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What, at the end of the day, do I care if women work in IT or not? Why should I care?
Covered in
Filed under: monocultures are unhealthy
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All I'm trying to do here is to point out that from an outsider's perspective, it is really obvious that this web site is hostile
to womenand that anybody who cares aboutwomen's place in technologytheir sanity would be wise to steer clear.Actually, my favorite thing about this silly troll of a topic is that it's actually a TDWTF Meta thing and not a DC meta thing.
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That is, capitalism's defining feature is that is allows private individuals to restrict other individuals ability to work productively.
It was said once, but it should be said again: TDEMSYR
This assumes that you have a right to someone else's property to do with as you please. And it also assumes that we can all use each other's property without being constrained by things like the laws of physics.
I hope you stick around. I'm sure you'll provide plenty of WTFs in your commentary.
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The closest we've come is that bastard offspring of Keynes call a "mixed economy".
And even so, the imperfection of our free markets have lifted more people out of horrible poverty and benefited mankind more than anything else.
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Your problem is the same. “I've got mine, don't give a fuck about the rest.”
Is this a @flabdablet sockpuppet? Or merely a fellow traveler?
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I think I'll go @Arantor in that it seems there is just something about STEM that females in general find unappealing.
Based on what fields they seem to be going into, that's not quite correct. They seem very interested in life sciency sort of things. It seems to me that it's fields closer to / with more math where they are underrepresented.
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But there's so much real inequality I find screaming only about women problems a bit selfish TBH.
There were serious problems that previous versions of feminism helped fix in the West. There are still millions of women in the world worse off than western women were, even hundreds of years ago. Your typical womens studies department at a university is now either all about micro-aggressions, imaginary problems or trying to bring about a marxist-lesbianism utopia, if not all three.
Most people hear about feminism and still think it's about voting rights and sexual harassment. And then self proclaimed (amateur) feminists offer the President a blow job for declaring he wants women to be able to kill their unborn children.
But, yeah, guys who think divorce law has gone too far are probably why there aren't many women who like sitting in front of computers eating Cheetos.
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This assumes that you have a right to someone else's property to do with as you please.
Except that all property is, in the first instance, acquired purely by right of conquest, because nothing starts out its existence as property (with one exception).
Filed under: flame on!
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There are still millions of women in the world worse off than western women were, even hundreds of years ago.
This. Most of the problems women in first world countries still encounter are due to assholes. Assholes are, mostly, also bullies. Whining about micro-agressions doesn't stop them, it feeds them.
Third-world countries are indeed a different subject. And in those countries, things that feminism did right for the Western world already should be replicated. I'm not gonna go around suggesting how, because I honestly don't know. But show me someone who does and needs my help, and I'm there.
I do, however, know what doesn't help: whining on tumblr and youtube.
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Except that all property is, in the first instance, acquired purely by right of conquest, because nothing starts out its existence as property (with one exception).
Well, uh, played, sir. I guess we should all just go sit down and wait to die, because conquest sounds too much like the misogyny that's keeping women from the glorious future of
Next TuesdayIT work. I just can't live with myself now that you've made it so clear.I eagerly await your sophistry dismissal of physics.
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I eagerly await your sophistry dismissal of physics.
First, pray tell whence comes property, 'coz I think I mentioned the physics angle above.
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This is doomed to become a stale discussion.
Until @jetcitywoman (currently our only almost-active known female member?) comes in and brings one or two womanly anecdotes and opinions with her, we're just a bunch of 20-40 year old western dudes talking about women. That makes no sense, we retards.
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First, pray tell whence comes property, 'coz I think I mentioned the physics angle above.
I guess you did address the physics with assuming scarcity. I would say property comes down to a collective agreement about who owns it. Could be based on force, mutually beneficial trading or finders keepers.
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...we're just a bunch of 20-40 year old western dudes talking about women. That makes no sense, we retards.
Bullshit (on the last bit, not the first).
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I would say property comes down to a collective agreement about who owns it
What if, for the sake of argument, we find ourselves in a situation where the non-owning collective (meaning, in this case, the majority of the population) decides - by popular vote - that the incumbent owners should no longer own what they do, or at least not so much of it?
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Flame on indeed...wow!
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What if, for the sake of argument, we find ourselves in a situation where the non-owning collective (meaning, in this case, the majority of the population) decides - by popular vote - that the incumbent owners should no longer own what they do, or at least not so much of it?
It would be really bad. We don't really need to imagine, since it's happened many times already. In theory, I live in a country with laws that do not permit this. In reality, people have worked really hard at getting around those laws, and it sucks, but not as badly as places where it Just Happens.
Of course, the real point of your troll is to do a Gotcha! on taxes. I see them as a necessary evil to fund the government. They should be minimized, as should the duties of the government. Clowns like @flabdablet will attack me with straw men about taxes or the duties of government, because he cannot apparently take the time to understand people who disagree with them. OTOH, I think you're just trolling me, which is cool.
As with everything, it's the dose that makes the poison.
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Of course, the real point of your troll is to do a Gotcha! on taxes.
Is it? Thanks for letting me know.
I was merely trying to draw logical conclusions from your proposition that property is a question of collective agreement.
If you continue to contend so, can this agreement come up for revision? If not, why not? And are those who never entered into such an agreement bound by it? If not, why not?
Filed under: I'll show you a real troll
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I was merely trying to draw logical conclusions from your proposition that property is a question of collective agreement.
Uh huh.
If you continue to contend so, can this agreement come up for revision? If not, why not? And are those who never entered into such an agreement bound by it? If not, why not?
Can it? Of course. Like I said, there are plenty of examples. You're asking the wrong question. Should it? That's the right question (and the one marxist morons with sand in their vaginas are usually really trying to answer). Is anyone bound by anything? If you decide you aren't bound and act accordingly, there may be consequences.
Maybe a person could be bound by hypnosis or, like, vampire mind control. I've never experienced either one (that I'm aware of).
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Should it? That's the right question
Indeed! Brilliant! Should it, then? In what circumstances?
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I would say property comes down to a collective agreement about who owns it.
Isn't it more about an idea, not an agreement? I might disagree (vehemently or otherwise) with you owning a thing, but that doesn't change the factual control of the item. Control of the item is what creates the concept of ownership, doesn't it?
I'm thinking of agreement here as two people shaking hands and saying WE'RE OK WITH THIS, rather than objective agreement such as measurement agreeing with the theory.
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I'm thinking of agreement here as two people shaking hands and saying WE'RE OK WITH THIS, rather than objective agreement such as measurement agreeing with the theory.
I'm thinking more about people respecting the claim in some manner.
In what circumstances?
Many circumstances!
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I'm thinking more about people respecting the claim in some manner.
That's what I meant.
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what I'm suggesting is that it might actually be nice to change programming culture from an aggressive ‘Worse Than Fail’ culture to something a bit more understanding of where other people are coming from.
Fair enough. You start. Instead of this:
See, you claim you're not a mra, but it's statements like that that keep setting my mra-sense off.
Why not try understanding @Arantor's position, after which you'll be better able to judge whether he is an MRA or not?
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Is this a @flabdablet sockpuppet? Or merely a fellow traveler?
@flabdablet is your garden-variety socialist. @Buddy is either a Marxist or pretending to be one for fun and profit.
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@flabdablet is your garden-variety socialist. @Buddy is either a Marxist or pretending to be one for fun and profit.
He used one of @flabdablet's favorite straw men. Though since he didn't froth about some Murdoch property, they're probably just fellow travelers. Or IHBT.
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He used one of @flabdablet's favorite straw men. Though since he didn't froth about some Murdoch property, they're probably just fellow travelers. Or IHBT.
Distinguishing trolls from Marxists isn't worth the effort IMO.
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Distinguishing trolls from Marxists isn't worth the effort IMO.
Fair point. Perhaps Putin made him do it.
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Is it lunch time yet?
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Before I forget, there's a related post I wrote on another topic. In fact, it appears that I was replying to you, @buddy.
http://what.thedailywtf.com/t/the-wtfs-that-turned-out-not-to-be-wtfs/393/44
My point is, I think @buddy is on a crusade in this forum. @buddy just want's more women in IT, and contributing to TDWTF, and feels that it is our responsibility to make sure it happens. In fact, since joining on May 30, @buddy has made 13 posts, all of which are either in this topic, Non-IT WTF: Feminism WTF, or directly relate to this topic. @Buddy isn't here for the IT WTFs, he/she/it is here to push their agenda and lay the blame for their crusade at our feet. I say we should just ignore he/she/it, or maybe @buddy could be our next notification sacrifice, since mikeTheLiar asked us to leave him alone.
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I say we should just ignore he/she/it
Which would be immensely easier if there were a proper ignore feature in Discourse. Only option I know of otherwise is to use Stylish and add a custom style like:
article[data-user-id="###"] { display:none; }But that doesn't stop notifications, and it still lists new posts/topics by the user in question.
Filed under: [So the Markdown parser is getting worse... joy](#tag2), [for reference, @Buddy's user-id is 676](#tag2)
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Which would be immensely easier if there were a proper ignore feature in Discourse. Only option I know of otherwise is to use Stylish and add a custom style like:
article[data-user-id="###"] { display:none; }But that doesn't stop notifications, and it still lists new posts/topics by the user in question.
Filed under: [So the Markdown parser is getting worse... joy](), [for reference, @buddy's user-id is 676]()Well, there are other options. Like using @buddy as the next victim of the notification bomb. Or asking a mod to block he/she/it. Since @buddy's already convinced of who we are, might as well get rid of him/her/it.
Edit: Yay, quoting broke! Calling @codinghorror and @sam!
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As far as I am aware, they know quoting is broke when you quote a <code> block.
Kinda odd, though, since you did a quote, but broke the quote, it doesn't say who you're replying to (so you're replying to the topic?), and there's no quote...
Filed under: [can't say anything about notifications, I had this topic Muted](#tag2)
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Well, there are other options. Like using @buddy as the next victim of the notification bomb. Or asking a mod to block he/she/it. Since @buddy's already convinced of who we are, might as well get rid of him/her/it.
Bah. That's no fun. Better to confront him with the silliness of his views. I find that the cognitive dissonance makes this sort of person really upset, which is kind of funny, and maybe therapeutic for them.
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As far as I am aware, they know quoting is broke when you quote a <code> block.
That should be a priority fix since we are an IT forum. I would have expected @codinghorror to test this pretty early on, at least with his background.
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Damn, I guess I can't modify the quote or it breaks things. Was going to see if I could replicate what you did where you tried quoting, it failed and didn't say it was a reply, unless you did it weird.
Filed under: [Because every Meta topic is effectively the precursor to a bug report, right?](#tag2), [question is, what do you do in Discourse that isn't weird?](#tag2)
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The real reason why women is not sticking around to be programmer is that they like giving direction instead of doing work. So they become managers quickly. This is case in my company. No woman team member is staying long enough to become productive programmer.
Maybe woman is simply good at this climbing the ladder, but men are good at sticking in the mud.
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Better to confront him with the silliness of his views. I find that the cognitive dissonance makes this sort of person really upset, which is kind of funny ...
This does seem to be working, at least somewhat.
... and maybe therapeutic for them.
Unless they're too far gone. Based on @Buddy's repeated misinterpretation of things that have been said, both in a post I made on another topic, and things @Arantor said in this topic, I think it's too late.
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The real problem with women in IT...
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It would be really bad. We don't really need to imagine, since it's happened many times already. In theory, I live in a country with laws that do not permit this. In reality, people have worked really hard at getting around those laws, and it sucks, but not as badly as places where it Just Happens.
More to the point, the US is relatively young as nations go and so hasn't seen the sort of crisis yet that would push people to such extremes. The last time there was a real global feeling of that sort of thing (late 18th/early 19th Centuries), the US could satisfy people through continental colonial expansion (unless you happened to be a native american, in which case you were very thoroughly on the receiving end of this “transfer of ownership” activity). Things were rather different in Europe, where the crisis of that time caused a general collapse of the ancien régime (plus a lot of reaction to that) and triggering a series of wars that ultimately culminated in the two World Wars. One of the major triggers of that was the general financial rapaciousness of the French elite, who were very good at requiring spending by others on their behalf while not contributing a lot in the way of taxes. Other places had similarities, but France seems to have had it worst, and was where things triggered.
“It would be really bad.” is a great summary. In fact, we've got no idea how bad it would be, or who would actually end up coming out on top, and that's one of the main things acting as a brake on a repeat of the process. If only the various elites would remember that restraint is required on their part to prevent failure of that brake…
Curiously, I've recently been reading about the Sicilian Vespers, which appears to have had many interesting parallels. I'm not nearly a good enough amateur historian to be able to grok more than that as yet…
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More right than wrong about capitalism or more right than wrong about misandry, or how much apparent misogyny is on this forum?
Yes, yes, and before this thread, I would have said no. So that's yes, yes, and yes.
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See, I don't actually think there's a lot of misogyny on this forum. There is, however, a metric fuckton of misanthropy.
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You have to be careful with this. You may think misogyny means hatred of women. That is no longer true, at least not for the people who use the word on a regular basis. To those people, the word in practice means disagreement with the doctrines of feminism, or in extreme cases, even apathy toward feminism.
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Then it's a very good thing that I and by all appearances most of this forum, understand the word to mean what the dictionary says it means and not what some self-appointed group of supremacists think it means.
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I think it's three and seven eights of a metric fuckton for one imperial shitton.
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Whatever it is, it's probably still too heavy for a woman to lift, but she would still demand equal pay.
Filed Under: [I kid I kid.] ()
What Can Men Do?
