Apple Mail fail

mikeTheLiar

@dhromed said:
I cannot imagine what the point of that would be.

Some people want two levels of "read" marker. The first of these is the actual "read" marker. The second is whether the email is still in the inbox or not. These people will say things like, "I need to clean my inbox," or "your inbox is sure cluttered." I refer to these people as "idiots".

I could see moving emails from the inbox into, say, project-specific email folders. I could see deleting emails you're sure you won't need. But I don't see the point of moving them from the inbox purely so that they're moved from the inbox. (Which is what "archive" does.)

Digital hoarding, basically.

boomzilla

@blakeyrat said:

@dhromed said:
I cannot imagine what the point of that would be.

Some people want two levels of "read" marker. The first of these is the actual "read" marker. The second is whether the email is still in the inbox or not. These people will say things like, "I need to clean my inbox," or "your inbox is sure cluttered." I refer to these people as "idiots".

I could see moving emails from the inbox into, say, project-specific email folders. I could see deleting emails you're sure you won't need. But I don't see the point of moving them from the inbox purely so that they're moved from the inbox. (Which is what "archive" does.)

If I read an email and deal with it (which could have been just the action of reading it) I'll archive it. Sometimes I get an email that I need to reply to, or that has a link that I want to look at, but I don't have time for it right now or some other action. By archiving stuff that I don't have any need to be particularly handy or accessible, I have my stuff that I need to do something about right there. It's not at all about moving things for the joy of moving things. It's about dismissing things that can be dismissed so they don't act as distractions later on.

john

@blakeyrat said:

Some people want two levels of "read" marker. The first of these is the actual "read" marker. The second is whether the email is still in the inbox or not. These people will say things like, "I need to clean my inbox," or "your inbox is sure cluttered." I refer to these people as "idiots".

I could see moving emails from the inbox into, say, project-specific email folders. I could see deleting emails you're sure you won't need. But I don't see the point of moving them from the inbox purely so that they're moved from the inbox. (Which is what "archive" does.)

It's exciting (no, really) that you have the willpower to deal with an email as soon as you read it, the forethought to know exactly which emails you'll need in the future, and the time and patience to make a judgement on each one.

The rest of us will have to make do with reading and replying to emails at our convenience, archiving them when we think we've dealt with them and pulling them back up by typing a couple keywords when we need them again later. Yeah, this could be achieved by putting the mails in a folder called "Things I might need later so I'll keep them just in case". But "archive" as an action is better compatible with the concept of labels, and having dedicated shortcuts and buttons for it is helpful.

locallunatic

@boomzilla said:

If I read an email and deal with it (which could have been just the action of reading it) I'll archive it. Sometimes I get an email that I need to reply to, or that has a link that I want to look at, but I don't have time for it right now or some other action.

I guess I can see something like that depending on how you treat emails. It just seems a bit strange because you are reading email when you don't have time to do things. Is there a reason for doing this? Do you get urgent requests to look at things only via email or something?

blakeyrat

@jmap said:

It's exciting (no, really) that you have the willpower to deal with an email as soon as you read it,

I don't know what makes you think I have that. I'm a total slacker when it comes to email.

But if I don't handle it right away and I need to, I already have a tool for that: select email, set "Mark as Unread." I don't need another tool.

@jmap said:

the forethought to know exactly which emails you'll need in the future,

I don't have that. I just keep all of them.

@jmap said:

and having dedicated shortcuts and buttons for it is helpful.

Demonstrably it leads to data loss.

boomzilla

@locallunatic said:

@boomzilla said:
If I read an email and deal with it (which could have been just the action of reading it) I'll archive it. Sometimes I get an email that I need to reply to, or that has a link that I want to look at, but I don't have time for it right now or some other action.

I guess I can see something like that depending on how you treat emails. It just seems a bit strange because you are reading email when you don't have time to do things. Is there a reason for doing this? Do you get urgent requests to look at things only via email or something?

There are multiple reasons. I might need to call someone, and it might not be a good time for them (outside of business hours, asleep, etc). It could be something that will take considerable time, or something that I need to research. I might just not have the patience or whatever for that particular thing. I might just want to think about it for a while before I reply.

Is this sort of thing really that foreign to people? Are you people the types who consider twitter an improvement over email? How do you deal with the sorts of things I mentioned?

Zemm

@blakeyrat said:

Right; because that change would move it even further from the key's purpose of "deleting things".

There's no backspace key on a Mac keyboard. There is only delete.

Though in windows explorer (can't remember Finder behaviour with keyboard shortcuts) delete will archive the file in the recycle bin (Trash) so it is not immediately deleted. And in a text editor there is still undo so it's not properly deleted either. So using the delete key for archive is not wrong.

blakeyrat

@Zemm said:

There's no backspace key on a Mac keyboard. There is only delete.

Really? Apple added a Backspace back in the early PPC days-- did they go and remove it again?

boomzilla

@blakeyrat said:

But if I don't handle it right away and I need to, I already have a tool for that: select email, set "Mark as Unread." I don't need another tool.

There are a couple of reasons I don't do this. First, it gets buried by newer email that comes in. Second, to me, unread email is new email, and this email isn't. That's a less important point, and it's basically a matter of personal taste.

john

@blakeyrat said:

set "Mark as Unread."

I like to keep track of which emails I've read but not finished dealing with and those I've read and dealt with, but that's just me. And another few hundred million idiots.

@blakeyrat said:

Demonstrably it leads to data loss.

Tro-lo-lol-lol. All that's been demonstrated is that I need to find a more reliable mail program.

locallunatic

@boomzilla said:

@locallunatic said:
@boomzilla said:
If I read an email and deal with it (which could have been just the action of reading it) I'll archive it. Sometimes I get an email that I need to reply to, or that has a link that I want to look at, but I don't have time for it right now or some other action.

I guess I can see something like that depending on how you treat emails. It just seems a bit strange because you are reading email when you don't have time to do things. Is there a reason for doing this? Do you get urgent requests to look at things only via email or something?

There are multiple reasons. I might need to call someone, and it might not be a good time for them (outside of business hours, asleep, etc). It could be something that will take considerable time, or something that I need to research. I might just not have the patience or whatever for that particular thing. I might just want to think about it for a while before I reply.

Is this sort of thing really that foreign to people? Are you people the types who consider twitter an improvement over email? How do you deal with the sorts of things I mentioned?

OK, I guess I just track the longer term things differently (put it on my task list) than you do. At work I've set up my email client to pop up a little warning when I get messages from those coworkers that think of email as real time rather (generally enough so I can tell if I need to inturupt what I'm doing) than as a when you get to it system.

boomzilla

@locallunatic said:

OK, I guess I just track the longer term things differently (put it on my task list) than you do.

Yeah, for something that I'll get to in a few hours or tomorrow or whatever, I'm not going to put it on a task list. Or, like, a link to a video from a friend, so maybe I'll wait until lunch or after work to watch it.

@locallunatic said:

At work I've set up my email client to pop up a little warning when I get messages from those coworkers that think of email as real time rather (generally enough so I can tell if I need to inturupt what I'm doing) than as a when you get to it system.

Coworkers can hit me up on IM if they need something immediate. Clients will pick up the phone in that case.

Helix

@locallunatic said:

OK, I guess I just track the longer term things differently (put it on my task list) than you do. At work I've set up my email client to pop up a little warning when I get messages from those coworkers that think of email as real time rather (generally enough so I can tell if I need to inturupt what I'm doing) than as a when you get to it system.

Those are the people who you need to delete their emails immediately and permanently.

DrakeSmith

@blakeyrat said:

@dhromed said:
I cannot imagine what the point of that would be.

Some people want two levels of "read" marker. The first of these is the actual "read" marker. The second is whether the email is still in the inbox or not. These people will say things like, "I need to clean my inbox," or "your inbox is sure cluttered." I refer to these people as "idiots".

I could see moving emails from the inbox into, say, project-specific email folders. I could see deleting emails you're sure you won't need. But I don't see the point of moving them from the inbox purely so that they're moved from the inbox. (Which is what "archive" does.)

I think I might have a problem. I... I think agree with blakeyrat. Am I going to be ok?

Helix

@blakeyrat said:

.... I'm a total slacker when it comes to email....

Agree to that, all though I do have a tidy email, I pretty much ignore or delete ALL emails for weeks at a time if I am buried in a project. None of my key tasks at work include

- 'answer endless questions from sales dept, just because I am better than most at forming technical but easy to understand answers'

- 'help some other co-worker with their shit projects’

Zemm

@blakeyrat said:

@Zemm said:
There's no backspace key on a Mac keyboard. There is only delete.

Really? Apple added a Backspace back in the early PPC days-- did they go and remove it again?

It works like (and is in the same position) the PC backspace but it is still called delete. One of my old workmates (not the sharpest though) borrowed a Mac keyboard for his PC and needed to press Del to access the BIOS. Of course it took him a few tries to realise which delete key he should have been pressing.

dhromed

@boomzilla said:

I cannot imagine not imagining the point of getting email out of your inbox.

What's so bad about email in your inbox?

dhromed

@blakeyrat said:

I could see moving emails from the inbox into, say, project-specific email folders.

I do that.

"Archiving" is just moving it from one big folder to another big folder. And you're still going to use search to get to emails. It's a no-op.

dhromed

@boomzilla said:

It's about dismissing things that can be dismissed so they don't act as distractions later on.

I don't see any distractions. It's just a list of things.

@boomzilla said:

Sometimes I get an email that I need to
reply to, or that has a link that I want to look at, but I don't have
time for it right now or some other action.

You mark them with a flag or that color category marker in Outlook.

dhromed

@jmap said:

It's exciting (no, really) that you have the willpower to deal with an email as soon as you read it, the forethought to know exactly which emails you'll need in the future, and the time and patience to make a judgement on each one.

I have none of these things, but I do have tha ability to click on a marker thingy, and then there's a big orange blob next to the email, telling me to revisit later.

@jmap said:

pulling them back up by typing a couple keywords when we need them again later.

I do that with the inbox.

dhromed

@blakeyrat said:

I already have a tool for that: select email, set "Mark as Unread." I don't need another tool.

I used to do that, but it's unstable: it gets unset if you look at the email again, even if you're not explcitly handling the email.

So I use category blobs in Outlook now.

In fact, I use the category blob instead of the flag, because of Outlook UI failure: the flag is on the wrong side of the columns, which can't be reordered, and much less visible in general.

dhromed

@boomzilla said:

Is this sort of thing really that foreign to people?

No,it's not foreign, it's common, but I click the category blob and then it gets an orange blob which seems to make more sense to me (and higher visibility) than the null concept of archiving.

In the end though, now that I think of it: what is the difference between the view of a folder and a view filtered for a single category?

Nothing, I guess.

dhromed

@boomzilla said:

Second, to me, unread email is new email, and this email isn't.

This, too, yes.

dhromed

@locallunatic said:

At work I've set up my email client to pop up a little warning when I get messages from those coworkers that think of email as real time

We train those people to not use email like that, and call or walk when it's important.

dhromed

@Zemm said:

It works like (and is in the same position) the PC backspace but it is still called delete. One of my old workmates (not the sharpest though) borrowed a Mac keyboard for his PC and needed to press Del to access the BIOS. Of course it took him a few tries to realise which delete key he should have been pressing.

This is the kind of UI fuckup I actually did not expect from Apple.

Then again, those micro keyboards are pretty terrible as well!

Frits_a_k_a_Fritso

@db2 said:

Who the hell even "archives" mail anyway? What purpose does it serve, besides satisfying some neurotic desire to organize things?

Anyone with a real job who wants to keep said job. Of course, if your work e-mail account is Gmail then you probably shouldn't bother. (By archive I mean move all mail over a year old to some secure location.)

john

@dhromed said:

"Archiving" is just moving it from one small set (those labelled "inbox") to another bigger set (those not labelled "inbox")

FTFY

@dhromed said:

It's a no-op.

Specifically, it's the removal of the "Inbox" label.

@dhromed said:

what is the difference between the view of a folder and a view filtered for a single category? Nothing, I guess.

Right. Actually "inbox" in modern day Gmail is not even a folder, it is just "all mail" filtered for a single label: inbox.

john

@Frits a.k.a. Fritso said:

@db2 said:
Who the hell even "archives" mail anyway? What purpose does it serve, besides satisfying some neurotic desire to organize things?
Anyone with a real job who wants to keep said job. Of course, if your work e-mail account is Gmail then you probably shouldn't bother. (By archive I mean move all mail over a year old to some secure location.)

If my workplace expected its employees to take personal responsibility for archiving (original, non-Gmail definition) their work mail I think I'd start brushing up my CV.

boomzilla

@dhromed said:

@boomzilla said:
I cannot imagine not imagining the point of getting email out of your inbox.

What's so bad about email in your inbox?

Nothing per se. But newer email that I'm done with buries older emails that I'm not done with if I don't archive stuff when I'm done with it.

@dhromed said:

@boomzilla said:
It's about dismissing things that can be dismissed so they don't act as distractions later on.
I don't see any distractions. It's just a list of things.

Yes, but is it a list of a few things that need attention, or a list of lots of stuff with a few things that need attention sprinkled around. The chaff distracts from the wheat.

@dhromed said:

@boomzilla said:
Sometimes I get an email that I need to
reply to, or that has a link that I want to look at, but I don't have
time for it right now or some other action.
You mark them with a flag or that color category marker in Outlook.

I can see how that would work. But then I'd need to go to that category, instead of having it right there in my face every time I go to my inbox. As I said before, some of this is certainly personal preference, but this workflow suits my slacker lifestyle. I should also probably mention that I only use gmail for personal email. Work stuff is entirely different.

In any case, when you're done with an email, you have to click something to be done with it. Whether that's clicking on your inbox, closing a window or another button, there's a click. I just click on the "Archive" button and I'm done, ready to move on to the next thing. Chances are, I'll never have to look at that archived email again. But if I do, I can just search for it, and it's no longer cluttering up my view of my inbox.

Zemm

@dhromed said:

Then again, those micro keyboards are pretty terrible as well!

I quite like the aluminium keyboards for typing, but of course I use the full sized USB one for my iMac. Bluetooth keyboards are all pretty terrible.

too_many_usernames

@Zemm said:

Though in windows explorer (can't remember Finder behaviour with keyboard shortcuts) delete will archive the file in the recycle bin (Trash) so it is not immediately deleted.

I think I've just realized the problem. Language is now evolving so quickly that words no longer have constant meaning, so that things like "archive" and "recycle bin*" are now synonymous.

*Because I know I always put things in the recycling bin when I think I might want to dig them out a couple weeks later.**

**Yes I know this is an argument from decades ago when Microsoft chose that stupid name.

antiquarian

@DrakeSmith said:

I think I might have a problem. I... I think agree with blakeyrat. Am I going to be ok?

If it only happens once, it's probably not worth worrying about.

locallunatic

@dhromed said:

@locallunatic said:
At work I've set up my email client to pop up a little warning when I get messages from those coworkers that think of email as real time

We train those people to not use email like that, and call or walk when it's important.

How do you train them? I've tried a few different kinds of responses but nothing seems to get through to some of our support people.

blakeyrat

@dhromed said:

@blakeyrat said:
I already have a tool for that: select email, set "Mark as Unread." I don't need another tool.
I used to do that, but it's unstable: it gets unset if you look at the email again, even if you're not explcitly handling the email.

Why would you look at it again if you're not prepared to handle it? You already know what's in it!

I think I win the "person who least overcomplicates email" award in this thread.

PJH

@locallunatic said:

@dhromed said:
@locallunatic said:
At work I've set up my email client to pop up a little warning when I get messages from those coworkers that think of email as real time

We train those people to not use email like that, and call or walk when it's important.

How do you train them? I've tried a few different kinds of responses but nothing seems to get through to some of our support people.

Were any of the responses you tried , "none" or "delayed"?

locallunatic

@PJH said:

@locallunatic said:
@dhromed said:
@locallunatic said:
At work I've set up my email client to pop up a little warning when I get messages from those coworkers that think of email as real time
We train those people to not use email like that, and call or walk when it's important.
How do you train them? I've tried a few different kinds of responses but nothing seems to get through to some of our support people.
Were any of the responses you tried , "none" or "delayed"?

Yep. That just gets me more copies demanding why I'm not looking at it. It's kinda funny when you come back from vacation and you've got 30 or so over several days (and had auto reply set up).

dhromed

@blakeyrat said:

Why would you look at it again if you're not prepared to handle it?

It can happen. Maybe I'm re-discussing it with a coworker while still not really dealing with it. Maybe it's the most recent item that auto-focuses when I open my client. Bam! marked as read. GRANTED that is an implementation problem. Marking behaviour varies across clients. Some will never mark as read again if you've manually marked it unread.

But for the clients I use, re-selecting any unread item will mark it as read, period. So I use flags etc, because they're stable and predictable.

@blakeyrat said:

I think I win the "person who least overcomplicates email" award in this thread.

Maybe you also win the "person who gets the least email" award.

O SNAP SON

dhromed

@locallunatic said:

How do you train them? I've tried a few different kinds of responses but nothing seems to get through to some of our support people.

Fuck 'em. Let them follow up with a call or a walk. They might address your "unresponsiveness" at some point, and then you say "I don't read email in real-time".

But the core idea is Fuck 'em.

boomzilla

@dhromed said:

@locallunatic said:
How do you train them? I've tried a few different kinds of responses but nothing seems to get through to some of our support people.

Fuck 'em. Let them follow up with a call or a walk. They might address your "unresponsiveness" at some point, and then you say "I don't read email in real-time".

But the core idea is Fuck 'em.

Indeed. The key is to not get aggravated when they do because you aren't always sitting on the edge of your seat waiting for them to contact you. They'll either figure it out or put themselves into an early grave. Unless they're like your boss or your job specifically involves quick responses to whatever they're sending you. Then you're fucked.

dhromed

@boomzilla said:

Then you're fucked.

Well, then the toast and sound notifications help, of course.

antiquarian

@locallunatic said:

It's kinda funny when you come back from vacation and you've got 30 or so over several days (and had auto reply set up).

They're doing it wrong. They should have a backup person identified to handle anything that can't wait until you get back.

locallunatic

@PedanticCurmudgeon said:

@locallunatic said:
It's kinda funny when you come back from vacation and you've got 30 or so over several days (and had auto reply set up).

They're doing it wrong. They should have a backup person identified to handle anything that can't wait until you get back.

There are backup people. It's just that my company hires people for production support that don't always have the best problem solving skills (or literacy rates).

dkf

@locallunatic said:

There are backup people.

That sounds like a lot of duplication there. Most places just hire a new person when the old one fails.

@dhromed said:

"Archiving" is just moving it from one big folder to another big folder. And you're still going to use search to get to emails. It's a no-op.

Nope, "archiving" just means "move email out of the inbox". It only means "out of a big box" if you have a big inbox, and it only means "into another big box" if you haven't put that email into another smaller box yet.

If you have filters automatically labelling your email, "archive" means "okay, I'm done with this email for the time being, get it out of my sight, leave it in the right box".

@dhromed said:

In the end though, now that I think of it: what is the difference between the view of a folder and a view filtered for a single category?

Nothing, I guess.

That's the enlightment I had some time ago, when the idea that "Inbox" is just another label really sinked in me.

@blakeyrat said:

I could see moving emails from the inbox into, say, project-specific email folders. I could see deleting emails you're sure you won't need. But I don't see the point of moving them from the inbox purely so that they're moved from the inbox. (Which is what "archive" does.)

"Inbox" is the default filter though, so there's that.

In Gmail there are also the Star and the Important icons, which give you yet another level of organization. Some people may swear by them, some may think they're redundant. Personally, I don't use them but they don't bother me either.

trainbrain27

@too_many_usernames said:

*Because I know I always put things in the recycling bin when I think I might want to dig them out a couple weeks later.**

Adding no value to the conversation, my recycle bin is not automatically emptied and fills so slowly that I empty it quarterly.

Since I started this job, I have recovered documents from it twice to save the effort of reprinting them, and it is the source of all my scratch paper.

So I do use it like my digital recycle bin, which tends to gather copies and minor revisions and is only emptied when my pretty blue drive bar turns red.