🔥 Yore driving, Deez roasted Nuts! 🔥
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If the wrong merging causes jams in front of the merge, of course it does.
Again, something I experienced repeatedly where idiot people merging in the wrong way caused jams whereas after the merge, I was significantly faster.
Unless the stacked traffic stops completely, the traffic in front of the merge always can become slower than behind it. It cannot become faster. But it can (and will!) become slower.
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Hold up.
A restriction causes higher traffic density and lower average speed (shockwaves) in the traffic approaching the restriction, and lower traffic density and higher average speed after passing it.
Yes or no?
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Density != shockwaves. Also: speed != shockwaves.
A shockwave is a travelling disturbance.
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I didn't mean that density and shockwaves are the same thing. Shockwaves are turbulence, and the restriction causes them. I'll modify the statement:
A restriction causes higher traffic density and lower average speed in the traffic approaching the restriction, and lower traffic density and higher average speed after passing it.
Yes or no?
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No, the restriction does not cause shockwaves. Idiot people merging wrong forcing others to brake - that causes them.
And if you're doing late merging, both density and speed will be the same in front of and during the restriction. Also, late merging reduces the chance of collisions because the order of merging is made clear.
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both density and speed will be the same in front of and during the restriction
Look, here's a simulation of a restriction caused by a cluster of slower-moving trucks. That caused some cars to slow down, which caused a shock wave, and now there's a jam there which is restricting the flow of traffic.
Traffic approaching (or, in) the restriction is slower and more dense. Traffic past the restriction is faster and less dense. Yes?
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Uh, that's not a proper model of lane merging. It's a model for shockwaves.
And again, if you're merging late the speed will be unaffected. That's why the model you linked is not a good fit.
Or don't your restrictions also have speed restrictions?
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Uh, that's not a proper model of lane merging. It's a model for shockwaves.
I know, but I wasn't able to find a proper model of lane merging, and I wanted to establish that we both understand how a restriction affects traffic generally.
if you're merging late the speed will be unaffected
If you're merging late then the speed is unaffected because you've already slowed down. You did that when you matched speeds.
Or don't your restrictions also have speed restrictions?
Sure, if you can even actually go that fast. When traffic in the slow area is moving as fast as it should, the merge usually isn't even an issue and both lanes just merge fairly nicely.
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Which part of "the traffic keeps flowing smoothly when late merging" opposed to "early merging causes jams" was too difficult?
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The part where people acting like an extra 0.5 lane mile of highway doesn't exist makes a huge difference on the traffic jam.
I mean, a larger difference than the animosity that you create if you pass them all in the left lane.
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a larger difference than the animosity created if you pass them all in the left lane.
It seems like either @Rhywden doesn't drive on major roads much, or he's just too busy focusing on the "these are the rules and the theory" and less on the "this is how people actually drive".
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To be fair, isn't he like, a professor or something? You get a little deep in the theory and you ain't never coming back out.
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@anotherusername said:
a larger difference than the animosity created if you pass them all in the left lane.
It seems like either @Rhywden doesn't drive on major roads much, or he's just too busy focusing on the "these are the rules and the theory" and less on the "this is how people actually drive".
No, I've actually driven quite a lot through one such a needlehole for about half a year once per day on our Autobahn. After two months the road guys wisened up and put up signs: "Don't merge yet, you idiots!"
The difference was like night and day.
But if you people insist on being morons, going "herp-derp, never mind the studies, I know all those guys are wrong!"...
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It seems like either @Rhywden doesn't drive on major roads much, or he's just too busy focusing on the "these are the rules and the theory" and less on the "this is how people actually drive".
:whynotboth.mp3:
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You get a little deep in the theory and you ain't never coming back out.
I don't tend to get stuck in the theory of driving when I'm sat in a traffic jam averaging like 6mph.
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I've actually driven quite a lot through one such a needlehole
So your experience consists mainly of a single data point, repeated over and over until you thought it was the only thing that exists.
And I'm over here trying to show you this black swan and you're like nope, that dude's an idiot.
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herp-derp, never mind the studies
The studies are irrelevant when the majority of drivers don't handle the situation that way.
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Well, unlike you I was able to actually experience the difference. So, what do you bring to the table?
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But if you're trying to pass as many people as possible before merging, my attitude switches to fuck you.
How do you distinguish between this and someone trying to merge the right way, i.e., as late as possible?
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@Rhywden said:
herp-derp, never mind the studies
The studies are irrelevant when the majority of drivers don't handle the situation that way.
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match speeds to the traffic in the right lane.
"I'll just mosey up this otherwise-empty lane at the 2mph speed of the full lane next to me, thus defeating the entire point of getting in the lane in the first place."
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A lot of time spent sitting in traffic jams where merging was not the bottleneck. Narrow lanes, too much traffic for the remaining lanes to service, idiots rubbernecking at the construction. Zipper merging is nice and all, but it doesn't help then.
Basically the second scenario that you refusing to admit exists.
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Yeah. No. I drive 50000 highway miles in a year. He's exactly right in that late merging works. 99.9 percent of all morons don't do it, but that makes it no less correct. In fact, it even makes it more beneficial until the rest of you wise up.
I cut a solid hour out this morning by blitzing past literally MILES of morons who had already merged right for a highway shutdown must exit situation. This is confirmed by my having arrived at work an hour before a coworker I had been following. It was actually more, because she never did reach the exit- they reopened the highway before she got there, and I took a very big detour.
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And doubling the length of the queue does help how, exactly?
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By fucking up traffic upstream and spreading the misery
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Can we jeff this merging stuff into another thread?
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Flagged 20 posts above this one, but mods are busy. ;)
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And doubling the length of the queue does help how, exactly?
It doesn't, but neither does pissing everyone off by passing everyone who's queued. And then you'll just create a shockwave behind you when you have to slow down again to match speeds with them in order to merge.
So what you do, which I've been saying all along: Drive at the same speed as the traffic in the slower-moving lane, even though you have a bunch of empty space in front of you. Then merge late, like you're supposed to. You won't create any shockwaves, plus the traffic behind you will probably do it the correct way too.
Or just pass everybody, slow down and create the shockwave, and push your way in at the last minute into the first opening you see. Piss everyone off and make them not want to let you merge in. That'll help.
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Parroting frostcat: If the lane on the right is at a crawl, like hell I will match their speed if there's 500 meters of empty lane in front of me.
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Then like hell will I let you get in front of me.
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He's exactly right in that late merging works. 99.9 percent of all morons don't do it, but that makes it no less correct.
I'm not saying it's wrong in theory. I'm just saying it's wrong in practice because almost nobody does it.
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Over here, you'll get a nice fine for not doing so.
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Why just me? If you're passing people then you're not zipper merging properly either.
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No, it works BETTER if you do it because not everyone does. My time is more valuable to me than not having a bunch of dipshits who don't know what they're doing annoyed by my innate superiority.
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Do I really need to quote our code of law again which states that you're to zip merge as late as possible?
If you're hindering me from merging you may end up losing your license for 6 months at the least.
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Zipper merge requires you to match speed with the other lane and find an opening. If you're passing instead of doing that then you're doing it wrong and fuck you asshole.
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Yes, I match speeds. In front of the obstacle. Not a mile before.
You seem to be labouring under the delusion that you have to match speeds all the way.
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FWIW I'm one of the people in the closing lane going to the end - so it works better for me too.
It just doesn't work generally.
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Yes, I match speeds. In front of the obstacle. Not a mile before.
If you slow down abruptly before merging, then you are the obstacle.
You seem to be labouring under the delusion that you have to match speeds all the way.
Not all the way. Just while you're in the queue.
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Yeessss, of course. I'm blitzing by with a delta-v of 150 km/h and then slam the brakes 20 meters in front of the merger.
Reality: Delta-v is 10 to 20 km/h while keeping an eye out for idiots who swerve to the left suddenly and then slow down without engaging the brakes.
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I'm blitzing by with a delta-v of 150 km/h and then slam the brakes 20 meters in front of the merger.
I see people do this all the time! Not sure what they're doing, they only gained two spaces from all that wasted fuel....
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10 to 20 km/h is enough to cause the traffic behind you to have to stop if traffic isn't moving very fast.
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Dude, now I have to ask: Do you actually own a driver's license? Because it doesn't seem like it.
Again: Not slamming the brakes.
Instead: Matching velocities by simply taking the foot of the gas pedal.
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It doesn't, but neither does pissing everyone off by passing everyone who's queued.
What stops the people who are queued from getting into the other lane and passing too?
I'm not going to feel bad about using an empty lane to pass morons who are waiting in a full lane for no reason.
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Not sure what they're doing
Going "this will get me there faster".
Half of you seem to think that the majority of people put more thought into how they behave on the road than they actually do. I'm not saying these people are right or that any of you are wrong. I'm just saying that's how it is.
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I'm not saying it's wrong in theory. I'm just saying it's wrong in practice because almost nobody does it.
Then answer my questions up-thread. Where are you supposed to merge if not the end of the lane? Am I supposed to get that information telepathically?
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@Rhywden said:
I'm blitzing by with a delta-v of 150 km/h and then slam the brakes 20 meters in front of the merger.
I see people do this all the time! Not sure what they're doing, they only gained two spaces from all that wasted fuel....
It gets better - there's a stretch of 10 km from my hometown to the next Autobahn, with a traffic light at the last crossing. People regularly overtake me at the beginning because I'm "only" doing 110 km/h (limit's 100) and then I meet them again at the traffic light.
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It gets better - there's a stretch of 10 km from my hometown to the next Autobahn, with a traffic light at the last crossing. People regularly overtake me because I'm "only" doing 110 km/h (limit's 100) and then I meet them again at the traffic light.
This always cracks me up. Granted, I'm only going faster because that's the minimum speed for overdrive, but if traffic allows, it's amusing to watch people rush forth for a mile only to be stopped because the city designers timed all the lights on that stretch of road to be the clock setter.
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Why is waiting in two full lines better than waiting in one, if the restriction is obviously further up the road? If there are 100 cars in front of you and cars are getting through the restriction at a rate of 10 per minute, you'll be in the queue for 10 minutes either way.
Anyway, matching speeds with the right lane and staying in the left lane will encourage the people behind you to use both lanes, which is what they're supposed to do. And then when traffic is using both lanes and both moving at the same speed, the zipper merge will work like it's supposed to.
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Indeed.
I've also found that the extra five minutes I could "save" by going faster than 130 km/h on our Autobahn simply aren't worth it.
Much less stressful to cruise along. And it also saves gas.
