The US: saving the world from itself
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@Gąska said in The US: saving the world from itself:
Meanwhile in Poland, comics were made too - just not about superheroes.
There are very few superhero works produced by people working anywhere in Europe; where Europeans work with superheroes, they tend to be working with US companies and often in ways that tend to deconstruct the superheroes. I'm guessing that Europeans just don't think about things the same way.
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@FrostCat said in The US: saving the world from itself:
Bring it, man.
Nah, that sounds like work.
On balance, we come out positive.
But only because you get a huge credit for WW II. After that, you did your best to ruin other nations and call it "nation building" or "defending against communism".
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@asdf The US shut down whaling in the 1920s. Look up when your country did.
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@blakeyrat said in The US: saving the world from itself:
The US shut down whaling in the 1920s.
That, of course, changes everything.
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@asdf It does. The US has a great environmental record on protecting endangered species, banning lead in gasoline and paint, banning asbestos in home products, etc. Whales are endangered now because after the US banned whaling, most European countries doubled-down, built huge factory ships and went to town on whale meat. Well into the 1950s.
You make it sound as if US involvement in WWII is the only thing that makes the existence of the US tolerable. (Which is weird in itself-- what about WWI?)
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@flabdablet said in The US: saving the world from itself:
mrrrka, love it or leave it
under no circumstances argue for improving itMy goodness, you're stupidly obtuse. I've repeatedly stated my feelings, and you have failed to correctly summarize them.
http://www.everydaycitizen.com/2009/02/my_country_right_or_wrong.html
“My country; and my country is the great American Republic. My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.”
But you keep acting like the willfully pig-ignorant provincial yokel, if it makes you happy.
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@asdf said in The US: saving the world from itself:
you did your best to ruin other nations
Yeah, that's what that was.
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@blakeyrat said in The US: saving the world from itself:
...banning lead in gasoline and paint, banning asbestos in home products...
After first introducing lead into gasoline, and using more of it than most other countries combined. Do you still beat your wife?
I realise you're going to claim that you only referenced home products, so this is simply against your 'America-the-environmental-champion' delusion.
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@blakeyrat said in The US: saving the world from itself:
The US has a great environmental record on protecting endangered species
Indubitably, but you also have to consider the fact that the US is orders of magnitude less densely populated than Europe, so you have the chance to preserve habitat of wild animals, while that's sometimes simply impossible in Europe. Also, don't forget that Europe had to be rebuilt after the wars, so you can't blame us for not spending money to preserve wildlife during that period.
@blakeyrat said in The US: saving the world from itself:
You make it sound as if US involvement in WWII is the only thing that makes the existence of the US tolerable.
No, I just reply to your nationalist trolling with nationalist trolling on my own. Also, the US did some really fucked up shit during the cold war, especially in South America.
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@coldandtired said in The US: saving the world from itself:
After first introducing lead into gasoline,
That's because we invented the whole gasoline infrastructure. If the rest of the world hadn't been 15 years behind on that, they'd be the "inventor" of lead in gasoline.
@coldandtired said in The US: saving the world from itself:
Also, "The truth is, however, that the United States is one of very few major industrialized nations that has not banned asbestos entirely in all of its forms".
Right; why would we? Thousands of lives have been saved because asbestos is a much better fire retardant material for firefighter uniforms than anything else.
The danger in asbestos is if the fibers can escape into the air and be breathed-in. Most applications of asbestos make that impossible. Like, that fire fighter's gear might be dangerous if you somehow put it into a shredder, but it's not something that'd keep me awake at night.
Much like the "emissions testing" thing, not banning asbestos isn't a sign that the US is somehow doing things wrong, it's a sign that the US is full of pragmatic and practical people who don't waste time and money on feel-good proposals that accomplish nothing.
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@FrostCat said in The US: saving the world from itself:
you did your best to ruin other nations
Yeah, that's what that was.
So, installing dictators is not "ruining a nation"? Wow, you're delusional.
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@asdf said in The US: saving the world from itself:
Indubitably, but you also have to consider the fact that the US is orders of magnitude less densely populated than Europe, so you have the chance to preserve habitat of wild animals, while that's sometimes simply impossible in Europe.
That's bullshit. Europeans would have had to do it earlier, true, but to say it was impossible to do it at all? Utter crap.
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@blakeyrat said in The US: saving the world from itself:
Europeans would have had to do it earlier
???
Seriously, that's complete and utter BS from your side.
Even if I completely ignore the fact that Europe was always more densely populated than North America throughout known history: Most species went extinct during the 20th century. A time at which Europe was already very densely populated and fought two large wars. So exactly the time frame I was talking about.
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@asdf said in The US: saving the world from itself:
Even if I completely ignore the fact that Europe was always more densely populated than North America throughout known history:
Wow. You're layering bullshit on top of your other bullshit. Hold on, here, that pile of bullshit is gonna collapse.
Unless you consider "known history" to be like, "1700 to now".
@asdf said in The US: saving the world from itself:
Most species went extinct during the 20th century.
Yah and you guys didn't do jack about it. What's your problem?
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@asdf said in The US: saving the world from itself:
So, installing dictators is not "ruining a nation"? Wow, you're delusional.
Problematic regions in Pakistan, Israel, ... It is the British to blame. US was too late to the party, when the collective mind of the humanity decided to be less savage.
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@blakeyrat said in The US: saving the world from itself:
Right; why would we? Thousands of lives have been saved because asbestos is a much better fire retardant material for firefighter uniforms than anything else.
I have a ton of experience in this area and I agree with you. The stupidest example is that asbestos containing floor tile has been banned. There is no practical way to get the asbestos out of a floor tile and into the air without breaking it up into pieces so small that they aren't dangerous to humans. Asbestos floor tile was some great stuff.
Removing asbestos from paint was equally stupid. When you put asbestos in paint, you get a paint that flows great when you apply it so, but pretty much freezes where it is instantly. No drips or runs, but smooth as glass. Same as floor tile - the asbestos was safely encapsulated. It's so safe that the proper way to "make asbestos safe" is to encapsulate it in paint.
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@blakeyrat said in The US: saving the world from itself:
Unless you consider "known history" to be like, "1700 to now".
Let's talk about around 1300.
Wikipedia estimate for Europe: Ca. 100 million people
Wikipedia estimate for pre-Columbus North America: Ca. 54 million peopleLand mass Europe: 10,180,000 km2
Land mass North America: 24,709,000 km2Twice the population on a way smaller continent. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
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@blakeyrat said in The US: saving the world from itself:
Most species went extinct during the 20th century.
Yah and you guys didn't do jack about it. What's your problem?
If you had had to completely rebuild your country, economy and society, you wouldn't have given a fuck about wild animals either. But continue your nationalist trolling if you want to and don't let my facts disturb your opinions.
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@asdf said in The US: saving the world from itself:
So, installing dictators is not "ruining a nation"?
We did some shady shit in Panama. That's... about it.
I'd need specific examples if you're going to assert more than the Panama thing. We helped the Taliban against the Russians? But at the time it didn't seem like a terrible idea. That's more a 20/20 hindsight thing than an "installing dictators" thing.
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@asdf That North America population estimate is way out-of-date. Tenochtitlan alone (circa 1500) is now estimated to have a population of 200,000 - 300,000.
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@blakeyrat said in The US: saving the world from itself:
That North America population estimate is way out-of-date.
Wikipedia mentions that the estimates range from 10-100 million. In any case, way less people per square kilometer.
@blakeyrat said in The US: saving the world from itself:
We did some shady shit in Panama. That's... about it.
Have you completely forgotten about Nicaragua?
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@blakeyrat said in The US: saving the world from itself:
We did some shady shit in Panama. That's... about it.
Deposing the president of Chili in 1973 to install a military dictatorship wasn't shady at all. Pull the other leg.
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@asdf said in The US: saving the world from itself:
Wikipedia mentions that the estimates range from 10-100 million. In any case, way less people per square kilometer.
Right; but it's a stupid wrong estimate based on out-of-date research and dumb assertions. (Like: when natives were documented by Europeans they lived as hunter-gatherers, therefore they always had lived as hunter-gatherers. Untrue; their sophisticated societies broke down after European diseases killed-off an estimated 90-95% of the population, causing the collapse of urban areas never known to the Europeans because their style of construction is virtually invisible to archaeologists.) Tenochtitlan is a somewhat unique case because it was well-documented before the disease caused the collapse of the society.
The Lost City of Z contains a fascinating new estimation of the population along the Amazon River that'll blow your brains. (Not even really a "new" estimation-- de Orellana documented it, but when those areas were revisited after the plague people just assumed he was crazy and/or a liar. Which, to be fair, guy was crazy as fuck.)
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@boomzilla hook, line, and sinker.
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@asdf said in The US: saving the world from itself:
But only because you get a huge credit for WW II. After that, you did your best to ruin other nations and call it "nation building" or "defending against communism".
And good thing we did, too.
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@blakeyrat said in The US: saving the world from itself:
The Lost City of Z contains a fascinating new estimation of the population along the Amazon River that'll blow your brains.
Ah, wait, but now we're talking about South America. I'm aware that South America was very densely populated before the Europeans arrived, and the research is truly fascinating.
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@boomzilla said in The US: saving the world from itself:
And good thing we did, too.
Don't disturb my counter-trolling with facts. ;)
But yeah, not everything was bad, and the European criticism of US foreign policies is often a bit hypocritical since we supported many of your actions. You still did a lot of fucked up shit, though.
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@blakeyrat said in The US: saving the world from itself:
We did some shady shit in Panama. That's... about it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'état
To be fair, United Kingdom was more to blame in this case. This is the father of Islamism in the region, democracy died and Mullahs came to power.
@Khudzlin said in The US: saving the world from itself:
Deposing the president of Chili in 1973 to install a military dictatorship wasn't shady at all. Pull the other leg.
Yes, this too
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@blakeyrat said in The US: saving the world from itself:
I'd need specific examples if you're going to assert more than the Panama thing.
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@asdf said in The US: saving the world from itself:
Ah, wait, but now we're talking about South America.
Right; but it's representative of the Americas as a whole. The point is to demonstrate that those population numbers are shit.
I'm not going to say definitively that North America was more densely populated than Europe in 1300. But I also wouldn't go out on a limb and say they weren't.
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@asdf said in The US: saving the world from itself:
So, installing dictators is not "ruining a nation"? Wow, you're delusional.
As with any action, you have to ask, "Compared with what?"
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@boomzilla I have to say, I think the British have a MUCH worse record than the US ever could.
And don't forget that the Nazi government lasted 11 years and caused more suffering than literally any other human-caused event in history. What continent were they in, again?
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@dse Who are you blaming for the coup d'état in Chili? Surely not the Brits?
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@asdf said in The US: saving the world from itself:
If you had had to completely rebuild your country, economy and society, you wouldn't have given a fuck about wild animals either.
I don't blame you for not spending money on endangered animals or whatever during the war. I blame you guys for starting the damn war in the first place. Pretty much everything else is small potatoes compared to that.
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@asdf said in The US: saving the world from itself:
You still did a lot of fucked up shit, though.
Fucked up situations often call for some fucked up shit, yo. For instance:
@Khudzlin said in The US: saving the world from itself:
Deposing the president of Chili in 1973 to install a military dictatorship
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@blakeyrat said in The US: saving the world from itself:
And don't forget that the Nazi government lasted 11 years and caused more suffering than literally any other human-caused event in history.
Possibly. But I don't think it's too important to disguish the levels of suffering caused by the Hitlers and Stalins and Maos of history.
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@boomzilla Yeah, because an elected dirty commie is so much more dangerous than a military dictatorship.
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@Khudzlin Agreed.
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@boomzilla said in The US: saving the world from itself:
I blame you guys for starting the damn war in the first place.
Hey, we didn't have anything to do with whole pacific part.
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@Luhmann said in The US: saving the world from itself:
Hey, we didn't have anything to do with whole pacific part.
Slackers.
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@blakeyrat said in The US: saving the world from itself:
And don't forget that the Nazi government lasted 11 years and caused more suffering than literally any other human-caused event in history.
Bullshit.
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@blakeyrat said in The US: saving the world from itself:
And don't forget that the Nazi government lasted 11 years
Normal people use years with 12 months in.
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@Gąska said in The US: saving the world from itself:
@blakeyrat said in The US: saving the world from itself:
And don't forget that the Nazi government lasted 11 years and caused more suffering than literally any other human-caused event in history.
Bullshit.
What event(s) would you nominate?
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@blakeyrat said in The US: saving the world from itself:
Right; but it's representative of the Americas as a whole.
I'm not sure you can compare central/south america to north america that easily. From everything we know, there were significant cultural differences. Also, the landscape is not comparable.
@blakeyrat said in The US: saving the world from itself:
The point is to demonstrate that those population numbers are shit.
Of course they're an educated ass-pull, both for Europe and (even more) for the Americas.
@boomzilla said in The US: saving the world from itself:
As with any action, you have to ask, "Compared with what?"
Sorry, in that case no. Installing a brutal dictatorship in a foreign country is not defensible in any way. You have to take a very, very US-centric POV (borderline nationalist) to even start trying to justify that.
@blakeyrat said in The US: saving the world from itself:
And don't forget that the Nazi government lasted 11 years and caused more suffering than literally any other human-caused event in history. What continent were they in, again?
Look, I'm not saying "Europe is so much better than the US". I'm just trying to show you that there is no justification for you to claim a moral high ground over every other country in the world. Not saying that we can do so, either, it's always an arrogant, unjustified and shitty attitude.
BTW, if we're being pedantic, you're wrong. IIRC, Mao killed way more people than Hitler.
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@boomzilla said in The US: saving the world from itself:
What event(s) would you nominate?
He's probably talking about the Chinese revolution.
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@asdf said in The US: saving the world from itself:
Sorry, in that case no. Installing a brutal dictatorship in a foreign country is not defensible in any way. You have to take a very, very US-centric POV to even start trying to justify that.
If you call righteously battling communism as US-centric, then OK. But I would have been for it if a European country had done it, too.
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@asdf said in The US: saving the world from itself:
@boomzilla said in The US: saving the world from itself:
What event(s) would you nominate?
He's probably talking about the Chinese revolution.
Among other shit that happened in the last 4000 years.
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@asdf said in The US: saving the world from itself:
He's probably talking about the Chinese revolution.
But he could be talking about Discourse. YOU DON'T KNOW