WTF Paypal?
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So people who don't use PayPal: I'm genuinely interested to know what your alternative is.
Here, most serious online stores are connected to a company that sends out regular invoices, so I can choose to either give my credit card information to the store (If I know the store, I might do this since on occasion I've received the goods faster this way) or pay by invoice to this other company. If I have to buy stuff from outside the country I'll use my EuroCard/MasterCard since all charges are listed on the invoice I get from them, and I can then easily dispute anything out of the ordinary.
I've only ever used paypal once, when I ordered something from the US and they only accepted Paypal (November 2013).
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Even more so, at least here in Germany (and probably in NL as well) it's nearly impossible to find a bank willing to issue a MC/Visa (i.e. 'credit card-compatible', as I call it) debit card
That is truly bizarre. in the USA, it's expected by default that any bank at which you open a checking account will issue you a debit card linked to that account. What do they give you in Germany?
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My guess is that Germans use debit cards that aren't credit card-compatible. Real credit cards are not very common in Europe. You can get delayed debit (that is, your account is debited once a month, at a date of your choosing, which means you'll make it after you receive your monthly pay) for a higher fee, but there's no interest (like there would be on a real credit card).
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You can get delayed debit (that is, your account is debited once a month, at a date of your choosing, which means you'll make it after you receive your monthly pay) for a higher fee, but there's no interest (like there would be on a real credit card).
There's no interest if you use a real credit card in basically that same manner either. My account is debited once a month (I don't think I can necessarily select any date of my choosing, unless I wanted to try to remember to set up the charge manually each month instead of just having them automatically charge it on the due date). There's not a higher fee, and there's no interest because there's no balance carried month-to-month on the credit card. It's paid in full each month, and they don't charge any interest on the new balance; only on the balance carried from the previous month if it wasn't paid in full then.
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The higher fee is compared to an immediate debit card (which is the basic type of card where I live). I'm not sure you can select any date either, but monthly pay always comes in near the end of the month and the possible due dates are at the end or beginning of the month to reflect that, so you can always have a due date shortly after your monthly pay. I confess I don't know much about credit cards, since we don't use those around here.
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Here almost everyone gets paid weekly or biweekly, so it doesn't matter as much.
I actually don't know what the credit/debit fees are, because the merchant almost always pays them. I believe it depends on the transaction volume that the merchant handles and also on the transaction method (swipe + signature? swipe + postal code? swipe + CCID? chip reader?). Anyway, in rare cases you'll find a merchant who accepts a credit card but wants an additional 3% fee for processing it; usually they either absorb the fee or they just don't accept the cards at all.
From the user's perspective, you can charge up to your maximum credit limit, and at the end of each monthly billing cycle you get a statement showing the previous balance (unpaid from last month), the interest charged on that previous balance, and all the new purchases you've made during the current billing cycle. The total is your new balance, and if paid in full by the due date, the next month's previous balance will be $0.00 and you'll be charged no interest.
There may or may not be additional fees to use the card for international transactions, in an ATM, or for cash back in a transaction; those fees are charged to you and added to your balance. Some cards also have an annual fee. Often they have a rewards program, giving around 1% to 1.5% rewards that can be traded for cash back when you've accumulated enough points (say 2,000 points for $20 cash back); points can sometimes also be traded for merchandise, airline miles, gift cards, etc. (although then the points aren't always worth as much as they would be for cash). Basically you're just getting back part of the fee that they charged to the merchant.
So basically, at this point in the game, it's pretty easy for most people here to get a card with a reasonable line of credit, no annual fee, and a decent rewards program; if you use the card as if it's a debit card (i.e. don't spend money you don't have) and have it automatically withdraw once a month from your checking account then it doesn't cost extra and actually pays you back through the rewards program.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
10% fees aren't unheard of.
Wow, I've never heard 10%. They must reserve that for foreigners.
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Cancelling the card with pending transactions or getting the bank to perform a chargeback is likely going to flag the account with Paypal though, at which point they're known to go into full search&destroy mode -- hunting that money down with extreme prejudice.
You do NOT want to fuck with these people if the prospect is having your known bank accounts seized while PayPal takes their sweet time to 'investigate' and your mortgage and bills are going unpaid.
Seriously; they're called PayPal horror stories for a reason...
Which is EXACTLY-FUCKING-WHY NOBODY should use PayPal for ANYTHING
Can you IMAGINE a real bank getting away with that garbage?
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Firstly, cancelling a card with pending transactions will anger any company.
Secondly, banks won't get angry as they are the card issuers; PayPal is not.
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Ummmm... yes? Financial institutions that feel reasonably certain that you owe them money are not exactly friendly if you've disappeared and they can't collect it. That is not unique to PayPal.
Just try "falling" for one of those fake check scams... spend the money before it bounces, empty your account, and then disappear. Disregard the letters about your negative balance. Close any accounts linked to your old account. Just wait and see how hard the bank tries to collect.
Except don't, because it would be illegal. I shouldn't have to tell you that, though.
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Firstly, cancelling a card with pending transactions will anger any company.
Yes, but most companies will have neither the gall nor the clout to have your entire life's assets seized and held ransom while they take months on end
doing nothing aboutinvestigating the matter.Any normal company that claims you owe them money, also still has to operate through a collection agency or baillif which incorporates a system of integrity checks preventing the crap that financial instituions such as PayPal manage to get away with.
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Sure it's secure, but is it convenient?Convenience drives the consumers after all....
It's convenient enough for online payments issued from home or from the home of a trusted friend that so happens to have a similar hardware token from the same bank. (The tokens in question are generally generic, with the account-related data residing on the microchip embedded in the debit- or creditcard that has to be slotted into the token.)
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In Denmark most people are issued a so-called Dankort (Dancard) by their banks.
These are chp-and-pin debit-cards which are always (by law) without transaction fees, and are accepted by literally everyone.
Most banks also issue MasterCards, and at least used to issue either Visa Electron or Maestro. Danske Bank used to issue AMEX as well, but they appearantly got mad at each other.
The Dankort comes in two configurations, pure Dankort (not very common), and Visa/Dankort which acts as a Dankort in Denmark, and a Visa card everywhere else.In general, online stores use one of a few payment providers to handle the transactions, PayEx, DIBS, ePay, and have no contact with the CC information.
Offline stores are all linked up to NETS, which run the Dankort system and are owned by the banks. This also means that the stores never touch your CC-information either.
As for bank-security. All citizens are, if you want communication and monies from the state, required to have a socalled NemID (EasyID), which is issued by DanID (owned by NETS), and is a paper-based 2FA logon solution for anybody that wants to pay, but notably all banks and all websites run by the state or cities.
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Yes, but most companies will have neither the gaul nor the clout to have your entire life's assets seized and held ransom while they take months on end doing nothing about investigating the matter.
Asterix and Obelix can only work for so many people, after all.
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Costco UK only accept AMEX credit cards. Otherwise it's debit card or cash only.
That's the case in the US right now, but that partnership is ending soon. On March 31st (I believe that's the date), Costco is terminating that relationship. Starting April 1st, Visa will be the only credit card Costco (at least in the US) accepts. All Costco-branded AmEx accounts will be closed to new charges at that point.
They will offer a Costco Visa (that doubles up as your membership card) to those who want it, but I'm not going to bother because I've already got a Visa card from my bank.
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There's no interest if you use a real credit card in basically that same manner either
Most legitimate credit cards have a 25-day grace period where they don't charge interest. But if you carry a balance (even one cent) from one month to the next, the grace period will usually not be applied to new purchases - they'll incur interest charges immediately until you completely pay off the balance.
There are also some cards that have no grace period. Never get one of those cards. Which is why you always need to read the fine print.
in rare cases you'll find a merchant who accepts a credit card but wants an additional 3% fee for processing it
It is normally a violation of their merchant agreement to pass along the processing fees. But there are legal loopholes (e.g. they can offer a "cash discount", which might equal the credit processing fee.)
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It is normally a violation of their merchant agreement to pass along the processing fees. But there are legal loopholes (e.g. they can offer a "cash discount", which might equal the credit processing fee.)
That's not really the case anymore.
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There are also some cards that have no grace period. Never get one of those cards. Which is why you always need to read the fine print.
...wow. Never came across one of those, but don't doubt their existence. How much do you want to bet they are marketed HARD at low income peoplez?
@David_C said:
It is normally a violation of their merchant agreement to pass along the processing fees. But there are legal loopholes (e.g. they can offer a "cash discount", which might equal the credit processing fee.)
That's not really the case anymore.
There's still plenty of places that offer a cash discount, for this exact reason. Oddly, it's usually way higher than the processing fees, and usually restaurants. "Pick up and pay cash, 10% discount". I assume there's other "loopholes" being exploited by that 10% that makes it worth it.
As far as I know, offering a cash discount isn't against the merchant agreements; only charging extra for using a card.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
As far as I know, offering a cash discount isn't against the merchant agreements; only charging extra for using a card.
That used to be the case, and is probably why a lot of merchants (still) structure their prices/fees as you described. However, recent legislation and court rulings have changed it:
http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/2013/05/20/should-charge-our-customers-to-use-credit-cards.html:
In the past, Visa and MasterCard did not allow these penalties for card holders. "A merchant attempting to implement minimum amounts or charge an extra fee for a credit card transaction would run the risk of Visa or MasterCard pulling the merchant's right to accept credit cards at all," Bertke says.
However, that has changed. In July 2010, a provision of the Dodd-Frank Act went into effect, allowing merchants to set a credit card minimum purchase of up to $10, as long as they treat all cards the same.
In addition to setting a minimum charge, merchants may also charge a surcharge to accept credit cards. Charging customers extra for credit card transactions became legal in January 2013 as a result of a federal court case that challenged Visa and MasterCard's right to forbid such surcharges. "Visa/MasterCard lost this fight and a merchant is now allowed to add minimums or fees without the possibility of losing the right to process credit cards," says Bertke.
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Huh. So there's that. Don't know if
implemented the same laws. I do know some merchants say minimum $5 (or even $10), or charge a $0.25 fee for under. I guess it changed in Canada too, or the merchants just don't give no fucks.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
There's still plenty of places that offer a cash discount, for this exact reason. Oddly, it's usually way higher than the processing fees, and usually restaurants. "Pick up and pay cash, 10% discount". I assume there's other "loopholes" being exploited by that 10% that makes it worth it.
I can understand a cash discount greater than the card-handling fee. There's no risk of a chargeback when the customer pays cash, and the money is received immediately (instead of after a processing delay.) That's worth something on the bottom line.
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And now I can't disconnect my credit card. Great.
Um, bank, someone stole my credit card.
muffled
Yes, right off me. Like... grabbed it, it's gone.
response
Oh, a new card. Like with a new number and things. Old one will be denied on future purchases. Thanks.
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biweekly
As Stephen Colbert said on 2016-01-20, it's interesting that "biweekly" swings both ways.
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Payment in cash could allow them to partially dodge VAT/sales tax.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
Here is a
. It has all my monies. All of them. Plz take only $5.88. I'll leave it here while I eat.So much this. Why, in the age of asymmetric cryptography, do we still use such a system for paying online?
Why doesn't anybody yet provide a service along the lines of this:
- I go the an online store, select my stuff, click "pay".
- The online store sends me some kind of electronic bill, stating the amount to pay, plus probably some additional info such as the date and a transaction number or something. This bill is easily human readable so I can verify all the details if I feel like it (ideally plain text).
- I use the private key my bank / payment provider has issued me to sign this bill, and send back the signed file.
- The store uses the signed bill to get the money from my bank account and ships the ordered goods
- there is no fifth step
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Europe has this, using the the chip in EMV cards to do the digital signing.
America? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
(These are the services that provide it: 
. All of them suck.)
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Europe has this
OK? I am in Europe (geographically if not politically...) and haven't heard of it. I don't think my bank offers anything of the sort...
Of course it would have to be reasonably well implemented and integrated, but if so, it would certainly be much more convenient and secure than any online payment method I've heard of, for both the buyer and the seller.
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They already have that, and it's called "checks" (or "cheques" if you're on that side of the pond).
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Yeah, same basic principle (and the reason why this seems so darn obvious to me), but the only cheques I know of are the dead-tree variant, and those are kind of inconvenient to send via HTTPS.
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Checks can be submitted electronically, sure. It's actually more convenient that way because they work more like a debit card: the merchant gets immediate feedback on whether the account has sufficient funds or not.
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They will offer a Costco Visa (that doubles up as your membership card) to those who want it, but I'm not going to bother because I've already got a Visa card from my bank.
I don't have a membership, but my in-laws do, and it's my understanding that you get money back based on how much you spend. They get much more than the membership back. I guess if you have a better rewards program with your existing Visa card then definitely stay with that.
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Most legitimate credit cards have a 25-day grace period where they don't charge interest. But if you carry a balance (even one cent) from one month to the next, the grace period will usually not be applied to new purchases - they'll incur interest charges immediately until you completely pay off the balance.
That doesn't sound like a legitimate CC to me. They should still be giving you the grace period on interest for new purchases.
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That was my inclination as well; otherwise how could you ever pay it off fully? You'd have to stop using the card for a month in order to get it paid back to $0.00. Or just pay extra and end up with a small credit on your account, I guess...
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What do they give you in Germany?
Odd looks that someone like you has the audacity to apply for open an account.
They're actually discussing a law here in Germany that will force banks to give everyone the opportunity to have a bank account.
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Any normal company that claims you owe them money, also still has to operate through a collection agency or baillif which incorporates a system of integrity checks preventing the crap that financial instituions such as PayPal manage to get away with.
In Poland we have dysfunctional court system where simple cases as unpaid invoices take around 4 years on average. There have been stories of people losing their IDs or having them stolen, which IDs were subsequently used to get credits bank loans. then banks go after innocent people, they don't know what it's about, case lands in court, it takes years to settle. Meanwhile they can't get a loan from anyone and quite often have to deal with debt collectors.
So it seems that PayPal's a normal company… judging by Polish standards.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
say minimum $5 (or even $10), or charge a $0.25 fee for under
In Poland we have only minimums, no additional fees, fortunately.
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@David_C said:
Most legitimate credit cards have a 25-day grace period where they don't charge interest. But if you carry a balance (even one cent) from one month to the next, the grace period will usually not be applied to new purchases - they'll incur interest charges immediately until you completely pay off the balance.
That doesn't sound like a legitimate CC to me. They should still be giving you the grace period on interest for new purchases.
Go read the fine print on your cardmember agreement. Chances are that your card also will not give you a grace period on new purchases if you are carrying a balance. Most cards (at least in the US0 seem to have this policy.
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I can understand a cash discount greater than the card-handling fee. There's no risk of a chargeback when the customer pays cash, and the money is received immediately (instead of after a processing delay.) That's worth something on the bottom line.
Don't forget the bottom line value of the "transaction lubrication" of having a customer be able to buy something that they don't have enough cash in their wallet for. Also the convenience - I won't buy gas from a station that doesn't do pay-at-the-pump. The value they get for their transaction fee is my business.
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That doesn't sound like a legitimate CC to me. They should still be giving you the grace period on interest for new purchases.
In all the cards I've had in the last 30? years, there's never been a grace period if you're carrying a balance.
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Or just pay extra and end up with a small credit on your account, I guess...
That's usually what I did.
You'd have to stop using the card for a month in order to get it paid back to $0.00.
Even that wouldn't work - because you're still accruing interest up until they process your payment. Back when I first had a card, I think by not using it for 2 or 3 months and paying in full, the accrued amount finally was small enough I had a 0 balance.
Now, I just make sure I never carry a balance!
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I guess you're right; that does appear to be how "average daily balance (including new transactions)" is calculated.
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In all the cards I've had in the last 30? years, there's never been a grace period if you're carrying a balance.
Could be I'm misremembering.
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That's how iDeal works, more or less:
- I go to a website, select my purchases, select payment using iDeal and my bank
- I am redirected to my internet banking environment, on my bank's domain. Page lists the name of the merchant, description and value of the transaction
- I enter authorization using the same mechanism I use to log into e-banking
- I am redirected back to the merchant, merchant has received confirmation of payment, and the payment is visible in my e-banking overview.
- I don't have a fifth step either
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I blame it on the fact that I can't remember the last time I didn't pay the balance in full. After the first or second time I forgot, I just put it on automatic withdrawal and left it alone.
I did have one oopsie moment after that; I manually scheduled a payment on top of the automatic payment, so I double-payed that month's bill. And... it was right after I'd had a large purchase. I had a positive balance on that card for the next 4 months...
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In addition to setting a minimum charge, merchants may also charge a surcharge to accept credit cards. Charging customers extra for credit card transactions became legal in January 2013 as a result of a federal court case that challenged Visa and MasterCard's right to forbid such surcharges.
However, as of 04-2015 in the EU it is illegal for payment service providers to charge payees with transaction fees that exceed 0.3% of the transaction sum for credit cards and 0.2% for debit cards, first codified in Regulation 2013/0265 (COD).
The Directive 2011/83/EU and the Directive (EU) 2015/2366 make it illegal for a payee to surcharge a paying customer for more transaction fees than the payee itself had to pay to the payment service provider.
In effect, that means the 0.2% and 0.3% caps apply to consumers as well.
Moreover, Regulation (EU) No 260/2012 as referered to in 2015/2366 tightens the bolts further. It states that for direct debit transactions that remain within the union, the payee may never incur more fees than the cheapest representative payment service provider would levee on them.
The Directive (EU) 2015/2366 also needs the payee to communicate any possible surcharges to the customer up front before entering the payment transaction. Any surcharges after the fact, when already in the payment flow, are under no obligation to be paid, period.
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Payment in cash could allow them to partially dodge VAT/sales tax.
So the "bottom line" is actually underneath the table, then. ;)
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I don't have a membership, but my in-laws do, and it's my understanding that you get money back based on how much you spend. They get much more than the membership back. I guess if you have a better rewards program with your existing Visa card then definitely stay with that.
Pretty much. There's two ways of getting cashback from Costco
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Upgrade to an "Executive" membership. In
it's $55 for a normal membership, $110 for an executive. You get 2% of all purchases back as in-store credit in a lump sum, once a year, right around when your membership is due. So as long as you're spending $2750 a year or more, you'll make up the difference in the cost in the two memberships. I probably spend that much in milk and pre-natal vitamins alone. Get any sort of furniture or large meat purchase-- easy. You also get some exclusive coupons and I think access to some travel insurance and other services. -
Get their branded credit card. Like all cards, you get about 2% back on ALL purchases made on it. I think they sometimes offer things like "get 3% on gas purchases", etc. When they switched from Amex to Mastercard, they had an offer "get double the amount back for 3 months please for the love of god get our new credit card". This stacks with #1. Except I believe you get a straight cash-back in the form of a check, rather than in-store credit.
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Which reminds me, doesn't PayPal still have this "rule" that they may hold your account hostage for 3 months if they find something "suspicious"?
That alone is a good reason to avoid them like the plague.
They're also using moderately useless support drones - when I tried to buy something from eBay once (for an item only available by paying with PayPal), PayPal accepted neither my bank account nor my credit card.
The reason? "Computer says no."
It did not become any more coherent or enlightening.
