Dont need no loops
-
There's some deeper psychological mechanics at work here that I just don't understand.
It's probably some sort of reaction to Jeff's attitude. (“There's so much attitude, it'll take us years to build up enough bile to react against it as a whole!”) But he's not sticking around here, so the potential to bait him isn't nearly as much fun as it used to be.
In relation to Discourse itself, different people react to different things. I'm not one of the howling pagination fanatics, for example, but the way they parse their markdown/bbcode/html stew really irritates me. There is no model, only
Zuulregexps.
-
In relation to Discourse itself, different people react to different things. I'm not one of the howling pagination fanatics, for example, but the way they parse their markdown/bbcode/html stew really irritates me. There is no model, only
Zuulregexps.This. When software gets in my way of doing things (like right now, having to recreate your strikethrough because Discourse ate it, and not doing that would be misquoting you), I usually change the software. In this case, I'm stuck with it. So I at least try to derive some modicum of entertainment from stupid jokes about "Discoursistency" and Codecthulhu..
-
It's probably some sort of reaction to Jeff's attitude. (“There's so much attitude, it'll take us years to build up enough bile to react against it as a whole!”) But he's not sticking around here, so the potential to bait him isn't nearly as much fun as it used to be.
I figured.
My interpretation so fart: People were angered with the software change. Jeff Atwood was annoyed by the poor reception his baby was receiving. His annoyance leaked through the passive-aggressive "thank you for your effort but you're wrong because my article" posts in response to the complaints. People felt the negative attitude and got pissed off even more. He tried to defuse the situation by closing the meta here, but that only caused the silent war to move over to their turf.
So now, the TDWTF members post their passive-aggressive bug reports on meta.discourse and Jeff Atwood replies with a frosty fake smile, while wishing these people would just go away.
Very strange dynamics. Like an unhappy divorce couple trying to play nice in front the children.
In relation to Discourse itself, different people react to different things. I'm not one of the howling pagination fanatics, for example, but the way they parse their markdown/bbcode/html stew really irritates me. There is no model, only Zuul regexps.
@Onyx said:This. When software gets in my way of doing things (like right now, having to recreate your strikethrough because Discourse ate it, and not doing that would be misquoting you), I usually change the software. In this case, I'm stuck with it. So I at least try to derive some modicum of entertainment from stupid jokes about "Discoursistency" and Codecthulhu..
I guess that has always been my experience with markdown. Anyone who ever had to write README.md for a github repo should be used to this shit. To me, discourse doesn't feel any better or worse than the norm.
I tried to imagine what else they could have used instead, but nothing comes to mind. bbcode and markdown are the two formats most people who post online are familiar with. Unfortunately, it seems markdown is the new PHP of online content generation; we all know it sucks, but we are stuck with it.
-
I guess that has always been my experience with markdown. Anyone who ever had to write README.md for a github repo should be used to this shit. To me, discourse doesn't feel any better or worse than the norm.
There are some concerns that are not caused by markdown alone. See above about the quotes eating formatting. Which is a design decision, it's perfectly possible to make formatting work in quotes, since all the markdown, BBCode and HTML survive the DB inserts as you can see in the raw form of the post. It's a bit of a pain if you're using the selection popup thing, but doable. Freaking CS did it!
-
But Jeff's aim is to not repeat how things do it and instead encourage new discussion paradigms which conform to his ideals of being civilised. Our needs be damned.
-
There are some concerns that are not caused by markdown alone. See above about the quotes eating formatting. Which is a design decision, it's perfectly possible to make formatting work in quotes, since all the markdown, BBCode and HTML survive the DB inserts as you can see in the raw form of the post. It's a bit of a pain if you're using the selection popup thing, but doable. Freaking CS did it!
I actually think that's a good idea. Forces people to quote precisely the passage they want, instead of the entire post.
Have you been to the old CS lately? Putting nostalgia aside, it's objectively hideous. People would be lazy and just requote the entire post, adding their one line witty reply. So later, you end up scrolling dozens of time past the same multi-level-quoted post, in order to read one line of new content. Terrible.
-
I actually think that's a good idea. Forces people to quote precisely the passage they want, instead of the entire post.
Have you been to the old CS lately? Putting nostalgia aside, it's objectively hideous. People would be lazy and just requote the entire post, adding their one line witty reply. So later, you end up scrolling dozens of time past the same multi-level-quoted post, in order to read one line of new content. Terrible.
And of course that never ever happens here at all. Albeit the nested quoting isn't replicated but it's hardly a major deal to fix in something like CS if you're careful about it.
-
I actually think that's a good idea. Forces people to quote precisely the passage they want, instead of the entire post.
Agreed. Still not a reason to strip the formatting.
Note that Discourse can handle dangling tags pretty well if that's your concern.
See? I can compliment it as well when it deserves it!
-
No, stripping most of the formatting is not a technical decision, it is a 'civilised' one because it supposedly encourages focus on the content not the presentation.
-
And of course that never ever happens here at all.
It's less common because quoting mangles a complex post. So you are forced to edit the post. And when you're already editing, you might as well trim down that excess text.
One of those "encourage good behavior" tricks that are sexually stimulating for Jeff Atwood, but annoying for experienced software people who see through the manipulation.
-
Ok, so...
There is no model, only Zuul regexps.
This is fine? Focus on the content. This is a tame example, but I just misquoted dkf because his strikethrough is gone. And yes, that might not be a common thing people use, but still...
Don't get me wrong, it's not a simple issue, but any discussion of the issue just triggered another blanket "it encourages focus on the content not the presentation" statement without even admitting it might be a problem in certain situations. And even if it did, it was "that's only TDWTF, sane people don't do that".
-
It's less common because quoting mangles a complex post.
+<
Quoting is my biggest problem still with discourse.
-
Ok, so...
This is fine? Focus on the content. This is a tame example, but I just misquoted dkf because his strikethrough is gone. And yes, that might not be a common thing people use, but still...
Don't get me wrong, it's not a simple issue, but any discussion of the issue just triggered another blanket "it encourages focus on the content not the presentation" statement without even admitting it might be a problem in certain situations. And even if it did, it was "that's only TDWTF, sane people don't do that".
No, it's not fine. Yes, I am well aware that I knee-jerked through to 'focus on the content' BS but that's Jeff's standard answer, even as much as it is utter BS. So much of what a forum is is not just about the content. The presentation is part of the content in so many places.
Even something as simple as whether I choose to break into paragraphs is a presentational matter as well as a content one.
It's one of the more subtle irritations I have. Other forums respect my line breaks as actual line breaks rather than implying I mean a paragraph break. I have in many posts used 2-3 line breaks to indicate a distance between points, e.g. a conclusion separate from the body of the post. But whatever intent I give my content, Discourse removes that.
-
-
People would be lazy and just requote the entire post, adding their one line witty reply.
Nothing stops people from doing that here. If highlight-to-quote actually worked here on anything but plain-text, it'd be nice. Other than that, I just end up with quotes accidentally attributing the wrong person because I quoted a quote, missing html, with htmlentities, or any number of annoying shit that forces me to have to manually fix the quote.
I think the main thing stopping repetitive full-post quoting here is how broken the quoting system is. Is that really a fix? (hanzo'd by basically every one else awake on the forum since cartman's post)
-
People would be lazy and just requote the entire post, adding their one line witty reply.
Nothing stops people from doing that here. If highlight-to-quote actually worked here on anything but plain-text, it'd be nice. Other than that, I just end up with quotes accidentally attributing the wrong person
Why are you talking to yourself, you weirdo?
-
Why are you talking to yourself, you weirdo?
I assume he's replying "the Discourse way", posting reply after reply as he scrolls down.
-
Nothing stops people from doing that here.
But they aren't. Either the people here are more considerate, or there's something about the software that nudges them in the "right" direction. My assertion is that, accidentally or not, the "broken" quoting leads to people making better quotes.
-
My assertion is that, accidentally or not, the "broken" quoting leads to people making better quotes.
And the one and only reason for that is the "quote selected passage" button, which is actually pretty useful. This, and unrolling the quote.
The rest of quoting is questionable at best.
-
I'd argue that it's almost more consideration on our part because we know the software is flaky that we try not to inflict it on each other so much.
-
Yeah but in the old forums you had to basically manually type in html...
At least what you typed in was what displayed on the screen!
-
Yeah but in the old forums you had to basically manually type in html...
I'm pretty sure it's a dedicated host, like the old forums.
First point: I still have to manually type in HTML for shit here too. And worse, they're fucking entities.
Also, it's a VPS here because nothing less than a 1GB RAM VPS will even run Discourse, 2GB RAM recommended.
-
it's a VPS here because nothing less than a 1GB RAM VPS will even run Discourse
Also, a technology stack no shared host will ever provide (if a dedicated one would either) because it's too much of a PITA to set up and, presumably, maintain.
-
No shared host would ever do it because the price point of providing the resources is simply too high for what they normally operate.
Remember, the typical 'shared hosting' gig like GoDaddy does is somewhere in the hundreds-of-website-accounts per server.
-
I'd assume that, memory-wise at least, the progression or resource use for multiple users woudn't be linear. I hope.
But yes, the point still stands.
-
I guess that has always been my experience with markdown. Anyone who ever had to write README.md for a github repo should be used to this shit. To me, discourse doesn't feel any better or worse than the norm.
Well look. Maybe I grew up in a sewer. Maybe I spent my entire life sitting under the pipe hooked up to the toilet at a 24-hour curry restaurant. Maybe I've moved now to the turd pipe under the Mexican joint down the street.
Guess what? I still stink.
No, before this bulllshit the only time I used Markdown was when trying to deal with making a post on StackOverflow, and it didn't fucking work there, either. Markdown is a horrible idea, it doesn't fucking work no matter where you encounter it, and knowing that the company that embraced Git also embraced Markdown ain't helping your case one bit.
All that aside, Markdown's been around for like 5 years now, and it doesn't even have a spec. Not only is it hideously broken by-design, but there's no fucking way to even "code to the spec" because there is no spec. Atwood, of course, knew all of this bullshit when he picked it but he picked it anyway because... oh yeah! Because HE HATES US.
I tried to imagine what else they could have used instead, but nothing comes to mind.
HTML worked fine for me. BBCode is also fine. Oh, hey, how about we join 2005 and get a real working WYSIWYG editor? Wouldn't that just be the bee's knees?
bbcode and markdown are the two formats most people who post online are familiar with.
Who are these people who are familiar with Markdown? You are somewhere between delusional and batship insane. The only people who know Markdown are the people who have to, because they work with really shitty websites like GitHub or StackOverflow. Which, BTW, are also sites that appeal to maybe 0.05% of the Internet population... in fact the most mainstream site ("mainstream") that uses Markdown is BoingBoing, and that's because those hipster retards for scammed by Atwood.
You show me Markdown on fucking Facebook and maybe I'll agree with you.
Unfortunately, it seems markdown is the new PHP of online content generation; we all know it sucks, but we are stuck with it.
We're only stuck with it as long as people just lie down, give up, and let their software be shitty. Hey! Here's a idea: GIVE A FUCK. GIVE A FUCK ABOUT THE QUALITY OF SOFTWARE. Don't just give up and die sitting under your Mexican restaurant sewer pipe, but maybe... maybe do something?
-
I actually think that's a good idea. Forces people to quote precisely the passage they want, instead of the entire post.
And if the passage they want includes an image? Oh you're fucked. What if it has a link? Fucked. What if the passage contains crossed-out text and quoting it without formatting completely changes the meaning? Fucked again.
Go back to CS. Notice how it would only quote what you selected with your magical mouse-machine, but also retained the formatting. This is one way in which Discourse is provably, unquestionably, significantly worse than forum software that came before it.
-
We're only stuck with it as long as people just lie down, give up, and let their software be shitty. Hey! Here's a idea: GIVE A FUCK. GIVE A FUCK ABOUT THE QUALITY OF SOFTWARE. Don't just give up and die sitting under your Mexican restaurant sewer pipe, but maybe... maybe do something?
Just one thing about this. I give a fuck about the quality of software - and I do open source stuff too. I feel like a pariah for trying to care about quality when everyone around me is insistent on mediocrity but some of us do fight the good fight.
-
Anyone who ever had to write README.md for a github repo should be used to this shit.
GitHub actually supports a number of readme formats, including plain text if you use README or README.txt as your filename.
GitHub - github/markup: Determines which markup library to use to render a content file (e.g. README) on GitHub
Determines which markup library to use to render a content file (e.g. README) on GitHub - github/markup
-
My assertion is that, accidentally or not, the "broken" quoting leads to people making better quotes.
Ok. There's the "A" of your A/B test. Now where's the "B" population?
-
Just one thing about this. I give a fuck about the quality of software - and I do open source stuff too. I feel like a pariah for trying to care about quality when everyone around me is insistent on mediocrity but some of us do fight the good fight.
That... contributed a lot to the discussion? ... thanks I guess?
-
That... contributed a lot to the discussion? ... thanks I guess?
You seem to be under the impression that none of us here care about the state of software. I do - even for the puke-ridden buckets of slop called open source that you deride so often.
The difference between that and Discourse is that I don't believe anything I do will make a single bit of difference. I don't argue to change things because while I care, I've given up trying to fight the Twatwoodishness.
-
We're only stuck with it as long as people just lie down, give up, and let their software be shitty. Hey! Here's a idea: GIVE A FUCK. GIVE A FUCK ABOUT THE QUALITY OF SOFTWARE. Don't just give up and die sitting under your Mexican restaurant sewer pipe, but maybe... maybe do something?
Suggestions? Not trolling btw.
Seriously, I whine, still, about this shit because I do care. And yes, it gets annoying. Because it derails threads in yet-another-discourse-thread. Didn't you invent a law about that?
Personally, I lack both the time, and honestly, the knowledge, to make something like a forum software. So I at least try to make a headway on this damned platform where I can.
The silly "Likes" thread is one of those subversions as well, by the way. At first, it was breaking the "Like" system (and, as a consequence, badges), proving that it's too easy to abuse for it to be a valuable metric. Then it became about showing that the re-invented green scroll thing is conceptually broken. Notice how it slowed down after hitting 10k. That's because we're done with that now, we just still occasionally shoot the breeze there.
Since you posted this while I was typing:
Go back to CS.
We did use it in parallel at first. But now the main site spams me with links to here, making it harder to just click on shit to reach the old forums. Part of comments redirect here. It's harder to reach, meaning plenty of people won't even bother. Also, the initial rush of posts when DC went active kinda meant that this is where you come for content.
Can it be reversed? I guess. Would enough people follow if, for example, you, me and Arantor went posting there right now? Not sure. But tell you what, if you think it would, go on, I'll be happy to join.
-
The difference between that and Discourse is that I don't believe anything I do will make a single bit of difference. I don't argue to change things because while I care, I've given up trying to fight the Twatwoodishness.
Yeah, my problem too. And because Alex is a fucking douche too, we'll never get rid of it. That's why I fucking left and only came back when I took a really, really fucking boring job.
-
Yeah but in the old forums you had to basically manually type in html...
That at least has the advantage of being somewhat predictable so you don't have to retry different variations of the same formatting to see if maybe this time, it'll work.
Also, if the HTML is not sanitized, there are some additional benefits.
My opinion (which, of course, remains my own) is that the major annoyances with this pile of septic excrement are not to do with poor implementation, but with it being designed by a megalomaniac cretin.
I don't think you're the only one here who holds that opinion.
I can think of at least a couple instances where we tried to be reasonable and demonstrate what's wrong with his software, but he takes that criticism as proof that he is correct. Maybe the correct approach is to tell him how great the software is, and then he'll wonder what's wrong with it and why we hate it so.
-
Jeff is not smart enough to make that recognition. He will assume we finally saw the light.
-
Can it be reversed? I guess. Would enough people follow if, for example, you, me and Arantor went posting there right now? Not sure. But tell you what, if you think it would, go on, I'll be happy to join.
What would be the fucking point. It's just going to be wiped.
Or maybe it won't because Alex will never import the posts because he's a fucking idiot who can't run a website worth shit and he hates all his visitors.
Either way, like I said we are fucked: past tense. The damage to the community is done and it can't be undo and the person in charge of running the community doesn't give a shit, fuck him.
-
It's probably some sort of reaction to Jeff's attitude. (“There's so much attitude, it'll take us years to build up enough bile to react against it as a whole!”) But he's not sticking around here, so the potential to bait him isn't nearly as much fun as it used to be.
No, it's not. It's a reaction to the fact that @fuckface's software is blatantly, obviously, scarily shite, both in concept and implementation. It's horrible to use. Hell, see @darkmatter's post earlier - he's a guy that's been working hard to break it, and even he was surprised. It's not near v1 status, it's possibly approaching developer beta quality.
The fact <a @twatwood is not ashamed of it, and refuses to accept that there's anything wrong with it at a conceptual level is merely the icing on the cake.
I'm pretty sure it's a dedicated host, like the old forums.
And Alex was getting assraped on the CS hosting as well. Why? Because CS requires Windows hosting. And why did Alex stick with CS, despite it being shite? Because he doesn't understand anything that isn't windows, and isn't willing to learn. So he was stuck with dysfunctional software written by drooling mongs, which no-one was willing to support, running on expensive hosting.Now, of course, things have progressed. He has dysfunctional software written by drooling mongs, that no-one can understand, running on expensive hosting that he doesn't even understand.
Alex [is] a fucking idiot
Quite.
-
First point: I still have to manually type in HTML for shit here too. And worse, they're fucking entities.
Also, it's a VPS here because nothing less than a 1GB RAM VPS will even run Discourse, 2GB RAM recommended.
If you already have a dedicated server with available capacity, it doesn't cost you anything to add more stuff on it. The original point was, Alex is throwing money away at bandwidth, which doesn't make sense.
No, before this bulllshit the only time I used Markdown was ... <rant> ... broken by-design, but there's no fucking way to even "code to the spec" because there is no spec ... <rant> ... that uses Markdown is BoingBoing, and that's because those hipster retards ... <rant> ... GIVE A FUCK. GIVE A FUCK ABOUT THE QUALITY OF SOFTWARE. Don't just give up and die sitting under your Mexican restaurant sewer pipe, but maybe... maybe do something?
Agreed, markdown sucks.
Who uses markdown? Reddit. Tumblr. Bloggers. People who are generating "post"-like content but aren't using forums anymore. Exactly the kind of people discourse is targeting. If they pull it off, this could be a great coup over the traditional forums.
BBCode? Ok as an option, but not a good idea if you're planning long term.
Agree about WYSIWYG. They should have slapped some free one on top of this, even if just as an option.
And if the passage they want includes an image? Oh you're fucked. What if it has a link? Fucked. What if the passage contains crossed-out text and quoting it without formatting completely changes the meaning? Fucked again.
Go back to CS. Notice how it would only quote what you selected with your magical mouse-machine, but also retained the formatting. This is one way in which Discourse is provably, unquestionably, significantly worse than forum software that came before it.
Yeah, they need to tweak the text formatting. However, I agree with Discourse about clearing out images, lists, inner quotes, etc. You should click on the extend button for that. Otherwise, it just dumps out tons of repeat content on the page.
I've been to CS. It beautifully takes the entire html content you selected with your magical mouse machine and dumps it in the quote. And it SUCKS. It creates unreadable threads with endlessly repeating content that are a BARRIER TO READING Quoting the entire post is WRONG and you're using it WRONG if you try it. Akhm.. where was I? I blacked out for a second there.
GitHub actually supports a number of readme formats, including plain text if you use README or README.txt as your filename.
And that has to do with the discussion........ what?
Ok. There's the "A" of your A/B test. Now where's the "B" population?
I don't need the B path. I can just pontificate about this from my ivory tower and disseminate my sage findings among the unwashed populace.
That at least has the advantage of being somewhat predictable so you don't have to retry different variations of the same formatting to see if maybe this time, it'll work.
Wouldn't writing pure html here achieve the same purpose? I didn't try it because I never had such huge problems with editor, but I assume starting each line with
<p>would short-circuit most of the formatting rules.
-
but I assume starting each line with <p> would short-circuit most of the formatting rules.
Given you can mix and match html, bbcode and markdown within the same post, see http://what.thedailywtf.com/t/markup-in-general/777, I don't think so...
-
-
BTW, @onyx, @blakeyrat, @Arantor, back to the main issue.
You guys all posted thousands of words on the site. So you can obviously produce and consume content, follow topics and generally use the software to communicate with the community. And if you just use simple tags and image links in the editor, which is 99% of the time, everything works pretty much OK. Sure, if you try something more complex, things start to break, but it's not like you've had a better experience on CS.
So I guess what I just don't understand is, why so emo?
I would understand if there were major bugs with the software, like posts getting lost or corrupted. But no, most of the problems left are just... glitches. The kind of stuff that for me is between "meh" and "mildly annoying". Yet, it produces so much vitriol and drama, to the point of people threatening to leave. Like, you've put up with not being able to drag the image over and "-5" turning to "-1", but strike-through getting stripped was the last straw? Goodbye cruel world and fuck you alex?
Be honest. If the software had nothing to do with Jeff Atwood, and you just happened to come here to read and post a few WTFs, would you even notice or care for that shit?
-
Be honest. If the software had nothing to do with Jeff Atwood, and you just happened to come here to read and post a few WTFs, would you even notice or care for that shit?
Well, the software would have still been Rails/Ruby based and stereotypically there would still be some elitist douchebag in charge.
-
Well, the software would have still been Rails/Ruby passed and stereotypically there would still be some elitist douchebag in charge.
How would you know it's rails?
-
I can't speak for @Onyx or @blakeyrat but I have a particular reason for my bile.
I used to work on SMF core development. I added thousands of lines of code to it, found bugs, fixed bugs. And that's not counting the thousands of hours I've contributed to the ecosystem.
Every time he bitches about the toxic open source crap is an insult about something I have spent time on.
Worse: I come from a place that isn't so spiffy and full of Web 2.0rhea as Discourse does. Yes, SMF isn't perfect, but it works basically as intended and they do fix security bugs and whatnot and they're a group of volunteers trying to do the right thing. I've seen what the 'classic 1999-era forums' do, and I like that. I'm enough of a fan of it to have poured thousands of hours into it, and I genuinely believe I know better than Jeff about what makes fucking forums work.
But instead of listening to what I had to say because my experience might have been worth something, I'm treated as though I know nothing, which given my time investment is a serious kick in the balls.
I don't expect respect, especially not from Atwood, but if I put the time and effort into writing something I'd hope some recognition of my time was taken, and I try to do the same for what others write. Someone having put in some time deserves someone taking the time to appreciate and try to understand the point of view, even if not agreed with.
You guys and I may not agree on things but by and large we respect the experiences we've all had and that we've put the time into sharing. It fucks me off no end that Jeff doesn't and that because he is so adamant that he knows best, he refuses to listen to someone who could give him useful advice born out of experience about the specific field he is in.
-
If the software had nothing to do with Jeff Atwood, and you just happened to come here to read and post a few WTFs, would you even notice or care for that shit?
Absolutely.We were promised something better than CS. That wasn't what was delivered, despite there being any number of other forum hosting packages out there which are better than CS. Hell, it's not like the bar is particularly high; almost every forum package out there is better than CS.
But Discourse isn't better than CS. It's shit. It's just as shit as CS in many ways, and fundamentally worse in several others. It manages to be better in a couple of ways, but, in order to do so, it takes enormous amounts of computing "muscle" (both server and client side), meaning it's not feasible to run it on anything but the very latest <x>.
Atwood's involvement has nothing to do with my reaction to it. He's a cunt, and I want to poke him up the ass with a barbed-wire wrapped umbrella for having puked up this festering pile of shit, but it could have been written by any other cunt and my reaction would be the same.
-
…aaaaaaand another fucking bug.
At least 3 direct replies to cartman's post, but what do I see?
It's truly fuckawful.
-
Ok, I see where you're coming from. I deleted about 5 jokes poking fun at you. I'll just point out you pretty much confirm the thesis that discourse bashing (for you) is pretty much proxy for Jeff Atwood bashing.
We were promised something better than CS. That wasn't what was delivered, despite there being any number of other forum hosting packages out there which are better than CS. Hell, it's not like the bar is particularly high; almost every forum package out there is better than CS.
Ok, but is raping someone with a barbed wire wrapped umbrella an appropriate reaction for getting a slightly worse gift than you expected?
It manages to be better in a couple of ways, but, in order to do so, it takes enormous amounts of computing "muscle" (both server and client side), meaning it's not feasible to run it on anything but the very latest <x>.
Again with the performance. What do you care? Does alex have you locked up in basement, spinning pedals to power up his server farm?
-
Okay, I wrote
… it's not feasible to run it on anything …
(and yes, I'm deliberately leaving the Discourse quoting attribution fuckup in place) when I meant… it's not feasible to access it on anything …
Fuck Alex and his hosting costs. If he's stupid enough to piss money up the wall hosting this shit, that's his problem.
is raping someone with a barbed wire wrapped umbrella an appropriate reaction for getting a slightly worse gift than you expected?
Fuckin' A. You really don't want to forget my birthday.
-
Be honest. If the software had nothing to do with Jeff Atwood, and you just happened to come here to read and post a few WTFs, would you even notice or care for that shit?
To be honest, I've held a much higher opinion of Jeff Atwood prior to the Discourse Disaster than now.
And also to be honest, I don't think he's close enough to an attractive female to need an Internet White Knight to defend him. Yep, we're going to bash Jeff Atwood for his insane development practices, so what?
