My colleague's Mac is TRWTF
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Just because Apple decided to do things one way in 1980-ies, it doesn't mean we have to do it the same way in 2010-s, if there's a better way.
Which of the behaviors you've complained about is worse? So far you've only bitched about different.
I don't think you fully understand how early Apple was in GUIs. They inventedripped off alla lot of this shit from Xerox.
Blah blah, if you compare a PARC (or even a LISA, which is closer to the PARC) to a Macintosh, the difference is staggering. Xerox provided a blueprint; Apple did all the hard work needed to turn it into a useful system.
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Which of the behaviors you've complained about is worse? So far you've only bitched about different.
I would definitely argue home/end not operating on the line is worse and not just different. At least by my use, I I'd guess I want to do start/end of line more than start/end of the document by a factor of... 5:1 at least, and that's ignoring situations where they're equivalent. More common should mean easier, not harder. (Danger being equal.).
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"line" isn't really a measurement in the MacOS WYSIWYG way of thinking. There's only "document" and "paragraph", really. I mean if you make the window wider, suddenly the whole thing re-wraps, and now your "lines" are all different.
MacOS wasn't written for software developers.
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I am yet to figure out why I would want the trash/recycle bin/etc.
All it has ever done for me is make me momentarily confused about why the 11.6 billion gigs of junk I just deleted didn't free any disk.
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The point is is defers freeing the disk until you actually need it.
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"line" isn't really a measurement in the MacOS WYSIWYG way of thinking. There's only "document" and "paragraph", really. I mean if you make the window wider, suddenly the whole thing re-wraps, and now your "lines" are all different.
Navigating to the start and end of a line isn't just helpful for programmers. I use home/end when writing English text quite a bit. The fact that things move around based on window width isn't particularly relevant unless pressing home/end changes that width; it just changes in what situations I use it.
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If I'm deleting things, it's because I need it now.
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I've pontificated on this subject before, and have found no reason to change my view.
Who’s asking you to?All hail the One True Mouse
I own one of those. I prefer the shape of the Serial Mouse, though.All your points come down to "that's how Macs' have always done it, therefore it's correct."
It is when you’re using a Mac. You seem to be forgetting that “standard behavior” is relative to the conventions of the OS you’re using — it may not be the same aswhat you’re used tounder Windows or your favourite Linux GUI but that doesn’t make it wrong. Well, except of course to computer geeks, where everything that doesn’t work the way they expect it to, is utterly and inescapably wrong, and so is everyone who tries to explain.Having home jump to the start of file instead of start of line is madness. Whenever they added it, they fucked it up.
Before you rail against something, you may want to see what it actually does. No, the ↖︎ key doesn’t jump to the start of the file in the way that Ctrl+Home does on Windows. What it actually does is scroll the viewport to the start of the file — the insertion point stays where it is. This is subtly different, but enough to invalidate your point as having been made by someone who doesn’t actually understand what he’s going on about.¹To move the insertion point to the start of the file, you use Command-Up, to move it to the start of the line is Command-Left — which IMHO shows Apple put more thought into keyboard navigation than Microsoft (or maybe IBM, not sure if this is CUA standard or not) did, since you can move the cursor anywhere by resting one hand on the modifier keys and one on the arrows, and don’t need to move your hand back and forth between the arrow keys and the Home/End/Page Up/Page Down keys at all. I know I usually need to glance at the keyboard to make sure my fingers are on the correct keys if I have to do that, and I suspect I’m not alone in that.
¹ Mentioning Word for Mac to support your argument here doesn’t count, as it uses Windows conventions for a lot of things, including much keyboard navigation.
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Which of the behaviors you've complained about is worse? So far you've only bitched about different.
The OSX way is objectively worse as it is missing features and cannot add them.
On Windows I have :
Arrow - move the carrot 1 glyph
Ctrl & Arrow - move 1 word
Home/End - move to beginning/end of line
Ctrl & Home/End - move to beginning/end of documentAdd the Shift modifier and it selects as well.
How does OSX move the caret by one word?
PS: If you're suggesting that lines aren't important then you've never met a human.
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@blakeyrat said:
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you've never met a human.Generally, I'd say that was very unlikely, but in this case ...
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Before you rail against something, you may want to see what it actually does. No, the ↖︎ key doesn’t jump to the start of the file in the way that Ctrl+Home does on Windows. What it actually does is scroll the viewport to the start of the file — the insertion point stays where it is. This is subtly different, but enough to invalidate your point as having been made by someone who doesn’t actually understand what he’s going on about.¹
I'm typing this on a Macbook right now (so no home key, so I didn't know about this behaviour) and what you're describing is actually worse and more ridiculous than the original complaint.
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How does OSX move the caret by one word?
Isn't it still Option-Left/Option-Right?
Look, I don't use Macs anymore, because OS X sucks weasel dick, but I'd be surprised if they removed that combo.
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*ignoring 40 or so posts*
@Gurth said:Not that you’ll agree, but I actually find them more natural: mouse cursor over the web page, swipe upward and the page moves up on my screen. Makes more sense to me than put the mouse curser over the web page, then swipe to control the button in the scroll bar that the cursor is not hovering over.
I have a semi-elder neighbor who I sometimes help with various computer problems - mostly printing stuff from internet. He has the same understanding of what "up" and "down" means as you seem to have, which confuses me like hell every time he tells me to scroll the page up.
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The OSX way is objectively worse as it is missing features and cannot add them.
Like?Arrow - move the carrot 1 glyph
Same on OS X.Ctrl & Arrow - move 1 word
Option-left and -right.Home/End - move to beginning/end of line
Command-left and -right. (Or Ctrl+A and Ctrl+E if you like Emacs.)Ctrl & Home/End - move to beginning/end of document
Command-up and -down.There’s also Option-up and -down to move to the start and end of the paragraph (or start/end of next paragraph if you’re already there). Add shift to select, just like you’re used to.
If the OS really can’t do a keypress you need, you can always try defining it in defaultkeybindings.dict.
what you're describing is actually worse and more ridiculous than the original complaint.
How so? The keys on a Mac that correspond to the Home/End/Page Up/Page Down keys on a “PC keyboard” don’t control the text insertion point, they control the viewport. This lets you scroll up and down to see what’s elsewhere in the document and then continue typing where you left off — or click in the viewport with the mouse and type where you clicked. I find this much more convenient than the insertion point moving as well, because I spend much of my time writing and editing things (not code) that need to be consistent with other things already written before or after in the same document. If OS X had no easily-pressed key combos to move the insertion point in a similar manner, then I’d agree that it’s worse than the “Windows way”, yes.I'd be surprised if they removed that combo.
They haven’t. I have only limited experience with Mac OS ≤ 9 but keyboard navigation on those seems to work exactly the same as in OS X (actually the other way round, to be more accurate).He has the same understanding of what "up" and "down" means as you seem to have, which confuses me like hell every time he tells me to scroll the page up.
I can’t remember ever thinking of “scrolling up” as doing anything else than wanting to see what’s toward the top of the document. The phrase has never meant to me something like “use an upward motion on the scroll wheel” or “move the scrollbar slider upward”, even before Apple reversed the scroll direction on my computer (something that took me a few days to get used to, but seems natural enough now).
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I can’t remember ever thinking of “scrolling up” as doing anything else than wanting to see what’s toward the top of the document.
Same here, except...The phrase has never meant to me something like “use an upward motion on the scroll wheel” or “move the scrollbar slider upward”
...I completely disagree with the statement here. Scroll bar is named like that because it's used for scrolling documents. Moving the scroll bar up is intuitively connected with scrolling up. Same with scroll wheel, except it's even stronger because moving the scroll wheel up is itself called scrolling up. That's all very intuitive, and thus the reverse behavior is by definition counterintuitive. You can get used to it of course, but the very fact you have to get used to it makes it worse solution. Compare it to airplane controls in video games - if someone has never been piloting anything real or virtual in xir life, ze will have to learn the counterintuitive pattern of "upward control = downward movement". It's very easy, but still something to learn - if the planes had it the other way around ze wouldn't have to learn anything at all.
Side note - I must have been mistaken in my previous post, because my neighbor scrolls up when he want to read the bottom.
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“Recent” being about five years ago here … Not that you’ll agree, but I actually find them more natural: mouse cursor over the web page, swipe upward and the page moves up on my screen. Makes more sense to me than put the mouse curser over the web page, then swipe to control the button in the scroll bar that the cursor is not hovering over.
They changed it to match iOS. One day the prophet wakes up with a revelation about the true scrolling direction, the natural way, exactly how God intended men to treat mice. He has found the truth and that everyone before him was wrong, including himself and his flock. But belief in the right thing™ is strong, fans all over the mac-dom take on the new way of life, with a little pain in the ass at first (like all true believers they try to enjoy and rationalize it), but then their brain flips a switch and they get enlightened. With additional benefit that these brand-loyal customers can no longer tolerate the way disbelievers treat their mice, the cult remains strong and takes pride in their sense of eliteness.
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Moving the scroll bar up is intuitively connected with scrolling up.
You’re right, for some reason all this talk about “normal” and “reverse” scrolling had me confused about which way the button in the scroll bar moves.As for the scroll wheel, I think it’s counter-intuitive only if you think of it as using the scroll wheel rather than pushing the page. If I swipe my finger over my mouse (or a scroll wheel) to scroll the page, I consider that analogous to moving the page with my finger, not with moving the scroll wheel that in turn moves the page. Same as moving the mouse is analogous to moving the mouse pointer, not to moving something that in turn moves the mouse pointer.
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A sermon that can, of course, just as easily be flipped around to apply to those who insist that the “traditional” way is the One True Scroll.
In the end it doesn’t matter one bit, except if you have to use a computer that does it the other way around than you’re used to. If you never use {OS X | Windows | …}, you don’t have much right to complain about its way of scrolling because it doesn’t affect you — it’d be like complaining that car manufacturer A puts the reverse on the right of the shift pattern when your car from manufacturer B puts it on the left and you never drive a brand A car. OTOH if you regularly have to use both, it’s a pain in the ass to have to remember you’re not on {OS X | Windows | …} now so you have to move your finger the other way. Not to mention that if it’s all on your own computers, then just make them both work the same way and you’re done too.
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It is only OSX that really does call it natural in their settings menu! otherwise agreed, neither one is the one true way. Like religions, they are all made-up and only care about a loyal customer base. However, whereas it is easy to develop for Windows/Linux in either one of them, the OSX cult is like the Scientology, thou shalt not cross-compile with your neighbor's PC. Development needs at least a mac mini with a sane keyboard and mouse, and lots of tweaks and apps to keep one's sanity.
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It is only OSX that really does call it natural in their settings menu!
I agree the name is somewhat pretentious, but OTOH, I’m struggling to come up with a better one that isn’t cumbersome.Development needs at least a mac mini with a sane keyboard and mouse, and lots of tweaks and apps to keep one's sanity.
This is basically the same complaint as the one that started this thread, and I feel the problem again isn’t the OS, but unfamiliarity with it combined with a much greater familiarity with another OS than most users have. That leads to complaints that things don’t work or aren’t located as they “should” — when in fact they work and are located exactly as and where they should on the OS being used. One solution is to configure things the way you’re used to from the other OS, but IMHO that’s only a good idea if you only use the current one occasionally. If you’re going to be using it all the time, in the long run you’ll be far better off learning its conventions.That doesn’t mean there may not have been any stupid decisions made by the designers — but it’s not a legitimate complaint to call something stupid just because it works differently from some other OS as if that other OS is perfect.
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As for the scroll wheel, I think it’s counter-intuitive only if you think of it as using the scroll wheel rather than pushing the page.
Scroll wheel doesn't push anything. Scroll wheel scrolls.If I swipe my finger over my mouse (or a scroll wheel) to scroll the page, I consider that analogous to moving the page with my finger
I don't, for a very trivial reason - moving the page with a finger, or mouse pointer, has the very interesting characteristic that the point that's under finger/pointer when you start moving ends up unter finger/pointer when you're done. Scroll wheel/Magic Mouse are detached from screen, so you lose this little but significant detail, which makes it completely different.Again, you can get used to it. But I'd rather like to not have to get used to anything.
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Scroll wheel doesn't push anything. Scroll wheel scrolls.
Macs are optimised for working with touchpads on Apple laptops because that's what most people use (who use OSX at all)1. While yes, you can plug a mouse with a scrollwheel in, it's not a principal use case and so it's a long way down the pole when it comes to development and tuning effort.
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1Or they're using one of the desktop Macs and probably a weird Mac mouse. Some people have far more money than sense.
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Oh, I misread @Gurth's post. I thought ze's talking about scroll wheel, not gesture-imitating-scroll-wheel-on-magic-mouse-tm. Still, both magic-mouse-tm and regular touchpad are still missing this visual feedback that I was talking about, so making them work like tablet touchscreens doesn't make them intuitive. Though I must admit that with touchpad, the "up=up" way of scrolling isn't at all intuitive either. Which makes magic-mouse-tm objectively worse than regular mouse with regular scroll wheel, because no matter what you do, it won't be intuitive.
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Scroll wheel doesn't push anything. Scroll wheel scrolls.
So scrolling a page on your screen isn’t equivalent to pushing a piece of paper to get a better look at another part of it?moving the page with a finger, or mouse pointer, has the very interesting characteristic that the point that's under finger/pointer when you start moving ends up unter finger/pointer when you're done. Scroll wheel/Magic Mouse are detached from screen, so you lose this little but significant detail, which makes it completely different.
Scroll wheel, I’d kind of agree with you, because it stays put and feels like you’re turning a wheel. For a touchpad or Magic Mouse, not really. How far the page moves depends on how far I move my finger over the mouse’s surface (remember that nearly all of it is basically a touchpad), and the overall impression it gives is of moving the page with your finger in much the same way as you would push a piece of paper across a table.magic-mouse-tm and regular touchpad are still missing this visual feedback that I was talking about, so making them work like tablet touchscreens doesn't make them intuitive.
Um … look at screen, move finger across mouse, stuff on screen moves. That seems visual feedback to me.because that's what most people use (who use OSX at all)
That makes it sound like most people buy a Mac and then immediately stick another OS on it.Or they're using one of the desktop Macs and probably a weird Mac mouse. Some people have far more money than sense.
Yeah, let’s flog that horse again. I’ve been using Macs for the last decade not because I find OS X easier to work with than Windows or Linux, but because I have more money than I know what to do with. Yep, that must be it. No, wait, I must have bought them because I like to show off my cool Apple products so I can be part of the hip young in-crowd too. Now where’s did I put my turtleneck?
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the overall impression it gives is of moving the page with your finger in much the same way as you would push a piece of paper across a table.
Except the "the stuff under my finger stays under my finger" part.Um … look at screen, move finger across mouse, stuff on screen moves. That seems visual feedback to me.
Well, yes, there is some feedback, but not the kind you get on real smartphone/tablet/paper sheet.That makes it sound like most people buy a Mac and then immediately stick another OS on it.
I heard about more people doing this than not doing this. But this might be cognitive bias.I’ve been using Macs for the last decade not because I find OS X easier to work with than Windows or Linux, but because I have more money than I know what to do with.
TBH, I see no other reason than money to burn. Basic OS stuff is basic*, and advanced stuff is very application-specific, so the ease of use argument works only if you're a toddler, a retired grandpa, or using an OS-specific software without good Windows alternatives, which is an application problem rather than OS problem. And if by ease of use you actually mean your comfort within the environment, which is most likely the case, then continuing this argument is pointless because either you or the other side (or both) are fanboys of one solution that won't ever acknowledge there might be a better way, and there's no way of knowing which side it is.* - doesn't apply to Linux
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I see no other reason than money to burn.... the ease of use argument works only if you're a toddler, a retired grandpa, or using an OS-specific software without good Windows alternatives,
There is another ease-of-use argument in favor of Apple. My ex bought a Mac, despite my advice against it. The key factor for her was that for an extra $100 (or whatever it was) when she bought it, she got basically unlimited tech support whenever the Apple store is open. Other than being expensive, this is a good thing, because if she had a Windows computer, she would expect me to do telephone tech support. However, I don't know Macs, so she doesn't expect me to help her. (Unfortunately for her, Apple's unlimited tech support does not include fixing it when she drops it.)
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I see no other reason than money to burn. Basic OS stuff is basic*, and advanced stuff is very application-specific, so the ease of use argument works only if you're a toddler, a retired grandpa, or using an OS-specific software without good Windows alternatives
TBH, Apple hardware is definitely superior to the alternatives (I would say 1.5x better in quality), whereas the price is twice. So yes if you have money it makes sense to buy one and then if you (like me) do not like the OS, install an alternative.
If you happen to meet anyone working in a company that makes parts that Apple use (wifi, haptics, ...), just ask them, Apple goes through every line of their code (after NDA and stuff) and tests the hell out of their device, it usually is irritating for the third party but that is the extra-mile that makes the end result better.
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TBH, Apple hardware is definitely superior to the alternatives (I would say 1.5x better in quality)
The problem with this statement is, you're comparing one PC configuration with thousands upon thousands components that can make up a computer in various combinations. Yes, I know I can't have Apple™ quality for $250, but I can't imagine what a Mac can give me that I cannot have in a $1000 fructose-free computer.If you happen to meet anyone working in a company that makes parts that Apple use (wifi, haptics, ...), just ask them, Apple goes through every line of their code (after NDA and stuff) and tests the hell out of their device, it usually is irritating for the third party but that is the extra-mile that makes the end result better.
This certainly improves quality (or more specifically - guarantees some degree of reliability, which is just one of the ways people measure quality), but it's only possible because there are only a handful of setups.
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Well, yes, there is some feedback, but not the kind you get on real smartphone/tablet/paper sheet.
Have you actually used a Magic Mouse¹, or are you arguing from theory?¹ For more than a few moments at a store or someone else’s computer, that is.
I heard about more people doing this than not doing this.
I highly doubt the majority of [url=http://www.computerworld.com/article/2876795/amid-blow-out-quarter-apple-barely-mentions-mac-sales.html]20 million Macs a year[/url] get another OS installed on them as the primary system.Basic OS stuff is basic*
No, basic OS stuff is exactly where the principle ease of use comes from. Take the keyboard shortcuts stuff that I’ve been talking about above: to do the full range of of navigation on Windows, you need to move your right hand between the arrow keys and the Home/End/etc. block, and many people will have to look at the keyboard to do that correctly; this wastes effort and time. On a Mac, you can keep both hands in the same locations on the keyboard to go anywhere the navigation keys will let you.OS-specific software without good Windows alternatives
You’re arguing that Windows is the fallback for anything else? “If I can’t do it on my OS of choice, I’ll use Windows”? At least you could have said “… without good alternatives on another OS”.if by ease of use you actually mean your comfort within the environment, which is most likely the case, then continuing this argument is pointless because either you or the other side (or both) are fanboys of one solution that won't ever acknowledge there might be a better way
Ah, the fanboy card. I was waiting for that to come up now the “more money than sense” one had already been played. At least you acknowledge that Windows people can be fanboys too, but I very much deny it applies to me. I use OS X because I feel most comfortable using it, based on a good deal of experience with both Windows and OS X, as well as a few flavours of Linux to a lesser extent. If, by the time I need a new computer, I’ve been exposed to an OS that I feel even more comfortable with, I’d have no compunction about switching to that. That’s part of what got me to buy a Mac in the first place: twenty years ago, I felt Windows 95 was the best thing ever — coming from 3.11, it probably was. A decade on, I had changed my mind about it and its successors. Yet these days I wonder what had happened if I’d ever got to use RiscOS in the ’90s, instead of only getting to play with it just a couple of years ago.However, just like with the scroll wheel, I get the distinct impression I’m the only one here arguing from that kind of experience. I’m not trying to evangelise or convert anyone to the One True OS (Whatever That May Be). I’m just pointing out the ways in which I think several of you are barking up the wrong tree through lack of first-hand experience.
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it's only possible because there are only a handful of setups.
that, and third parties rather replace all their R&D team than loose Apple as a customer. I am not arguing why others cannot achieve this level of quality; yes it is much harder to support all PCs (Windows) or all PCs plus most phones, my fridge and your car (Linux), but if one is willing to pay the extra for a good desktop/laptop then Apple is certainly the choice.
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It is when you’re using a Mac. You seem to be forgetting that “standard behavior” is relative to the conventions of the OS you’re using — it may not be the same as what you’re used tounder Windows or your favourite Linux GUI but that doesn’t make it wrong. Well, except of course to computer geeks, where everything that doesn’t work the way they expect it to, is utterly and inescapably wrong, and so is everyone who tries to explain.
@Gurth said:Before you rail against something, you may want to see what it actually does. No, the ↖︎ key doesn’t jump to the start of the file in the way that Ctrl+Home does on Windows. What it actually does is scroll the viewport to the start of the file — the insertion point stays where it is. This is subtly different, but enough to invalidate your point as having been made by someone who doesn’t actually understand what he’s going on about.¹
Lot of words for pedantic dickweedery.
How are you not bored typing all this pointless shit? I needed like 3 days to gather motivation to get back into this thread.
To move the insertion point to the start of the file, you use Command-Up, to move it to the start of the line is Command-Left — which IMHO shows Apple put more thought into keyboard navigation than Microsoft (or maybe IBM, not sure if this is CUA standard or not) did, since you can move the cursor anywhere by resting one hand on the modifier keys and one on the arrows, and don’t need to move your hand back and forth between the arrow keys and the Home/End/Page Up/Page Down keys at all. I know I usually need to glance at the keyboard to make sure my fingers are on the correct keys if I have to do that, and I suspect I’m not alone in that.
¹ Mentioning Word for Mac to support your argument here doesn’t count, as it uses Windows conventions for a lot of things, including much keyboard navigation.
Blah blah blah, in short on Mac you need to use two hands to perform an often used operation, while on Windows/Linux you can use one. In return you get this stupid "scroll viewport" or whatever bullshit operation occupying a whole special key for no reason.
Instant fail, Apple. Instant fail.
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However, just like with the scroll wheel, I get the distinct impression I’m the only one here arguing from that kind of experience. I’m not trying to evangelise or convert anyone to the One True OS (Whatever That May Be). I’m just pointing out the ways in which I think several of you are barking up the wrong tree through lack of first-hand experience.
While I don't have Mac hardware, I do have several VM-s and a hackintosh. I did my few months of full Mac immersion and will probably do it again. I figured out how to install homebrew and set up windows tiling and convert most shortcuts to what I'm used to. So in the end, I had an OS I could use to get work done without too much fiddling.
So after all that, Mac is just OK. It has an OK terminal support, but linux is clearly better there. OS X desktop has some excellent ideas and benefits. It's definitely more polished than any Linux I tried. But Windows is just as polished, and it also has better application support and general workflow.
I can see how, with some tweaks, Mac can be a pretty viable option for me. It's just not good enough to soak up the switching costs. For now.
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occupying a whole special key for no reason.
Not anymore, because Apple like to remove keys (and sockets) and that's one of the victims.
That habit makes keyboard mapping for software that has lots of functions really hard - especially on French Macs, though that's their own fault for what they did with the numbers.
Apple hardware just isn't for professionals anymore.
It used to be better in some cases to spend the little extra on Apple hardware because of warranty and build quality, but now you can't connect anything to the Mac so the "little" has become "a lot", plus carrying a stack of peripherals just so you can plug in a network, keyboard with enough keys, mouse/trackball or even a USB stick.
Better to put the price difference in a tin.
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Too many small points. I'm gonna make Jeff proud and reply to many things at once…
Yeah, let’s flog that horse again. I’ve been using Macs for the last decade not because I find OS X easier to work with than Windows or Linux, but because I have more money than I know what to do with.
FWIW, I use a Mac, and have done for many years.
Specifically, a Mac laptop, and they're Apple's largest-selling full computers (though nowhere on the scale of their phones and tablets, of course). The important thing to realise here is that OSX is tuned for the laptop experience, much more so than Windows is.Well, yes, there is some feedback, but not the kind you get on real smartphone/tablet/paper sheet.
It's not the same as on a smartphone, but it feels very similar. The two-finger-to-scroll gesture handling definitely seems better on OSX than on any Windows-based laptop I've ever tried, but I've not tried a modern expensive Win laptop so I don't know if my impression is just happenstance.
I can't imagine what a Mac can give me that I cannot have in a $1000 fructose-free computer.
Better component integration. Duh!
the keyboard shortcuts stuff
It's important to realise that keyboard shortcuts are a bit different between OSX and Windows. Bitching about them not being the same is pointless. Instead, each set has to be judged on its own internal consistency. A feature-by-feature comparison will just get everyone cross, especially if you start assuming that the other side is the only one that is missing something.
IME, neither side has everything because the two platforms prioritise different stuff, and that's because some of the stuff makes no sense elsewhere. Macs don't have a Windows key. Like that matters one iota. ;)
an often used operation
Is it really often used?
Also, remember this: tuned for laptops. The touchpad is nice and available, and the centre of the home row is left-right aligned with both the centre of the device and the centre of the touchpad. Moving fingers to it is very easy indeed, much more so than on any Windows laptop I've tried in the past decade.
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Lot of words for pedantic dickweedery.
Pot and kettle, I’d say.Blah blah blah, in short on Mac you need to use two hands to perform an often used operation, while on Windows/Linux you can use one.
True. Except, as I’ve said a number of times before, you need to move that hand to the key first from the other navigation keys. There are plenty of use-cases where indeed it’ll be faster to just hit the one key — typically when all you need to do is go to the start or end of the current line. But there’s also plenty where it’s going to be slower or more inconvenient to hit that key — typically when you’re using the keyboard to navigate through a lot of text and so would have to move your hand. But I might as well talk to the wall, I suppose.Windows (…) also has better (…) general workflow.
That’s highly subjective. Your workflow on a Mac probably isn’t as good as on Windows because you’re much more used to the latter — whereas mine wouldn’t be on Windows for much the same reason but in the opposite direction. It’s a combination of experience and preference, and if your preference after sufficient experience to make a good comparison is for Windows, then more power to you. My issue is chiefly with people who don’t have the experience to make a fair comparison, yet denounce the system they have no experience with for all kinds of dogmatic reasons.Not anymore, because Apple like to remove keys (and sockets) and that's one of the victims.
Just order the large keyboard. Costs the same as the wireless one, but it has more useful keys and you don’t need to keep changing batteries.keyboard shortcuts are a bit different between OSX and Windows. Bitching about them not being the same is pointless.
My point exactly, just put more concisely :) I’m not saying the “other side” has it wrong — I’ve been trying to show the rationale (as I understand it) for the ergonomics of it, as an illustration of how the decisions made for OS X are different from those for Windows. The problem is that a large number of die-hard computer users equate “does things differently from my OS of choice” with “needs to be changed to be usable”.
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Because some rats need to undo everything.
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Have you actually used a Magic Mouse¹, or are you arguing from theory?
¹ For more than a few moments at a store or someone else’s computer, that is.
No, I have used it just for a brief moment at a store - but it's not very different from touchpad, and I use touchpad on daily basis.highly doubt the majority of 20 million Macs a year get another OS installed on them as the primary system.
As I said, it might be a cognitive bias.No, basic OS stuff is exactly where the principle ease of use comes from. Take the keyboard shortcuts stuff that I’ve been talking about above: to do the full range of of navigation on Windows, you need to move your right hand between the arrow keys and the Home/End/etc. block, and many people will have to look at the keyboard to do that correctly; this wastes effort and time. On a Mac, you can keep both hands in the same locations on the keyboard to go anywhere the navigation keys will let you.
From my personal experience, I see that most people who can't hit Home etc. without looking, use the mouse for cursor movement and text selection. Also, once you learn how to use those keys effectively, there's nothing hard about it because you know how to do it, and can do it fast - the ease of use argument ALWAYS works ONLY for beginners, which you are not.You’re arguing that Windows is the fallback for anything else? “If I can’t do it on my OS of choice, I’ll use Windows”? At least you could have said “… without good alternatives on another OS”.
Have you ever seen a good alternative for OSX-only program that doesn't work on Windows? They're all either Windows-only, cross-platform, or shit.Ah, the fanboy card. I was waiting for that to come up now the “more money than sense” one had already been played. At least you acknowledge that Windows people can be fanboys too, but I very much deny it applies to me.
The fanboy card is great because you cannot counter it in any way other than calling me out for playing the fanboy card - every other line of defense can be interpreted as a symptom of fanboyism.
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Have you ever seen a good alternative for OSX-only program that doesn't work on Windows?
I've heard people say good things about OmniGraffle, and I think that's OSX-only. Never got into using it myself. (My toolset works fine on lots of platforms, and probably varies from lots of other people.)
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The fanboy card is great because you cannot counter it in any way other than calling me out for playing the fanboy card - every other line of defense can be interpreted as a symptom of fanboyism.
Congratulations, then — your trap succeeded. Now tell me why I should take you seriously if that’s the way you discuss things.
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I've heard people say good things about OmniGraffle
I’ve used it, and I think it’s rather good. I have, however, no experience with similar software on other OSes because I never had a need for it when I used those, so I can’t compare it to alternatives.
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I've heard people say good things about OmniGraffle, and I think that's OSX-only.
You got me wrong. I was talking about alternative to OSX-only program.Now tell me why I should take you seriously if that’s the way you discuss things.
If you read my posts carefully, you'd see that what I'm trying to do is not discuss certain parts of this argument, specifically the ease-of-use/comfort part - the former is not applicable and latter is entirely subjective, so they're not good topics. Can't we focus on what actually matters, like application support and stability?
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I was talking about alternative to OSX-only program.
Ah, misread what you wrote. The alternative to OmniGraffle on Windows is usually reckoned to be Visio. There are very few pieces of software that don't have an equivalent on the other platform you're talking about, though it might be by a different vendor. The main exceptions are games, where Windows has a much wider selection than other desktop OSes (for various historical reasons).
Can't we focus on what actually matters, like application support and stability?
But ease-of-use and comfort do actually matter too, even if they are largely subjective.
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But ease-of-use and comfort do actually matter too, even if they are largely subjective.
Comfort - yes, it matters, but since it's subjective, it doesn't make for a good topic to discuss. As of ease of use - as I repeated several times already, it matters only if you don't know your environment.
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As of ease of use - as I repeated several times already, it matters only if you don't know your environment
If I'm completely familiar with an environment that makes me use 6 commands in highly nested menus to do what another system can do with a single button, that's a case where ease of use has nothing to do with how well I know the environment
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an environment that makes me use 6 commands in highly nested menus to do what another system can do with a single button
Oh, you know scientific instrument control software too?
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If I'm completely familiar with an environment that makes me use 6 commands in highly nested menus to do what another system can do with a single button, that's a case where ease of use has nothing to do with how well I know the environment
You're confusing ease of use with ergonomics. If the menus are easily accessible and categorized in sensible way, it's easy to use even if clicking through menus takes half of your shift everyday.
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Though I must admit that with touchpad, the "up=up" way of scrolling isn't at all intuitive either.
It was back when the right edge commonly had a vertical arrow on it.
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The current Apple mouse doesn’t have a scroll wheel. You swipe over the mouse in the same way you swipe over a touchpad, which means the page follows your finger movements instead of going in the opposite direction.
Apple is making me think of the document instead of my view of the document (which is what I move down on a less offensive system). I find this dehumanizing, because obviously I'm less important than the document.
BRB...gotta post to tumblr.
