The state of Ubuntu on Windows
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@cartman82 well, you know what they say about getting help for Windows...the easiest way to get support is rant about how Linux does X better than Windows and suddenly blakerat will appear to show you how to do X.
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@RaceProUK said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
@wft said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
given that there's no such thing as a package repository with centralized package manager on Windows
fucking iframely/youtube thing spoiling the easter egg i was going to leave…
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@bb36e said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
X
I would certainly hope Linux does X better than Windows...
But Wayland is the future...
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@RaceProUK said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
I can only really speak for Windows, as that's what I have experience with, but the only real difference between a service and a standard app is the service has a few extra entry points the service manager can call
So, basically, Windows requires services to implement signal handlers, while on Linux every program may or may not register signal handlers. Correct?
@RaceProUK said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
Those aren't services.
To clarify: those aren't Windows Services; they're standard desktop programs that (mostly) run in the background.But… Why? This has always bothered me. From a user's POV, everything that continually loops in the background is a service, whether it has a GUI and runs under an actual user account or not. So why does Windows have to treat them so differently and make users look in multiple different places if they want to figure out what services there are on their system?
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@asdf Multiple places? Not really:
@asdf said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
So, basically, Windows requires services to implement signal handlers, while on Linux every program may or may not register signal handlers. Correct?
More accurately, the Service Manager requires the signal handlers; the equivalent on Linux reuses the normal process signals like
SIGTERM
.@asdf said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
From a user's POV, everything that continually loops in the background is a service
Which only goes to show how little most users understand about how computers work.
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@RaceProUK said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
Multiple places? Not really:
I'm aware of the task manager. I'm not talking about figuring out what's running at this precise moment, but finding out which services are configured to run.
@RaceProUK said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
From a user's POV, everything that continually loops in the background is a service
Which only goes to show how little most users understand about how computers work.
Care to elaborate? Why are services so fundamentally different, only because they don't run in a user's session?
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@RaceProUK said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
Which only goes to show how little most users understand about how computers work.
It doesn't really matter to the average user.
The only reason I care is so I know which stuff needs me logged in to run in the background and which doesn't.
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@asdf said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
I'm not talking about figuring out what's running at this precise moment, but finding out which services are configured to run.
If we're talking about proper services, then there's only one place you need to look, and that's the Service Manager; other background tasks can be seen on the Start-up tab in Task Manager (on Win10; can't remember if older Windows have that same tab).
@asdf said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
Care to elaborate? Why are services so fundamentally different, only because they don't run in a user's session?
That's just it: they aren't fundamentally different. They just respond to some extra signals and run under machine accounts; aside from that, they're perfectly normal everyday PE executables, just like userland apps.
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@RaceProUK said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
That's just it: they aren't fundamentally different.
Then why did you dismiss my point?
From a user's POV, everything that continually loops in the background is a service
You're contradicting yourself.
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@asdf said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
Then why did you dismiss my point?
I have dismissed nothing.
@asdf said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
You're contradicting yourself.
I have maintained all along that the only special thing about Windows services is they have a few extra signals to respond to; if you truly think I've claimed different, then I suggest you go back and reread what I wrote.
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@RaceProUK said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
If we're talking about proper services, then there's only one place you need to look, and that's the Service Manager; other background tasks can be seen on the Start-up tab in Task Manager (on Win10; can't remember if older Windows have that same tab).
You do understand that he's saying that "proper services" and "background tasks" are not so different, and that Windows forces users to look in multiple places to figure out what is configured to run in the background, right?
Also: Start Up folder is not the only place where you can start tasks. You can start tasks from the user's control panel. And as Scheduled Tasks. And probably a bunch of other places I can't think of because I use Linux which is far more sane in this regard.
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@Captain And I pointed out that there's a single list that contains the lot. Your point?
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THAT THERE ISN"T A SINGLE LIST, AND YOU SAID SO.
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@Captain I never said there wasn't a single list
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@RaceProUK said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
then there's only one place you need to look, and that's the Service Manager; other background tasks can be seen on the Start-up tab in Task Manager
And there are others, by the way.
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@Captain So the info is available in more than one place. Your point?
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@asdf
One runs under the user session and others don't.
Unfortunately as with most rules exceptions are common.
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That there is no single list that contains all the configured service-like tasks. Just like you said. Just like he said. Just like I'm saying.
Also, apparently that only a few small ideas can fit in your head at the same time, and that you don't sense your own cognitive dissonance. That's an important point that will help you grow.
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@Captain said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
That there is no single list that contains all the configured service-like tasks.
Except the Processes tab in Task Manager, as I showed in the screenshot above.
@Captain said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
Just like you said.
No I didn't; I said the exact opposite.
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@asdf
If nobody is logged on you don't have a user session.
Hence the crappy software that requires a user to be logged on to the server. That shit should be a proper service.
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You said, and I'm quoting you here:
If we're talking about proper services, then there's only one place you need to look, and that's the Service Manager; other background tasks can be seen on the Start-up tab in Task Manager
So that's two places you need to look for service-like tasks.
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And in fact, there are many more. Off the top of my head, you can put tasks in login scripts and in Group Policies (I think).
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@Captain Clearly I imagined posting this screenshot showing a list that contains all background processes:
@RaceProUK said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
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@Captain said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
Linux which is far more sane in this regard.
- You init system
- crontab
- anacron
- probably at least one mechanism in your window manager
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and that's just the ones I can think of off the back of my head.
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Those are running processes, not processes configured to run. There's a difference. How do you deregister CCleaner? Is it the same as how you deregister Google Chrome? Is it the same as how you deregister SQL Server?
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@Captain Please explain how a process can be configured to run and not run
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@RaceProUK it can be configured to start manually, afair?
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@RaceProUK said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
@Captain Please explain how a process can be configured to run and not run
The operating system provides hooks that let users register processes they want to run.... if the user registers a process, then the process has been configured to run.
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@MHolt said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
@RaceProUK it can be configured to start manually, afair?
Yep, which means it's not configured to run, it's configured not to run until it's manually started
@Captain said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
The operating system provides hooks that let users register processes they want to run.... if the user registers a process, then the process has been configured to run.
That's a very long way of saying 'users run programs'
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That's a very long way of saying 'users run programs'
Great. And there are at least 4 different ways a user might have to disable a task that runs automatically... How does the user stop the Google Chrome service from running? It's very different from the way the user would stop SQL server from running. Which is itself very different from the way the user would stop CCleaner.
You're this dense on purpose, right?
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@Captain said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
Google Chrome service
There's no such thing
@Captain said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
CCleaner
Also not a service
@Captain said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
SQL server
That's a service
@Captain said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
You're this dense on purpose, right?
TIL that understanding the difference between a service and a background task makes someone dense
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@RaceProUK said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
TIL that understanding the difference between a service and a background task makes someone dense
Yes, considering that we're talking about service-like tasks, and that the from the user's perspective they are not all that different, and that there are at least 4 mechanisms for launching service-like tasks automatically, it does.
Let me quote my FIRST FUCKING POST on the subject:
You do understand that he's saying that "proper services" and "background tasks" are not so different, and that Windows forces users to look in multiple places to figure out what is configured to run in the background, right?
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@Captain What would help is if you had a consistent point; right now, you're talking circular nonsense
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BACKGROUND TASKS ARE RUN FROM MULTIPLE PLACES, AND THERE IS NO ONE CANONICAL LIST OF TASKS THAT RUN AUTOMATICALLY THE USER CAN LOOK AT TO DECIDE WHAT TO DISABLE.
YOU DEMONSTRABLY AGREE WITH THIS. BUT CLAIM TO DISAGREE.
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@Captain said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
Windows forces users to look in multiple places to figure out what is configured to run in the background
As far as I know, every OS that can run background processes supports multiple mechanisms for configuring and launching them, so I can't see that this fact reflects any deficiency or design weakness in Windows.
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@flabdablet said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
@Captain said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
Windows forces users to look in multiple places to figure out what is configured to run in the background
As far as I know, every OS that can run background tasks at all supports multiple mechanisms for configuring and launching them, so I can't see that this fact reflects any particular kind of deficiency or design weakness in Windows.
This is true enough. It is not a "design" problem, but a corporate/strategic/UI problem.
As it stands, I could launch apache from my bashrc. But it would be stupid and awful and pointless. The difference is that on Linux, doing something that dumb is a WTF, while there are at least 4 "blessed" mechanisms for doing it on Windows.
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@Captain I can't take you seriously when you claim Chrome is a service
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Did you notice how Chrome is listed as a "background process" in your OWN FUCKING SCREENSHOT? Chrome launches a service-like task.
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@Captain Which makes it all the more amazing you claimed Chrome is a service
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@RaceProUK he never claimed that Chrome is a service, he is saying that Chrome runs a service.
You're just saying that "technically" the Chrome service isn't a service, everybody is saying that from a user's POV it doesn't make a difference.
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@MHolt said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
he never claimed that Chrome is a service
You sure?
@Captain said in The state of Ubuntu on Windows:
How does the user stop the Google Chrome service from running?
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Yeah, everybody is sure.
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@Captain Who's denying their own words now? :P
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You are.
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@Captain You sure about that? Because it looks the other way around from here.
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You must be looking in a mirror.
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@Captain Denial on top of denial now? Denialception!
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@flabdablet You know he's only going to see that macro as support of his position, right?
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@Captain Who is this 'he' you speak of?