Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.
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@boomzilla said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
@RaceProUK said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
They also have proper package managers; Windows doesn't.
Right, but those also handle any arbitrary thing. Windows updates is just supposed to keep the OS up to fucking date and it fucking sucks. It's worse than the java updater.
I see that you are a man who likes to live dangerously. I don't trust Oracle and I've never trusted java. I should know. I'm a java developer... BEWARE THE ABYSS!!!!
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@DogsB said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
I see that you are a man who likes to live dangerously.
Not really, but my eyes are not blind to Windows Won't Update.
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@RaceProUK said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
They also have proper package managers; Windows doesn't.
Now that they have Ubuntu on Windows, and use apt-get to install Linux tools, we can only hope they will start using dpkg to handle Windows update.
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@DogsB @DogsB said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
How is it working out for you. Do you game on it by any chance?
It's been fine, mostly. Up until a week or so it's been pretty solid, but something happened with Windows update and it started downgrading itself to consumer levels of .
I don't game on my laptop too much, but it doesn't perform any worse than before under Windows 8.1.
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@boomzilla said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Windows updates is just supposed to keep the OS up to fucking date and it fucking sucks.
A few months ago, a computer serving a display screen at the museum I sometimes do some volunteering for needed to be reinstalled from scratch because we couldn’t get some stuff to work right any other way. The hardware guy put Windows 7 on it, as I recall, and once that had been installed it still took a full day and a half to download and install all the necessary updates just for the OS. No idea on what kind of internet connection this was, but given the typical speeds in this country I doubt it was less than a few dozen megabits per second download speed.
So that left me kind of wondering … doesn’t MS do all-in-one update packages or something? I mean, this sounded to me like it downloaded and installed incremental updates one at a time instead of just grabbing the latest version only — I can’t think of another reason for it taking so long, anyway.
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Meanwhile, I've been trying to upgrade my work Win7 machine (I was told to do it, I don't care either way) but the installer gets stuck at "Starting Download" and never finishes. So apparently, Microsoft only wants people that don't want Win10 to get it.
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@Gurth said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
So that left me kind of wondering … doesn’t MS do all-in-one update packages or something?
They used to (they were called Service Packs), but for some reason they decided not to with Windows 7. I'm not sure why.
EDIT: actually I looked it up. They released one Service Pack for Windows 7, but no others. Again, I have no idea why this policy changed.
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@blakeyrat
Because they commit to some number of years of support after the last service pack. Releasing another service pack extends the support.Of course they could just release another one and say "nah, we're not extending support," but they'd catch shit for that too.
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@SirTwist Ah that makes sense, especially since they made the decision to start cutting-down their support timelines shortly after Windows 7 was released.
To anybody annoyed at Windows 7's lack of service packs, I have a simple solution: STOP USING IT! IT'S LIKE 3 VERSIONS BEHIND! JUST MOVE ON WITH YOUR LIFE!
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@SirTwist While MS don't do service packs anymore, they do still make updates that (in theory could) extend the support period; they do it via 'builds' that are effectively an in-place OS upgrade
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@SirTwist To anybody annoyed at Windows 7's lack of service packs, I have a simple solution: STOP USING IT! IT'S LIKE 3 VERSIONS BEHIND! JUST MOVE ON WITH YOUR LIFE!
When they ship a version that doesn't suck, people will upgrade to it.
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@TimeBandit said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
When they ship a version that doesn't suck, people will upgrade to it.
that's why i'm still using Windows 3.1
eversince 3.11 it's been downhill, and fast!
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@RaceProUK said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
They also have proper package managers
OSX doesn't come with one that I've ever found. It still solves the problem that Windows doesn't. Or didn't, maybe. I don't care enough about how Windows Update works these days.
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@sloosecannon said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Yeah, I'm torn between "It's a good thing that people get upgrades/updates" and "WTF why are you forcing me to do things???"
The things is, though, that there are techniques to do updates without reboots. Haskell has a library called
Safecopy
that lets you tie your data structures to specific versions, with the purpose of automagically translating/converting to newer versions of the structure when you update your libraries or programs or whatever. It's super handy when dealing with Haskell.So where's the .Net safecopy clone? Doesn't C# have multi-param type classes -- I mean, interfaces that accept dependent types?
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@boomzilla said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
It's worse than the java updater.
At least it doesn't change your browser search page on you.
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@Captain said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
So where's the .Net safecopy clone? Doesn't C# have multi-param type classes -- I mean, interfaces that accept dependent types?
Considering 99.5% of the updates made to Windows via Windows Update are in C++ code, I don't see how the heck that helps.
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@FrostCat said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
At least it doesn't change your browser search page on you.
Ah, yes, the soft bigotry of low expectations.
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@FrostCat said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
At least it doesn't change your browser search page on you.
Those things on the installer are words; you may want to read them
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@Captain said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
@sloosecannon said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Yeah, I'm torn between "It's a good thing that people get upgrades/updates" and "WTF why are you forcing me to do things???"
The things is, though, that there are techniques to do updates without reboots. Haskell has a library called
Safecopy
that lets you tie your data structures to specific versions, with the purpose of automagically translating/converting to newer versions of the structure when you update your libraries or programs or whatever. It's super handy when dealing with Haskell.So where's the .Net safecopy clone? Doesn't C# have multi-param type classes -- I mean, interfaces that accept dependent types?
Err, that's all nice and good, but that is kinda unrelated to what we were talking about.......
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@RaceProUK said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Those things on the installer are words
What things? I periodically download and install the offline installer, partly because I don't keep Java in the default location.
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Man, I suck at trolling…
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@RaceProUK said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
I suck at trolling…
I suck at humor.
@accalia sucks at spellring
@blakeyrat sucks at mind reading
...
Hey! We should start a club of suckers!
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@RaceProUK said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Man, I suck
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
We should start a club of suckers!
We could call it WTDWTF! :)
@loopback0 said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
@RaceProUK said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Man, I suck
I'm sure there's one person who doesn't mind…
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
@blakeyrat sucks at
mindreadingFTFY
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Well then, where's the C++ version of safecopy? Doesn't C++ have multi-parameter templates? And if not, why not?
All I'm saying is that what you need to do live, hot-swapping updates already exists (modulo being written in your language of choice). Migrations of live data structures is the tricky bit, and it's pretty straight-forward. Haskell does it -- and it's not particularly "special" in its ability. They just did it first-ish.
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@Captain said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Well then, where's the C++ version of safecopy? Doesn't C++ have multi-parameter templates? And if not, why not?
"Safecopy" is not something you can do globally at the language level in C++ because the binary representation of an object is part of the semantics of the language. Templates operate at compile time, creating types based on the template parameters, but don't do anything at runtime. If you add a field to a type, you have to recompile everything that uses that type because offsets and sizes have to be recomputed.
You can use interfaces, but then you have to design your system to be hot-swappable, adding some "version" interface to every type you want to be versionable, and making sure your libraries only ever expose these versionable elements. Microsoft did not choose to make Windows hot-swappable, so it has to be rebooted.
Although COM already does versioned structures and libraries.
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@Captain said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Well then, where's the C++ version of safecopy?
C++ does nothing that's "safe".
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@blakeyrat said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Service Packs
I always thought of Service Packs as basically the .1, .2, etc. versions of the OS.
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@loopback0 said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
OSX doesn't come with [a package manager] that I've ever found.
For applications, it doesn’t need to because each app contains all its dependencies (other than those provided by the OS) inside the application bundle, so there’s no need to check if library L needs updating before application A can run.
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@Gurth I know that. I was just pointing out that it doesn't have one.
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@Kian said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
"Safecopy" is not something you can do globally at the language level in C++ because the binary representation of an object is part of the semantics of the language. Templates operate at compile time, creating types based on the template parameters, but don't do anything at runtime. If you add a field to a type, you have to recompile everything that uses that type because offsets and sizes have to be recomputed.
Strictly, you can add, but only if you don't use subclasses. Things work better if you use a PIMPL but those come with their own consequences (in particular, they're heavier weight than simple classes as they force instance creation to do another independent allocation from the heap).
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@dkf said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
PIMPL
That's almost as bad as WIMP.
Why can't we as an industry come up with cool-sounding names for things?
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@RaceProUK said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Why can't we as an industry come up with cool-sounding names for things?
You mean like GIMP or GIT?
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@dkf And not forgetting that some servers are vulnerable to an attack called POODLE
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@RaceProUK Mind you, what's really bad is when you've got applications whose name basically has nothing to do with what the application does. Why? Because users have to play “guess what this does” in order to launch the silly things. For example, “Chrome Web Browser” is fine, but straight “Chrome” is not; what if I prefer molybdenum instead?
This sort of stupid infests the whole of our industry. Let's not have a cool name, or at least not just a cool name. Let's let people figure out what shit is as well…
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An hilariously bad thing about Microsoft Edge is that there is no option to "always ask where I want to download the file". They actually removed this feature from late IE versions, and never put it in Edge.
Which has the side-effect of making drive-by download attacks much easier, since all files can now be downloaded without user confirmation!
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@dkf said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Mind you, what's really bad is when you've got applications whose name basically has nothing to do with what the application does.
Tell me about it.
mocha
(test runner),chai
(assertion library),sinon
(mocking),gulp
(task runner),grunt
(task runner),istanbul
(code test coverage analyser), etc.; who would guess that they're Node packages useful for unit testing?
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@dkf said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
Strictly, you can add
Stricterly, you can append fields, and you also give up making arrays.
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@RaceProUK said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
who would guess that they're Node packages useful for unit testing?
oooh ooh! me! me!!!
..... wait..... oooooh you meant guess not know....
carry on then.
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@boomzilla said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
It's worse than the java updater
and that's already some pretty high-octane worse.
Just last night the Java uninstaller found yet another new and innovative way to fuck up my pre-shutdown silent Java update on one workstation out of 120, requiring me to fire it up manually and babysit it through.
I already have post-uninstaller cleanup code in place to handle cases where the Java uninstaller simply fails to do its job for mysterious reasons; this particular failure just hung the installer up completely, meaning my post-installer code never got to run at all.
On running it manually, it popped up a modal dialog complaining about a missing DLL. It doesn't do that when you run it under the SYSTEM account in a shutdown script. No, there it just hangs forever. So now I need to add a five minute watchdog timer to the script to deal with that failure mode. Grrrr.
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@dkf Come to KDE, as a bonus to all that everything is written in Mortal Kombatese. Kool stuff.
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@FrostCat said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
@boomzilla said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
It's worse than the java updater.
At least it doesn't change your browser search page on you.
No, that's what the Skype installer is for.
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@FrostCat said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
At least it doesn't change your browser search page on you.
any, and i mean ANY installer that changes your browser home page, with or without user confirmation, needs to DIAF
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@dkf said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
applications whose name basically has nothing to do with what the application does
It’s not as if that’s exactly a new phenomenon, though. What dBase did is easy enough to work out, but how about the almost-as-old Lotus 1-2-3? Okay, there’s a clue in that it has numbers in its name, but they could really refer to just about anything.
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@Gurth said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
I always thought of Service Packs as basically the .1, .2, etc. versions of the OS.
No, those are called OSRs and hadn't been done since like Windows 98.
Service Packs are literally just combining like 18 months of patches in a single install.
EDIT: arguably Windows XP SP2 was closer to an OSR than a Service Pack, but. It wasn't called an OSR. And it didn't really add features, it just turned a lot of them on by default that hadn't previously been on by default. So there.
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@dkf said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
You mean like GIMP or GIT?
You could do JavaScript single page app development and use Grunt or Gulp.
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@blakeyrat I'd have far more respect for those if they'd not half-assed the names and just called them Cunt and Swallow.
This would be a better world if it contained a really really good programming language called Cunt.
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@accalia said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
why did you register yourself as my PDF handler? you still can't handle them and i have this other one i want anyway.
I have set Chrome to open pdf, enough with Adobe's cloud thingy that used to be just acrobat reader.
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@dse said in Pressure to upgrade to Windows 10 ratchets up. AGAIN.:
I have set Chrome to open pdf
chrome does okay with PDFs.... though it does seem to much prefer downloading them to actually viewing them.... could be GPO at work forcing a setting though. i use an actual PDF editor at home because i'm not going to make editable form PDFs in chrome.... that's just not going to happen.