Windows 10 can-of-worms, Episode II: @Mike_Hunt strikes back
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Maybe they finally fixed their shit - back when I had Java, it did the prompts.
Could you make it clear we're talking about ancient history, please?
Nah, it makes sense to ask for elevated permissions to basically monitor all your network traffic.
Not... really?
What data does it get with elevation that it wouldn't get otherwise?
I mean it wouldn't be able to set up a listening connection on a port < 1024, but. I don't see why a network monitor would want to do that anyway.
What makes little sense is to keep doing it every time - especially since UAC in no way protects you from .exe substitution.
It does indirectly, since it's impossible to swap-out a .exe without approving it via a UAC prompt. It doesn't when the .exe is run, though.
You couldn't do it in Office 2007, when the Ribbon was first introduced.
Yes you could.
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Could you make it clear we're talking about ancient history, please?
Not very ancient. It was certainly Java 7.
What data does it get with elevation that it wouldn't get otherwise?
Volume of all network traffic. Dunno, maybe you can get that without elevation, but I'm personally more fine with the requirement than without.
It doesn't when the .exe is run, though.
Yeah, that's the point - copying over an exe should trigger UAC, that's fine, but running the application should at least let me tick the "Don't ask again" button. If I elevate the app once, it means I trust it, and most of the time the amount of trust is not going to change.
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Volume of all network traffic.
And elevation helps get that... ... ... ... ...how?
Dunno, maybe you can get that without elevation, but I'm personally more fine with the requirement than without.
So you're bitching about being annoyed with the UAC prompt, but you're also fine with it.
Look, unless there's more to it than your post indicates or their webpage describes, the software's plain broken. It's probably actually asking for elevation so it can save files in Program Files or something equally wrong.
Yeah, that's the point - copying over an exe should trigger UAC, that's fine, but running the application should at least let me tick the "Don't ask again" button.
Then what stops an attacker from getting elevated once, then programmatically checking "don't ask again" on all of your .exes with a PowerShell or whatever?
If I elevate the app once, it means I trust it, and most of the time the amount of trust is not going to change.
If the app wasn't broken, you wouldn't need to elevate it in the first place. The solution here is to stop using shitty broken apps.
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@TwelveBaud said:
You couldn't do it in Office 2007, when the Ribbon was first introduced.
Yes you could.
No, you couldn't.
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LISTED ON THAT EXACT PAGE YOU FUCKING IDIOT MORON DUMBFUCK SHITHEAD IDIOT MORON FUCKING RETARD:
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No one except Microsoft considers the Quick Access Toolbar to be part of the ribbon. Moron.
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So you're bitching about being annoyed with the UAC prompt, but you're also fine with it.
Things like "grabbing all keystrokes from all apps, even elevated ones", or "capturing all network traffic" should require elevation and not be doable from regular user's permissions level. I think that's fairly obvious.
The point is, I don't need to be reminded of it every single time I start the app.
Then what stops an attacker from getting elevated once, then programmatically checking "don't ask again" on all of your .exes with a PowerShell or whatever?
What's stopping it from installing itself as a service? Or fucking your PC so badly you won't require to run it for the second time?
If a malicious program gets elevated, you're fucked, end of story. Airtight hatchways and all that.
If the app wasn't broken, you wouldn't need to elevate it in the first place.
So you mean no app should ever ask for elevation? I'm somewhat confused now.
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What kind of things do you have in your startup?
Java. Fucking. Updater.
Yes, I know I've been
ed. I just wanted to express my true appreciationgutteral hatred for that lovely piece of software
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No one except Microsoft considers the Quick Access Toolbar to be part of the ribbon. Moron.
What does "part of the ribbon" have to do with the claim at all?
The claim is: you can't customize Office with your favorite shit.
The counter-claim is: YES YOU FUCKING CAN YOU IDIOT AND IT SAYS SO EVEN ON THE PAGE YOU WERE USING AS EVIDENCE OF YOUR CLAIM!
So whether it's part of the ribbon or part of a moon rocket or a piece-of-eight, the point is: you are wrong and also kind of a dimbulb.
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Nope
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So you mean no app should ever ask for elevation? I'm somewhat confused now.
Elevation should be reserved for extreme cases, both to reduce user fatigue (postponing their training to click OK to all UAC dialogs as long as possible) and to reduce attack surface area. Only things like installers, Wireshark, etc, should require it, and then they should clearly indicate that a UAC prompt is coming up and why you should click yes.Shit like "count my keystrokes for my e-peen" that requires elevation on each boot, or Java's updater that pops up UAC without warning, or games that save to their install folder, is anathema and counterproductive.
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Why do so many people insist on ceding control of their systems to outside entities who are far more likely to ruin your day with software-breaking security updates than any hacker?
I... errr... what?
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Ok this fucking forum is broken again so this probably won't even save and typing it is probably a huge waste of my time, but here goes anyway:
Things like "grabbing all keystrokes from all apps, even elevated ones", or "capturing all network traffic" should require elevation and not be doable from regular user's permissions level. I think that's fairly obvious.
Then it should have set up the permissions it needs at install-time.
The point is, I don't need to be reminded of it every single time I start the app.
I agree.
What you're really being reminded of is you using a broken application written by idiots.
So you mean no app should ever ask for elevation?
You said it, not me.
I'm somewhat confused now.
Obviously. So is the developer of that shitty app you're bitching about.
Maybe use apps by developers who know what the fuck they're doing? Hey! Maybe... maybe you could learn how Windows works and then come back and post here?
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Shit like "count my keystrokes for my e-peen"
Hey, I like numbers going up. Fuck you.
And there's no way to count keystrokes without getting all keystroke data, and you don't want non-elevated programs listening on what you type into elevated ones.
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That's not the narrative though.
Microsoft: Look, we've made you more productive! We've gotten rid of all those messy toolbars and given you a shiny new ribbon!
Users: Okay, so how do I customize it to fit my individual hyper-specific needs because I'm such a special sunflower in dire need of tummyrubs?
Microsoft: Well... you can't. Too likely to cause confusion, like those idiots who dragged the menu bar to the right side of the window and freaked out. But for you guys, we're saving one tiny toolbar. Which has to hold everything.
Users: *rage*Microsoft saw the light in 2010 and added the ability for mere mortals to customize the Ribbon proper. But for 2007, the users who most benefited from toolbars were most screwed over, with no "reasonable" (for their use cases) alternative.
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Filed under: I have a compiler, I'll patch it myself
You trust your compiler to not have a backdoor? Poor ignorant sheep, the only way to be sure is to bootstrap from machine code. Who knows if the assembler writers snuck in an NSA access route
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Wait, what? I missed that argument...
Counter-claim 2:
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That's not the narrative though.
I don't give a shit about "the narrative". What even is "the narrative". What the fuck are you talking about?
Oh wait, don't answer that, you're just flailing around with random moronic thoughts trying to avoid the obvious conclusion that Blakeyrat won yet again, with the added insult of winning via the evidence you cited to prove him wrong.
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That was added in 2010, like I originally said.
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Ah.
Well then, disregard....Reading the thread
thingsAlthough as @raceprouk pointed out you can still customize some things, it just takes more work
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And there's no way to count keystrokes without getting all keystroke data, and you don't want non-elevated programs listening on what you type into elevated ones.
+1!
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Maybe they finally fixed their shit - back when I had Java, it did the prompts.
No, they didn't. Maybe Blakey's sysadmin tweaked its behavior to run as an elevated service like they should have done to begin with
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Why are we arguing about UAC again? We've already agreed that every advanced Windows user should just turn that off on their personal computer, and work like a boss.
As for Ribbon, IMO it's better than standard toolbars, but MS should have still kept the menus, for discoverability.
That's actually one of the advantages of MacOS over Windows. They have a fixed menu at the top of the screen. Every app knows it should just add all its advanced options there, so it's free to set up whatever fancy interface in the main window. Ribbon on MacOS actually works much better because of this.
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UAC is off. Just like I have it off in Windows 7.
I stopped reading at this. Do you always log into Linux as root, as well?
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@trwtfbot We've already agreed that every advanced Windows user should just turn that off on their personal computer, and work like a boss.
That's probably gonna break the bot but oh well.
I stopped reading at this. Do you always log into Linux as root, as well?
'd. Several times over in fact 
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We've already agreed that every advanced Windows user should just turn that off on their personal computer, and work like a boss. is TRWTF
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having so little faith in @trwtfbot is TRWTF
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That's actually one of the advantages of MacOS over Windows. They have a fixed menu at the top of the screen.
Just last week I had to explain to my mom, who has used MacOS exclusively for over ten years now, why the menu options change when she changes apps. I explained that those options apply to the context of the application she's using, not to the whole computer. She was stunned. It was all voodoo magic to her.
The menu bar being attached to the program window helps signal context.
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Why do so many people insist on ceding control of their systems to outside entities who are far more likely to ruin your day with software-breaking security updates than any hacker?
What the hell sort of software do you run that is that pathetically sensitive to Windows patchlevel?
Also, @blakeyrat, if you want a list to start with a 5, or any other number that you wish:
<ol start="42"><li>Use The HTML, Blakey!</ol>- Use The HTML, Blakey!
Ok Mr. Expert, how should they have implemented it?
There really wasn't anything MS could do with the problem at that point -- the damage @Maciejasjmj refers to had already been done a long time ago by a parade of modal dialogs chock-full of user-incomprehensible barf.
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New line so the list doesn't cover my avatar.
- End tags are cool. Also, dat overflow.
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- Huh.
- Negatives work.
- Who'da thunk it?
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It's probably just some kind of signed numeric. I'm more horrified at the css going on here.
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- does
- it
- wrap?
- looks
- like
- it
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It never used to; it would just top out at
Int32.MaxValue
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Only things like installers, Wireshark, etc, should require it
Wireshark doesn't require elevation on Windows; at least, not if you accept the defaults as it does its WinPCap installation.
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Just last week I had to explain to my mom, who has used MacOS exclusively for over ten years now, why the menu options change when she changes apps. I explained that those options apply to the context of the application she's using, not to the whole computer. She was stunned. It was all voodoo magic to her.
The menu bar being attached to the program window helps signal context.
Yup, That's the downside.
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Use The HTML, Blakey!
Fuck you.
I typed "5.". If that's not the text that appears on the goddamned screen, then it's a goddamned bug. The most obvious bug in the UNIVERSE.
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Goddamned stop this shit, or do it somewhere I have on ignore. Fuck you.
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Is it also a bug if you type *this is starred* and get this is starred?
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Yes, deliberately.
That explains it. Admin users only get the buttons. Limited users have to type the password.
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...Wow.
Can you tell me who made this software, so I can avoid it like the plague?
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Is it also a bug if you type this is starred and get this is starred?
Yes. That's exactly why I'm opposed to using Markdown at all. It's 2015, when the fuck did we (we, meaning idiots like Atwood and other people who don't say "fuck you" to Markdown) give up on WYSIWYG?! Because I'm not behind that decision at all.
And if I quote your post, it just reveals more bugs.
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If I typed enough
Nos to adequately express my distaste for that 'solution', I'd break the Universe
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I love the typos and weird carriage returns in that dialog. I mean, even if it worked, would you want to use software from a guy who typed "using their computers is they are not running"?
Customize the Quick Access Toolbar - Microsoft Support
