole family.
@Gurth said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
You’d have to do some seriously unsafe driving to make it mistake two vehicles for one.
You were far more clear than the wiki article.
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@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@Rhywden said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
After that, you either name the real driver or your ass is on the line. Perfectly reasonably, after all, you have been warned.
Thank you for warning me, but I really don't know who is in the car.
I parked at the park and ride this morning, and I haven't seen my car since.
Then you have to claim it as stolen. Basically, your car, your responsibility.
It's the same as with guns.
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@Rhywden said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Then you have to claim it as stolen. Basically, your car, your responsibility.
I'm sorry, I only thought it was stolen. Girlfriend rode off in it and forgot to call me...
Or you could ticket the actual driver.
Wait, you're one of those that would charge someone for murder because they're gun was stolen when they weren't home and they didn't get a chance to report it?
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@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@Rhywden said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Then you have to claim it as stolen. Basically, your car, your responsibility.
I'm sorry, I only thought it was stolen.
Girlfriend rode off in it and forgot to call me...
That won't work. And will be very expensive.
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@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
They'd be back on the street after killing a whole family.
Does that really still happen? If so, we should fix that first.
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@Gurth said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@sloosecannon said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
- It's your car, and you're driving it.
- It's your car, and someone you've authorized is driving it. You're still responsible for their use of the vehicle.
- It's your car, but someone you don't know is driving it. Also known as theft.
- It's your car, and someone you've authorized has given a third person permission to drive it.
Hmm, tôûchē
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@Rhywden said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
That won't work. And will be very expensive.
You know what's not expensive....?
Giving tickets to the actual driver...
Unjust system, or miss a few tickets... yeah, I can see the concern is really just about the money. They are, after all, minor infractions. No need to make everyone but the violator responsible.
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@antiquarian said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Does that really still happen? If so, we should fix that first.
Yeah... grew up in a small town with the town drunk that did just that...
He still gets his case of beer every weekend...
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@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@Rhywden said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
That won't work. And will be very expensive.
You know what's not expensive....?
Giving tickets to the actual driver...
You seem to be quite incapable of comprehending the concept of "being legally responsible for sth."
Again, your car, your responsibility. Don't want to deal with such hassles? Don't lend your car to someone else.
It's the same concept that's behind parents being responsible for the shit their children are pulling.
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@Rhywden said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Again, your car, your responsibility. Don't want to deal with such hassles? Don't lend your car to someone else.
Or you just report it stolen when you see your friend got a violation.
Now we have to deal with a much more expensive investigation and civil suit, over a $x00 ticket...
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@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@antiquarian said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Does that really still happen? If so, we should fix that first.
Yeah... grew up in a small town with the town drunk that did just that...
He still gets his case every weekend...
Is he still allowed to drive? The state typically revokes your license if you're a repeat offender.
He has a problem that the state can't fix for him. All the state can do is minimize the collateral damage.
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Yep, still drives...
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@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@Rhywden said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Again, your car, your responsibility. Don't want to deal with such hassles? Don't lend your car to someone else.
Or you just report it stolen when you see your friend got a violation.
Now we have to deal with a much more expensive investigation and civil suit, over a $x00 ticket...
Again, with your ass on the line. Because claiming a crime where there isn't one? That's not only expensive, that will be punished with jail if the judge is vindictive.
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@Rhywden said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Again, with your ass on the line. Because claiming a crime where there isn't one? That's not only expensive, that will be punished with jail if the judge is vindictive.
Doesn't matter, you just cost the state $x000s for a $x00 ticket.
If the court system is flooded with people doing this, you ground the courts to a halt over wanting more money.
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@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@Rhywden said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Again, with your ass on the line. Because claiming a crime where there isn't one? That's not only expensive, that will be punished with jail if the judge is vindictive.
Doesn't matter, you just cost the state $x000s for a $x00 ticket.
If the court system is flooded with people doing this, you ground the courts to a halt over wanting more money.
Okay, you're once again getting way too idiotic for me.
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@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Maybe you should try being in a Grand Jury....
Trust me, this shit happens.
We don't have juries in Germany. You're still an idiot, though.
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@Rhywden I'm not the idiot. The people who would do anything stupid to avoid a small fine are.
@Rhywden said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
We don't have juries in Germany
No wonder you're ok with dystopian justice...
Cameras are uncaring cold POS. They don't take anything into consideration because they don't know context.
I'm sorry, cameras for traffic violations is bullshit.
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@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@Rhywden I'm not the idiot. The people who would do anything stupid to avoid a small fine are.
@Rhywden said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
We don't have juries in Germany
No wonder you're ok with dystopian justice...
And you're okay with all kinds of delusional crap on a "But what if the sky fell and it rained sad puppies!" basis.
Do me a favour: Never get children. Because you won't have fun arguing to a judge that you shouldn't pay for the window your son broke because it wasn't you who broke the window.
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@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Or you just report it stolen when you see your friend got a violation.
When your line of thought reaches "file a fraudulent police fort", it's time to stop and go back up the decision tree for another path.
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@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Doesn't matter, you just cost the state $x000s for a $x00 ticket.
If the court system is flooded with people doing this, you ground the courts to a halt over wanting more money.
Or maybe if you committed the violation you should just own up to it like a man and not be a little taint burglar. I have a coworker just like that.
The system works because surprisingly (to me, anyway), not everyone's a scumbag; in fact, there are more honest people than not.
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@Rhywden said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Do me a favour: Never get children. Because you won't have fun arguing to a judge that you shouldn't pay for the window your son broke because it wasn't you who broke the window.
Bad comparison.
Unless you think that I should be held guilty for someone drugging my son and giving him a bat.
I guess you're also ok with someone suing me because they slipped on my driveway, even though I had a sign saying "no solicitors". My driveway, I should be responsible for baby-proofing it.
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@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Someone stole my wife's car from the park and ride.
@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
I'm sorry, I only thought it was stolen. Girlfriend rode off in it and forgot to call me...
Yeah, I think you have bigger problems than a red light camera.
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@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@Rhywden said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Do me a favour: Never get children. Because you won't have fun arguing to a judge that you shouldn't pay for the window your son broke because it wasn't you who broke the window.
Bad comparison.
Unless you think that I should be held guilty for someone drugging my son and giving him a bat.
Well, there are countless other legal responsibilities where you are held accountable for something that's your property. That's the way it works: You own it, you are responsible for what is done with it.
That's the way any sane legal system works.
Again, have fun arguing to a judge that it shouldn't be that way. Hell roll his eyes and slap you with a fine regardless.
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@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
When your line of thought reaches "file a fraudulent police fort", it's time to stop and go back up the decision tree for another path.
Not arguing that you should.
You misread the intent of that argument.
I'm arguing that people WILL be encouraged to do that, and now you have a much more expensive problem on your hands.
Where we are, they anticipated that, and made the camera violations into civil penalties, because they couldn't prove in court that you violated the law.
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@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@Lorne-Kates said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
When your line of thought reaches "file a fraudulent police fort", it's time to stop and go back up the decision tree for another path.
Not arguing that you should.
You misread the intent of that argument.
I'm arguing that people WILL be encouraged to do that, and now you have a much more expensive problem on your hands.
Where we are, they anticipated that, and made the camera violations into civil penalties, because they couldn't prove in court that you violated the law.
No, most people won't be encouraged to do that because it carries a massive fine and mandatory jail time (two to five years, in fact).
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@Rhywden said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Well, there are countless other legal responsibilities where you are held accountable for something that's your property. That's the way it works: You own it, you are responsible for what is done with it.
No, I own it and I'm responsible for what I allow to be done with it.
Proving that in court becomes problematic.
That's why we have people suing over slipping in driveways.
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@Rhywden said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
No, most people won't be encouraged to do that because it carries a massive fine and mandatory jail time.
Right. This entire premise is unsound.
There are many possible good arguments here; this is not one of them.
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@Rhywden said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
No, most people won't be encouraged to do that because it carries a massive fine and mandatory jail time (two to five years, in fact).
You underestimate the stupidity of people.
Again, for these reasons, they made the camera violations into civil penalties. I'm not the only one to anticipate that level of stupidity, and the frivolous waste that's been incurred by automated systems.
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@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@Rhywden said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
No, most people won't be encouraged to do that because it carries a massive fine and mandatory jail time (two to five years, in fact).
You underestimate the stupidity of people.
Again, for these reasons, they made the camera violations into civil penalties. I'm not the only one to anticipate that level of stupidity, and the frivolous waste`) that's been incurred by automated systems.
- ) Citation needed
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@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
You underestimate the stupidity of people.
By that argument, it's not just automated enforcement of regulations that's a problem; you can't enforce the law at all. "I caught this guy red-handed with weed on him but he swears the weed isn't his, so we're just completely stymied. It's going to cost us money to prove otherwise!" That's not how it works.
Criminals are pretty universally stupid yet enforcement of the law is uniform anyway. You're arguing on the basis of a problem that's already been solved by your own report.
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@Rhywden
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/transportation/20111014-in-dallas-area-nearly-a-third-of-red-light-camera-tickets-are-going-unpaid.ece
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@xaade And that's a problem for Germany, because?
Also: It's a failing of your legal system. And has nothing to do with automated red-light cameras.
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@heterodox said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
By that argument, it's not just automated enforcement of regulations that's a problem; you can't enforce the law at all. "I caught this guy red-handed with weed on him but he swears the weed isn't his, so we're just completely stymied. It's going to cost us money to prove otherwise!" That's not how it works.
The problem is that the civil penalty doesn't justify the cost of tracking the real person responsible down because you have to prove in court that it was that exact person that committed the violation, in order to do anything other than send a letter.
People will simply say they weren't in the vehicle at the time. Or they'll straight up file a false report, and you'll have to hunt down the problem, over a camera violation that's 1 in 10,000. It's just not worth it.
For weed violations, you have a sizable portion of the population that backs politicians that make it a priority. Completely different.
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@Rhywden said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@xaade And that's a problem for Germany, because?
Also: It's a failing of your legal system. And has nothing to do with automated red-light cameras.
I was about to say that Germany has nothing to do with this but realized this discussion started in a discussion about the logbook provisions. That's how far afield this argument is by now.
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@Rhywden said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
It's a failing of your legal system
It's a failing of our legal system that we have to prove the person committed the crime....
Ok...
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@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@Rhywden said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
It's a failing of your legal system
It's a failing of our legal system that we have to prove the person committed the crime....
Ok...
Strangely enough, we're perfectly able to do that in Germany. Then again, we're obviously not morons.
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@heterodox said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
logbook provisions
Which is even harder to prove in court.
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@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
@heterodox said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
logbook provisions
Which is even harder to prove in court.
Okay, you're a moron. I'm done arguing with you.
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@Rhywden said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Strangely enough, we're perfectly able to do that in Germany. Then again, we're obviously not morons.
You can prove with a camera who was driving the car? Without having to show who was driving the car.
I'm hoping that you just have the cameras angled so they actually capture the person driving.
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@xaade said in Idiot comes up with stupid demands for "safe driving" that even @Lorne-Kates says are idiot dumb:
Red light cameras have incentivised creating shorter yellow lights subverting the trust people have in them and causing more accidents
If you have an idiot local gubermint, sure. That's not a good reason to be against them though.
Armed militaries can be used to suppress the people too, but that doesn't mean we should get rid of them too.