Turkish Coup
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
I could use gun control argument to argue for illegalizing personal ownership of vehicles and instituting a public transportation only policy.
Don't give him any ideas.
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@Maciejasjmj said in Turkish Coup:
Yeah, dump them all in Greece, that's gonna help matters. Why the hell would you move to a country that can barely sustain itself, let alone a couple millions of people who would need at least some initial investment?
LOL
Dumping them in Greece is terrible idea because they can't provide for their people.
But let's totally trust their border security.
Oh, I also noticed, that by extension, you've made rejection impossible.
"Yeah, dump them all at the shoreline in Europe, that's going to help matters. Why would you move to a shoreline border that can't help millions of people that need at least some initial investment."
You see, I knew this would come back to, "we have to open borders because they are here".
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@dkf said in Turkish Coup:
such as just how badly they've fucked up the integration of immigrants and pretended that there was no problem at all for years
And it's really quite amazing how the whole Europe is all too keen to follow their lead on that.
US sticks black people into ghettos and fails to integrate them, ghettos turn into a breeding ground of poverty and crime.
France sticks Arabic immigrants into infrastructure-less suburbs and fails to integrate them, alienated immigrants riot and burn up cars.
Europe sticks refugees into refugee centers and fails to integrate them... and whoever fails to learn from history, etc.
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@antiquarian said in Turkish Coup:
Don't give him any ideas.
Well, if we're going to make judgements on rights based on the results alone, we should ban a lot of stuff.
Hell, let's just ban the ability of people to prepare their own food, because they could circumvent our ban on unhealthy food.
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@xaade
Racist, Sexist and Islamophobe (a term that was made up to specifically to stifle any legit complaints about Islam, by the brotherhood themselves) these days are thrown around to shut down any sort of conversation about any topic that has any nuance.
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@Maciejasjmj said in Turkish Coup:
Europe sticks refugees into refugee centers and fails to integrate them... and whoever fails to learn from history, etc.
So, you're volunteering to host a refugee family. Well if people who cared about Syrians volunteered and were responsible for refugees, then there would be no problem. But, nope, the government should do it, and dump this problem on everyone so I can pat my back for defending them ideologically.
What a noble gesture.
Truth is, no one actually gives a shit about Syrians, they just give a shit about not feeling guilty to admitting they don't give a shit. But somewhere in some corner of your mind, you recognize that there is merit to prioritizing and providing for your own first.
There is a reasonable approach to actually helping as many innocent people as you can, but no one's interested in that, just interested in back-patting.
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@Rhywden said in Turkish Coup:
And yet you deign to tell me that I "haven't read everything".
That's only because you never got past the cleavage guards at Portland Down.
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@flabdablet No these weren't at Portland Down my friend. These were at Stevenage. It was a gag against the establishment, I thought this would be quite obvious ... apparently not.
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@Maciejasjmj said in Turkish Coup:
US sticks black people into ghettos and fails to integrate them, ghettos turn into a breeding ground of poverty and crime.
France sticks Arabic immigrants into infrastructure-less suburbs and fails to integrate them, alienated immigrants riot and burn up cars.Funny that Orientals didn't do that.
No one stood on a car and said, "Burn this shit down" in Houston's Chinatown.
And I'm pretty certain there's still a small bit of racism against them.
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@lucas1 said in Turkish Coup:
Racist, Sexist and Islamophobe (a term that was made up to specifically to stifle any legit complaints about Islam, by the brotherhood themselves) these days are thrown around to shut down any sort of conversation about any topic that has any nuance.
It's actually the liberals that make these stupid arguments that are actually afraid of Islam.
Don't blame women for rape because of what they wear, but for crying out loud, don't draw a cartoon of Muhammad, we're inciting terrorism by allowing free speech.
If the argument is that security is evidence of fear, then what is your locked doors, your car alarms, your fences around prisons, your fences around the White House, etc.
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It's actually the liberals that make these stupid arguments that are actually afraid of Islam
I consider myself a liberal. I believe in free speech and expression as long as you don't hurt anyone else.
Don't blame women for rape because of what they wear.
Women (as well as men) should be able to wear what they like.
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
But let's totally trust their border security.
I'd rather trust Greece's (lack of) border security than your "border security" which seems to think everyone has "good guy" or "bad guy" written in their passports. At least that lets more people who are in need but missing a passport in, while doing just as little about potential terrorists who can get a fake passport with absolutely zero problems.
@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
You see, I knew this would come back to, "we have to open borders because they are here".
Well, they are here, that cup of milk has been spilled. What's your magic bullet then? Preferably one that doesn't involve sending people off to death.
@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
So, you're volunteering to host a refugee family. Well if people who cared about Syrians volunteered and were responsible for refugees, then there would be no problem. But, nope, the government should do it, and dump this problem on everyone so I can pat my back for defending them ideologically.
Come on, if your arguments are gonna boil down to ad hominems, I'm out.
@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
Truth is, no one actually gives a shit about Syrians, they just give a shit about not feeling guilty to admitting they don't give a shit. But somewhere in some corner of your mind, you recognize that there is merit to prioritizing and providing for your own first.
Now you're just projecting your thoughts. Here's a surprising fact for you, some people do have this little thing called empathy - and what's worse, empathy towards people different than themselves.
That you don't give a shit about Syrians, and that you value your own folk more than otherkin, doesn't mean all people work that way.
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@lucas1 said in Turkish Coup:
I believe in free speech and expression as long as you don't hurt anyone else.
I'd agree depending on the definition of harm.
"You've harmed the government by distorting its message to the citizens"
@lucas1 said in Turkish Coup:
Women (as well as men) should be able to wear what they like.
And draw what they want.
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@xaade We are then in agreement on those things.
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@xaade I'm too tired to pick apart your argument in detail, but the core of the problems is virtually always lack of integration. What you want of an immigrant community is for them to get established, get into running their own businesses, having families, worrying about where are the best schools, complaining about their commutes, etc. You know, regular stuff. At that point, the differences become mainly quirks and stop being all that important; they're just folks, perhaps with different ways of praying and different restaurants, but those are things that shouldn't be a big deal.
Failure to integrate is a problem though. The biggest problem of the lot is that it leads to a generation (usually 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants) that has a massive chip on its collective shoulder as they figure out they're stuck and aren't going to be able to do anything about it. It's that which leads to almost all the real trouble, crime, gang warfare, terrorism, etc. There are outliers, but the core of the challenge is that a failure to integrate stokes lots of trouble, and the faster the buildup of immigrants in an area, the more likely that there'll be these sorts of things happen. (With possible exceptions for where the immigrants become the majority, though that has different challenges…)
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@Maciejasjmj said in Turkish Coup:
while doing just as little about potential terrorists who can get a fake passport with absolutely zero problems.
Back to the, we can't tell the difference argument.
"They don't exist" stopped working again, I see.
@Maciejasjmj said in Turkish Coup:
What's your magic bullet then? Preferably one that doesn't involve sending people off to death.
If they don't have documentation, it definitely doesn't include letting them into a city.
@Maciejasjmj said in Turkish Coup:
Come on, if your arguments are gonna boil down to ad hominems, I'm out.
It's a legit argument.
For the one person I read that actually hosted a refugee family, much respect, putting your money where your mouth is, is going to earn my respect.
But it's bullshit, "we have to do something" and then go home with no concerns because the truck didn't blow up at your front door, or worse yet, "it's an acceptable sacrifice"
To me, to hear people talking about acceptable sacrifices of their own citizens, it's indefensible.
It's "I want to feel better, so it doesn't matter if my neighbor dies".
@Maciejasjmj said in Turkish Coup:
Now you're just projecting your thoughts.
Where were they for the last 20 fucking years?
That's right. Not giving a shit because it wasn't at their front door.
Again, this is just people feeling guilty.
The real people who are empathetic to Syrians, are the volunteer doctors and other charities that have been in their country for the last two decades.
@Maciejasjmj said in Turkish Coup:
empathy towards people different than themselves.
Yeah, again, much respect for the people who are actually in Africa doing charity and mission work. I'll support them where-ever I can.
@Maciejasjmj said in Turkish Coup:
That you don't give a shit about Syrians, and that you value your own folk more than otherkin, doesn't mean all people work that way.
You realize that there are many otherkin that are already citizens.
The things I argue for defense of citizenry, applies to the Muslim citizens in my country as well.
That's not even counting the fact that even Jordan, some of those otherkin, also denied refugees due to the ability of ISIS to sneak through them.
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@dkf said in Turkish Coup:
I'm too tired to pick apart your argument in detail, but the core of the problems is virtually always lack of integration.
And that's why you limit immigration so that you have the capacity to integrate those that you let in.
Letting in millions into a city that is only millions large, would be a huge mistake.
@dkf said in Turkish Coup:
they're just folks, perhaps with different ways of praying and different restaurants, but those are things that shouldn't be a big deal.
For the majority, yes. Especially 2 or 3 generations removed from the point of immigration.
@dkf said in Turkish Coup:
Failure to integrate is a problem though.
Especially since Egypt has 40 million people that think it's ok to stone a non-Muslim woman for cheating on their spouse. You don't think you're importing that ideology if you were to take in a few million of those guys.
Syria, isn't a problem. They're pretty fond of freedom of religion.
Again, the people coming in on boats are a mix of Egyptians, Somalians, and Syrians. Because, checking their passports is a tragedy...
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
You realize that there are many otherkin that are already citizens.
Behold, the tumblr MENACE
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Was thinking more of these guys.
Muslims For Trump Founder: Donald ‘Is The Only One Who Can Save America’ [VIDEO]
![Muslims For Trump Founder: Donald ‘Is The Only One Who Can Save America’ [VIDEO]](https://cdn01.dailycaller.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Sajid-Tarar-Donald-Trump-Screen-Shot-CNN-5-24-2016-Fox--e1464105240644.jpg)
Muslims for Trump founder Sajid Tarar praised Donald Trump saying that his fellow Muslim friends think that the Republican candidate "is the only one who can save America."
“There are several reasons. First of all, that radical Islam is I believe is not only a threat to western civilization it is a threat to Islam itself.”
And again.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/dec/11/nidal-alsayyed-texas-imam-forced-to-resign-after-e/
“I think any future candidates, presidents who do not support the fact that we need to be more safe and more cautious about whom to bring into this country, whether they’re Muslims or not.”
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Failure to integrate is a problem though
That is their fault then, not ours .. "When in Rome.."
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
“I think any future candidates, presidents who do not support the fact that we need to be more safe and more cautious about whom to bring into this country, whether they’re Muslims or not.”
I think that sentence a verb and an.
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@lucas1 Again, it falls apart when you consider the Chinese and Korean immigrants, who manage to produce their own sectors of the city without rioting and destroying everything.
Muslims have actually integrated better than they have.
It's all thanks to limiting immigration and giving people a chance to immigrate.
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Hey guys what's going on in this thre
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@dkf said in Turkish Coup:
The more comprehensive sharing of information between the various security services probably is actually relevant
And now that I've read the article on the BBC more thoroughly (it was something to do while commuting in), that was actually the key point the author was making. I think the author overstates the importance of border control, but it was actually only a very small part of the article.
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“Democracy is like a train: when you reach your destination, you get off.”
— Recep Tayyip Erdogan
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@flabdablet said in Turkish Coup:
@Rhywden said in Turkish Coup:
And yet you deign to tell me that I "haven't read everything".
That's only because you never got past the cleavage guards at Portland Down.
In all fairness, it can be difficult to stay abreast of all the latest security measures.
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@Groaner
Let's go to Rome!
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Interesting (and fairly long) article by a French ex-pat on French and Islamic culture.
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@boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:
Interesting (and fairly long) article by a French ex-pat on French and Islamic culture.
It speaks to what I've been saying quite a while.
The European Muslim next door, is not the Somalian or Saudi Muslim.
Note that the Jewish Muslim next door also behaves similarly, and enjoys the same freedom, and inhabits the same positions in society.
The Jewish Muslim next door, is not the Palestinian Muslim.
As soon as people recognize this, and are willing to admit it, we can begin sensible policies and understand the complications of relations with the Middle East.
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Germany axe attack: Assault on train in Wuerzburg injures HK family
A teenage Afghan refugee attacks passengers on a train in Germany with an axe and a knife, wounding four, before being shot dead by police.
Shit.
A journalist with the national broadcaster ZDF tweeted that the attacker was a 17-year-old Afghan man.
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
To me, to hear people talking about acceptable sacrifices of their own citizens, it's indefensible.
Yeah, totally.
@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
It's "I want to
feel betterown a gun, so it doesn't matter if my neighbor dies".
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@another_sam said in Turkish Coup:
It's "I want to own a gun, so it doesn't matter if my neighbor dies".
- You could argue the same for owning a personal vehicle.
- We have a system in place that allows people who don't commit crimes to legally own a gun, and people who aren't reckless on the highway to own their own car. Both need to be registered. And the gun needs a background check. In that manner a gun has more restrictions than a vehicle.
- I would expect the same care to be taken for who we let into the country. I'm arguing against overlooking lack of id or other careless choices.
- I get just as frustrated when an alcoholic who's killed several people is still allowed to drive.
- I get just as frustrated when a criminal ends up with a gun because the local law enforcement doesn't report their crimes to the FBI for background checks.
- In the same manner, I get just as frustrated when a criminal immigrant or an overlooked lack of id or a fake id person enters and commits a violent crime.
So, I find myself to be pretty consistent in these regards.
In no way did I suggest that we should not allow refugees in.
In no way did I suggest we should allow everyone to have a gun or drive.
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@flabdablet said in Turkish Coup:
@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
the Jewish Muslim
fairly rare beast I would have thought
The Muslims comprise 17% of the Israeli population.[1] The majority of Muslims in Israel are Sunni Arabs, with an Ahmadiyya minority.[5] The Bedouin in Israel are also Arab Muslims, with some Bedouin clans participating in the Israeli army. The small Circassian community is composed of Sunni Muslims uprooted from the Caucasus in the late 19th Century.
That's right, Muslims serve in Israel's army.
Also, consider, the Muslim supporters of Israel outside of that country.
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
You could argue the same for owning a personal vehicle.
I could, but you're the one who put the inconsistent viewpoint forward, not I. If you were to make the argument to me, I would say that the positive values of the gun don't really compare to that of the motor vehicle. But your statement was a bit more absolute and "acceptable sacrifices of their own citizens, it's indefensible" doesn't allow for that consideration.
@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
Both need to be registered.
One has a highly visible registration number and can be easily checked by law enforcement, either manually or with automated systems. The other is usually concealed and registration numbers require close inspection. Again, these things don't compare, even if they were relevant.
@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
And the gun needs a background check
Your nutjob politicians voted against that just recently, didn't they? Or only in some states?
@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
I'm arguing against overlooking lack of id
Who's arguing for that? Determining if someone is genuinely a refugee is difficult but the lack of documentation doesn't make them automatically a refugee anywhere. On the other hand, refusing claims for asylum because they didn't bring documentation with them is just silly. Documentation implies planning and forethought and when people are dying sometimes drop everything and run is the best course of action.
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@xaade They might live in Israel, serve in the Israeli army, and even "support a homeland for the state of Israel", whatever the fuck that means, but if they are muslims that still means they're probably not very jewish.
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@another_sam said in Turkish Coup:
One has a highly visible registration number and can be easily checked by law enforcement, either manually or with automated systems. The other is usually concealed and registration numbers require close inspection. Again, these things don't compare, even if they were relevant.
Not really.
If you mean license tags, those are removable.
If you mean VIN numbers, those are just as obscure.@another_sam said in Turkish Coup:
Your nutjob politicians voted against that just recently, didn't they? Or only in some states?
No. Background checks are required in every state, and many of the states have background checks for personal exchanges, and inheriting arms as well.
And if you argue for private exchange background checks, which I'm totally ok with, they aren't enforceable.
So, the only argument left is to ban guns, and that isn't going to happen.
@another_sam said in Turkish Coup:
Who's arguing for that?
Greece did their fair share of that, which is how they're in the position they are in.
@another_sam said in Turkish Coup:
On the other hand, refusing claims for asylum because they didn't bring documentation with them is just silly.
Ok, so you say no one is arguing for overlooking the lack of documentation, and then you argue that not overlooking the lack of documentation is "silly".
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@tufty said in Turkish Coup:
if they are muslims that still means they're probably not very jewish.
Excuse me. I see what you were pointing out now, and the mistake I made.
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@tufty said in Turkish Coup:
if they are muslims that still means they're probably not very jewish.
There's religious Jew and there's ethnic Jew. Is it not possible to be ethnically Jewish yet religiously Muslim?
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
If you mean license tags, those are removable.
They are, and because they're highly visible it's obvious when they're removed. You can expect a roadside interview if you drive around for long without them.
@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
Ok, so you say no one is arguing for overlooking the lack of documentation, and then you argue that not overlooking the lack of documentation is "silly".
You need to read what I said again. The lack of documentation isn't a sufficient reason to reject a claim for asylum. I didn't say to just ignore the lack of documentation. There are many other ways to establish identity, background and need for asylum.
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@another_sam Well, yeah - given that the idea of jewish ethnicity is based on having a bloodline from the ancient israelites, i.e. something like 3000 years back or more, there's a good chance that we're all a bunch of hook-nosed bagel-dogs.
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@another_sam said in Turkish Coup:
They are, and because they're highly visible it's obvious when they're removed. You can expect a roadside interview if you drive around for long without them.
It's not hard to get new ones, even without obviously doing so.
Also, you can take them off another vehicle.
@another_sam said in Turkish Coup:
There are many other ways to establish identity, background and need for asylum.
Ok, so I think we've reasonably established that there are right ways to handle security and handle gun and vehicle availability, and there are wrong ways.
To me, it's reasonable to believe that Greece was not effectively controlling their borders.
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To me, it's unreasonable to expect tight border control from a country that's economically fucked over, especially when you're doing the fucking over yourself (you being the EU in this).
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
- In the same manner, I get just as frustrated when a criminal immigrant or an overlooked lack of id or a fake id person enters and commits a violent crime.
So, how often does this actually happen? Is this a real problem or one of those 1 in 10,000,000 cases?
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@Rhywden said in Turkish Coup:
So, how often does this actually happen? Is this a real problem or one of those 1 in 10,000,000 cases?
According to the US Government Accountability Office (report is a few years old now):
Further, the criminal alien population as a percentage of the total federal inmate population has remained relatively constant since 2001. In 2005, we reported that the overall percentage of the criminal alien population carcerated in federal prisons remained consistently around 27 percent of the total inmate population from 2001 though 2004
https://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/pages/txCriminalAlienStatistics.htm
According DHS status indicators, over 195,000 criminal aliens have been booked into local Texas jails between June 1, 2011 and June 30, 2016. During their criminal careers, these criminal aliens were charged with more than 520,000 criminal offenses. Those arrests include 1,042 homicide charges; 61,815 assault charges; 15,339 burglary charges; 61,385 drug charges; 631 kidnapping charges; 37,563 theft charges; 40,959 obstructing police charges; 3,449 robbery charges; 5,445 sexual assault charges; and 7,805 weapons charges.
...
According to DPS criminal history records, those criminal charges have thus far resulted in over 234,000 convictions including 437 homicide convictions; 23,166 assault convictions; 7,450 burglary convictions; 30,509 drug convictions; 217 kidnapping convictions; 16,957 theft convictions; 20,200 obstructing police convictions; 1,754 robbery convictions; 2,486 sexual assault convictions; and 3,274 weapons convictions.
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@boomzilla As we're talking about something concerning the EU, I don't think that your situation is applicable. Somewhat of a different situation, what with the drug trafficking and all.
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@Rhywden said in Turkish Coup:
Somewhat of a different situation, what with the drug trafficking and all.
It's more about slaves with the EU!
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@Rhywden said in Turkish Coup:
As we're talking about something concerning the EU
The conversation had drifted a bit to where it was including US gun laws.
@Rhywden said in Turkish Coup:
Somewhat of a different situation, what with the drug trafficking and all.
Maybe. I didn't see any sort of a breakdown saying how much of that was thought to be related to that. Certainly several recent high profile cases didn't.
Islam in Israel - Wikipedia
