Two things I hate when it comes to UX
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I don't think that @flabdablet's eschewing automated checkouts is Luddism.
I do incline more toward the position of the neo-Luddites than to that of people who use the word "Luddite" as a simple pejorative.
Change needs to be assessed on its merits. Change for the sake of change is as likely to break things as improve them, a point that the technological priesthood at large is rather inclined to overlook; "who moved my cheese?" is a perfectly reasonable complaint if the cheese was in fact optimally positioned already.
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optimally positioned already
Nothing optimal about a person that can't figure out that a package of 3 chicken strips, another package of 3, and a package of 4, makes up the 10 strips that I want.
I like to put forth the idea that a person complaining about their minimum wage not keeping up with inflation, has to then justify why it should considering that the complexity of their labor has drastically reduced in the last few decades.
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The invisible hand does it's invisible work
inside the invisible oligarchy's invisible trousers
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low skilled people
are rare. Anybody who has spent thousands of times as long as I have on scanning prices and packing bags is naturally going to waste far less time when doing that than I would.
Spend a bit of time standing and watch the business end of a supermarket in full swing, and compare the rate at which goods flow through the staffed lanes compared to the rate at which they flow past the self-serve machines. If your supermarket is anything like mine, the staff are about twice the speed.
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they need to be informed that you can't keep doing the same exact thing the same exact way your whole life and expect to keep (or even improve?!...) your standard of living.
"Well, in our country," said Alice, still panting a little, "you'd generally get to somewhere else—if you run very fast for a long time, as we've been doing."
"A slow sort of country!" said the Queen. "Now, here, you see, it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!"
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I like having my groceries scanned and bagged by somebody who practises scanning and bagging all day every day and is therefore more skilled in the art than I am.
The store I go to actually offers a spectrum of the amount of service they provide. Of course, you can get someone to help you take your stuff out to your car and help you load it. You can even order stuff online and they'll collect it from the shelves and come out and put it in your car (I think you schedule a pick up time and then call them on your phone when you get there or something). The chain additionally has a delivery service that brings stuff and will actually carry the groceries into your house (I think you need to actually unpack them from the boxes and store them in your kitchen).
As a customer, I'm glad to have these options, though I get annoyed when people waiting for their groceries stop in front of the ramp I tend to use (based on the part of the lot where I like to park).
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Spend a bit of time standing and watch the business end of a supermarket in full swing, and compare the rate at which goods flow through the staffed lanes compared to the rate at which they flow past the self-serve machines. If your supermarket is anything like mine, the staff are about twice the speed.
That's absolutely true. But when the manned lanes are two deep and there's an open lane and I only have a couple of things, guess which one gets me out of the store quicker?
Anybody who has spent thousands of times as long as I have on scanning prices and packing bags is naturally going to waste far less time when doing that than I would.
As I said, they often have people bagging at the self service area. Though I did that job for a summer, so I'm not bad at bagging my groceries and I never put canned goods on top of the bread (most of the people there don't either, but sometimes you get a new guy who has no clue).
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"A slow sort of country!" said the Queen. "Now, here, you see, it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!"
Bad analogy.
Unless people have gotten slower over time, or there has been a time dilation that makes the entire analogy pointless.
Compare a cashier's work today to 40 years ago.
A fast food drive thru worker's work today and in the past.Automation has devalued their work, because they do less work and require less skills and intelligence.
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As I said, they often have people bagging at the self service area.
Seriously, as a cashier 10 years ago I scanned and bagged both faster than I've seen people scan or bag today.
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Seriously, as a cashier 10 years ago I scanned and bagged both faster than I've seen people scan or bag today.
Uh...OK? Is the technology really that different from 10 years ago? Are you just bragging here?
Different people are different.
:yawn:
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Are you just bragging here?
I'm complaining about people expecting to earn double what I earned 10 years ago, for only 20% inflation, when they are working half as hard as I did.
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Ok,
Let's try again.
I'm complaining about people expecting to earn double what I earned 10 years ago, for only 20% inflation, when they are half as productive as I was.
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I'm complaining about people expecting to earn double what I earned 10 years ago, for only 20% inflation, when they are half as productive as I was.
What's your theory about their pay rates?
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What's your theory about their pay rates?
It's not incompatible. I know where you are going here.
Ok, so automation devalues the work performed by someone, so that they can be more productive for the same level of effort.
However, they aren't 2x more productive.
So how can they argue for 2x more money?
We've had only 20% inflation since 10 years ago. So my $8 an hour would be $9.60 if they kept the same level of productivity.
Even if you go back quite a bit, minimum wage would only be like $10 if it kept up with inflation.
Fine, keep up with inflation, but we should expect more productivity, since automation has reduced the complexity of their tasks.
Fast food drive through clerks don't even have to fill drink orders anymore. There's a conveyor belt for that.
Hell, I work for people that won't give SoL adjustments. If you don't perform, you don't even get an adjustment for inflation.
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I know where you are going here.
I'm just pulling your teeth to get the story.
However, they aren't 2x more productive.
So how can they argue for 2x more money?
We've had only 20% inflation since 10 years ago. So my $8 an hour would be $9.60 if they kept the same level of productivity.
Well, supply and demand is a thing that's not even close to totally explained by those factors. In my day, grocery store employees tended to be union, but that wasn't in a right to work state, like I am now. I still think they're unionized at my local store.
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Well, supply and demand is a thing that's not even close to totally explained by those factors
I'm being at most fair in my comparison.
That's not counting that life ain't fair.
You don't make money by working for someone else. You make money by managing risk.
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grocery store employees tended to be unio
Yeah and when you compare it like this.
Non-Union | Union Walmart - $7.50 - 8.25 | Krogers - $5.12 - $6.50That was my earnings at both companies.
I only worked for each for a year.
Entry pay was a whole dollar higher.
Benefits were better too.
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Seriously, as a cashier 10 years ago I scanned and bagged both faster than I've seen people scan or bag today.
Nostalgia is brain disease. Purge it.
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However, they aren't 2x more productive.
So how can they argue for 2x more money?
Expecting wages to be related to productivity went out of style some time in the 20th century.
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Expecting wages to be related to productivity went out of style some time in the 20th century.
Part of the problem is that with some types of work, you simply don't have a well-correlated quantitative productivity metric; furthermore, tying pay to one metric (such as per-piece productivity) can have negative impacts on others (such as lost time).
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There's a separate bagger and cashier.
I can guarantee you I had scan speeds faster than these people.
There were grandmas with faster scan speeds.But I'm not going to be able to produce empirical evidence for how fast I was 10 years ago.
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So... no evidence.
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Maybe the old store kept the scan speed records lying around.
But, I have to ask you, have you been in a grocery store lately?
I'd bet money I can walk up to a register an outscan the vast majority of cashiers I have been served by.
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But, I have to ask you, have you been in a grocery store lately?
No, I only eat from dumpsters.
I'd bet money I can walk up to a register an outscan the vast majority of cashiers I have been served by.
I'll take that bet. $100.
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I'd bet money I can walk up to a register an outscan the vast majority of cashiers I have been served by.
I usually seem to get the guy who is the RL incarnation of ABC Sports Super-Slo-Mo™.
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I'll take that bet. $100.
Be forewarned that he said:
the vast majority of cashiers I have been served by.
and it is possible that there is some kind of special case here.
<note: I think blakey is right in the general case, but kind of hope the specific case here costs him
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and it is possible that there is some kind of special case here.
I still remember the 4 digit codes for produce.
special case
They wanted to offer me a store management position when I left, bypassing all the ranks between.
I have been served by.
There's some probability that there's some Europeans looking at this and saying their cashiers are blazing fast.
But when my register beeps were subsecond, hmm....
And this was also at the store where the old ladies were still faster than me.
Of course, I also took the attitude of gamifying it and seeing how fast I could scan and not make mistakes.
Of course of course, we also kept track of items per second and you were rewarded competitively.
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Expecting wages to be related to productivity went out of style some time in the 20th century.
Such as the one of the main contributory factors to unemployment of the under-skilled and young:
the minimum wage
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we also kept track of items per second and you were rewarded competitively.
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I use them all the time; they're great if you know what you're doing ;)
And how many people do? (not op apparently) Often it feels like a single checkout operator can clear their line faster than the same number of people can bumble through the four automated checkouts. And they're using the exact same software.
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And they're using the exact same software
No they aren't. The self checkouts have weight checks between each scan, the manned checks don't. there are additional UI alterations to make the UI friendlier at the self checkouts because you can't train the shoppers, but you can train the cashiers. In all, they use the same database(s), but not the same software.
In addition there are UX considerations. At most self checkouts, you scan from your basket to a small nagging area. Additionally, the weight in the bagging area is constantly monitored, so removing items from the bagging are to make room for additional stuff causes a delay as you wait for an attendant to give the system an ok for you. By contrast, at a manned checkout, you generally put your items on a belt and move your cart to the end. The cashier scans and bags as quickly as able and loads them into the cart as bags are filled. This UX difference magnifies the time difference.
Next time do some research or try some critical thinking before blurting out a statement as stupid as "they're using the exact same software." Especially when the differences have already been pointed out earlier in the conversation.
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No, what I'm saying is that at the store where I experience that, the software and scanners are exactly the same. Sure, the operators don't have to deal with the scale, but the scale isn't that big of a deal if you know how to use it (we are allowed to lift our full bags without operator intervention, as long as we wait until the correct light is showing), and they have a few more options unlocked (scanning coupons is disabled at the self-checkouts), but it is the same software.
Long story short, what I was trying to say is that even if they have to use the same inefficient 'user-friendly’ software suite as the customers do, an experienced checkout operator is more efficient than your typical clueless shopper.
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you scan from your basket to a small nagging area.
This is a funny, and apposite, typo.
o removing items from the bagging are to make room for additional stuff causes a delay as you wait for an attendant to give the system an ok for you.
Actually, in my experience (at least at Wal-Mart; I haven't tried this in other stores yet) once the scale's decided an item has been weighed you can remove it from the bagging area; so I generally remove filled bags and put them back into the cart to save space.
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Actually, in my experience (at least at Wal-Mart; I haven't tried this in other stores yet) once the scale's decided an item has been weighed you can remove it from the bagging area; so I generally remove filled bags and put them back into the cart to save space.
Must've upgraded since the last time I did a self check at Wal-Mart.
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I generally remove filled bags
Some systems allow this, some do not. My local grocery stores do not.
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Must've upgraded since the last time I did a self check at Wal-Mart.
's been that way for quite some time IIRC.
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Some systems allow [removal of filled bags], some do not. My local grocery stores do not.
That would annoy me enough to probably not shop there.
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The bigger ones have belt-style self-checks, which are way better. In fact, most of them have both, and consider the scale-based ones "express" lanes. The belt ones don't care what you do with the groceries after they've gone on the weighted belt and past the scanner.
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The bigger ones have belt-style self-checks, which are way better.
I would imagine it would be. I haven't seen those yet.
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's been that way for quite some time IIRC.
I haven't shopped at Wal-Mart for quite some time.
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I can't stop reading this thread's title as
The-Feminist-Software-Foundation/ToleranUX
ToleranUX — world's first Tolerant UNIX-like kernel - The-Feminist-Software-Foundation/ToleranUX
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I can't stop reading this thread's title as
The thread contents has been heading that direction too ...
So ... anyone noticed a speed difference between a female and a male cashier?
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I'll take that bet. $100.
...and if you win, @abarker and I have a lien on that money.
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So ... anyone noticed a speed difference between a female and a male cashier?
Yes. And between intra-gender cashiers, too. There are a few female cashiers at my store who love to talk. They're nice people, but I avoid their lanes if I'm in a hurry.
The biggest checkout problem at my store is when you end up behind someone using WIC vouchers. They apparently can only get specific items and it's always a major slow down when the cashier has to verify all that stuff. And the shopper is almost always Hispanic in these cases and not all of the cashiers speak Spanish, so these transactions can take 5-10 minutes.
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The biggest checkout problem
But that are customer properties ... not cashier gender or even race. Please stay on topic or I'll have to ask for one of the mods to do their bloody job.
The Asshole Factory
Think I'll leave it.
