🔥 I see Korean mercenaries talking to the same restaurant in Utah! Should I go eat 💩?!
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Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?".
They don't have any blackberries in teh Holy Land, do they?
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you don't love someone who has given you all of the universe
then hid behind bullshit and never showed up. Worse, he actively hides anytime you want to find her. Naughty.
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If someone loved you enough to create the whole universe for you
Please provide sources.
you spend 1/168 of the time he's given you in a week to sit and talk with him
Again, please provide sources that he asked me so. Also, how do I talk with him?
You can turn your back on God, but if God created everything, then by rejecting him you are rejecting everything that is good. Which means you are isolating yourself from goodness while surrounded by it. Ever known someone more miserable than at a party where they're the only one not having a good time? Now imagine the party lasts for all eternity.
This is a series of if-s but all this only depends on one single idea: God created all. If he didn't, I wouldn't be turning my back on anyone or anything. - So again, how do you prove that God created all?
P.S.
I'm not an atheist. My point is simply that since neither (any)religion nor science proved the existence or non-existence of God or any kind of deity, let's admit that we simply don't know yet.
Who knows if I'll see the bearded man up there when I'm dead. (and possibly all my ancestors who lived in ancient Korea who knew nothing about this wonderful creator, burning in hell and regretting not having known Jesus who lived near the Mediterranean, a few thousand miles away from the Korean peninsular, I'm not sure exactly how far though)
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This is a series of if-s but all this only depends on one single idea: God created all. If he didn't, I wouldn't be turning my back on anyone or anything. - So again, how do you prove that God created all?
https://youtu.be/yEKDYIYMgBc
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I'm not one to untie evolution and creation.
It's possible that competition wasn't necessary until the curse of sin.
Therefore, before sin the snake didn't bite, and the wasp didn't sting.
The end times depict a lion laying down with a lamb.
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Please provide sources.
"Let's make man in our image, so that he can rule over creation."
Again, please provide sources that he asked me so. Also, how do I talk with him?
That's how creation was when it started. Humanity like babies talking with God in a forest, with no concerns for the preservation of their lives.
let's admit that we simply don't know yet.
Fair enough.
possibly all my ancestors who lived in ancient Korea who knew nothing about this wonderful creator, burning in hell and regretting not having known Jesus who lived near the Mediterranean, a few thousand miles away from the Korean peninsular, I'm not sure exactly how far though
If the principle is whether you would turn your back on God, I don't think that knowledge of Christ's life, specifically, is necessary.
I'm not the only one either. C.S. Lewis (Narnia) has some interesting and liberal thoughts on who makes it into heaven. There is support for that in the Bible. And the Bible does mention that people without Jewish knowledge of God can learn of Him from nature.
Therefore, it's not a stretch of the imagination that there are people groups that worship a god, in history, that will be in Heaven.
I've read of stories of missionaries that have to put into native's terms the story of God/Jesus, and natives responding with knowledge of Him, where it would otherwise be improbable that they had any exposure.
Pretty much every name of God is a title, based on the qualities of the relationship that the author had with God. So a bushman that worships a god with their own title, could also be justified.
When Ishmael's mother left Abraham, the Bible says that God was with the son, because of the promise God made to Abraham that his son would be a nation, God honored that promise for Ishmael as well. Even though he wasn't God's elect nation for the purpose of representing God to the world.
So there is enough evidence in the Bible to make it possible for people external to the Jews having co-discovered God in their own way and experiences.
Also, God speaks to people other than Abraham, and they recognize God.
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I've read of stories of missionaries that have to put into native's terms the story of God/Jesus, and natives responding with knowledge of Him, where it would otherwise be improbable that they had any exposure.
How do you know their response is "knowledge of Him"?
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How do you know their response is "knowledge of Him"?
They agreed with his qualities as a god of saving grace.
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@Ascendant said:
How do you know their response is "knowledge of Him"?
They agreed with his qualities as a god of saving grace.
How do you rule out the possibility of coincidence?
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I sincerely hope you're trolling.
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If God exists, then he could not care.
If someone on the other side of the world in 200 BC thinks there is a god of creation and worships him, why would God reject that?
It goes back to...
we simply don't know
Which is why it is very important that the Bible says that grace saves.
Grace gives room for failure and misinterpretation.
Luke 9
…49 John answered and said, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us." 50 But Jesus said to him, "Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you."Mark9 9
38 John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us." 39 But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me.…
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If God exists, then he could not care.
If someone on the other side of the world in 200 BC thinks there is a god of creation and worships him, why would God reject that?
I'm sorry but I don't think that answered my question.
The Christians describe God as the creator of the universe. There is a good chance any other random deity being described as the creator of the universe(and there are plenty as far as I know).
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The Christians describe God as the creator of the universe. There is a good chance any other random deity being described as the creator of the universe(and there are plenty as far as I know).
And I'm saying that if anyone has a concept of a God that created the universe, and worships Him in Spirit and Truth, and seeks after Him, will find Him.
That's in the scripture.
So, it is possible for someone without Jewish knowledge of God to be seeking after God, and therefore possible for people to enter Heaven with few details of God's history and nature.
Look at Daniel and God's interaction with Nebuchadnezzar, God doesn't penalize Neb for not understanding that God is a monotheism.
To Neb, first God is the God of dreams, then the God that saves, then the Most High God. When Neb gets prideful enough to think that he is in control of the land, God makes him crazy for 7 years to instill humility. God relates to Neb as a child that he is disciplining, not an evil man to be stamped out. Neb still believes there are other gods, but he puts God first.
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And I'm saying that if anyone has a concept of a God that created the universe, and worships Him in Spirit and Truth, and seeks after Him, will find Him.
That's in the scripture.
So, it is possible for someone without Jewish knowledge of God to be seeking after God, and therefore possible for people to enter Heaven with few details of God's history and nature.
Those random deities might not be referring to God but its own deity and they might have other deities too. So their(pagans) belief system might not be monotheism. The list of details that go against the Doctrine can go on.
As for the old Korean shamanism, they sure had all sorts of different deities, spirits, and ghosts.
So that's what you said about the pagans.
Then do Muslims go to heaven too, especially they specifically believe in the same God?To Neb, first God is the God of dreams, then the God that saves, then the Most High God. When Neb gets prideful enough to think that he is in control of the land, God makes him crazy for 7 years to instill humility. God relates to Neb as a child that he is disciplining, not an evil man to be stamped out. Neb still believes there are other gods, but he puts God first.
Do you believe this to be an actual event that took place?
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So their(pagans) belief system might not be monotheism
I edited that into my previous post.
Nebuchadnezzar interacted with God under the assumption of polytheism, and God still honored his faith.
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Nebuchadnezzar interacted with God under the assumption of polytheism, and God still honored his faith.
Then it becomes rather silly if he would burn me in hell just because I refused to follow the Pope even though I have worshiped him for decades through my paganism, since I have the Jewish knowledge yet refuse to go to church.
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Do you believe this to be an actual event that took place?
I remember reading that in Babylon's history records, there is a 7 year gap in their being ruled by a king. After that gap, a man returns back under a different name, and is sidelined for his insistence on his spiritual beliefs.
It's not clear evidence, but it makes sense that people would want to hide the fact that their king went crazy and came back talking about a Most High God that is more important than the other gods.
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I remember reading that in Babylon's history records, there is a 7 year gap in their being ruled by a king. After that gap, a man returns back under a different name, and is sidelined for his insistence on his spiritual beliefs.
It's not clear evidence, but it makes sense that people would want to hide the fact that their king went crazy and came back talking about a Most High God that is more important than the other gods.
No. The point here is whether that gap was created by God or an actual physical disease or anything else.
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Then it becomes rather silly if he would burn me in hell just because I refused to follow the Pope even though I have worshiped him for decades through my paganism, since I have the Jewish knowledge yet refuse to go to church.
Hell is a place that was designed to punish Satan. God doesn't extend the same grace to angels, for reasons unknown.
God reluctantly places humans in hell.
I personally believe that, in a way, humans place themselves in hell because they are so disdainful of God that they want nothing to do with him and would rather be tortured.
C.S. Lewis has a book about that as well, where he describes a hypothetical bus that allows people in hell to travel to heaven, and the people choose to return to hell.
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The Christians describe God as the creator of the universe. There is a good chance any other random deity being described as the creator of the universe(and there are plenty as far as I know).
Yes.
Honestly, when debating religious people you need to at least differentiate between 2 types of arguments:
- Arguments from scripture: if you ask them why they believe/do something, it is customary for them to answer with bible quotation, because it's obvious to them that this is god's word. Any "citation needed" comment is stupid, because for them this is enough of a citation.
- Arguments against faith: arguments against faith are those that present problems that religion has with the real, existing world and how we know it works. Those are arguments where "God said so" won't suffice but might be presented and this is the place for you to point them out and counter them.
You're making another mistake: argument from comparison of different faiths. This won't work. Religious people don't care about what other people believe. Why would they? It's them who know better and they're sure of it.
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No. The point here is whether that gap was created by God or an actual physical disease or anything else.
God is supernatural. But any interaction with nature from God would become natural, otherwise it would fail to be realized in our reality / fail to be perceived.
Therefore, the two are indistinguishable by anyone who lacks faith.
God could show up in the sky right now, and people would be saying God is a sufficiently advanced alien (and probably try to nuke him too).
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just wanted to add: it's important to determine at the beginning what is your goal in the discussion. Do you want to learn what other people believe and why, or do you want to debate them. Combining the two can yield wierd and unwanted results.
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It's them who know better and they're sure of it.
Kind of, except I'm not arrogant enough to think I understand everything about God.
I have to go under the assumption that God's word is true, or there's no point.
What do I do about competing books?
In the end I have to admit that I simply don't know, and then rely on grace to sort it out.
If there is a God that faults me for this, then it really doesn't matter anyway. Ultimately a God that insists on punishing me with hell isn't going to be stopped with my protests. It's pointless to make rational arguments from within hell.
God's grace and his sovereignty interact in ways you can't really predict.
tl;dr I never insist that I know, that's where you get caught in interpretation traps that creates misconceived doctrine.
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@lucÂas said:
I didn't know that the almighty was concerned about taxation.
@luÂcas said:
Won't argue me because it won't make you look nice, Utter fucking wimp. LOSER!!!
Has someone been giving Lucas alcohol again. Oh - look - some CSS id's....
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God willed it. I guess.
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German church tax.
Now this sounds more like a state established religion, and violation of separation of church and state, than some kid caught praying in front of other kids in a public school.
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To quote Lee Child's Reacher:
We’re all atheists. You don’t believe in Zeus or Thor or Neptune or Augustus Caesar or Mars or Venus or Sun Ra. You reject a thousand gods. Why should it bother you if someone else rejects a thousand and one?
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@abarker decided he not could deal with some basic criticism and decided he he would block me because he was a fuckign pussy and his shit didn't wash with anyone with any fucking basic question about it.
On my read, he blocked you for sounding off like an immature little prick.
HEY EVERYBODY LOOK AT ME I FOUND OUT THAT WATER IS WET LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME gets old pdq.
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You guys are wrong and I
provided plenty of proofcould find nothing better to do with my day than go neener, neener, neener.If you had half the balls you say you do, you'd go yell at some religious person whose religion was demonstrably influencing them to do more harm than good.
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If there is a God that faults me for this, then it really doesn't matter anyway. Ultimately a God that insists on punishing me with hell isn't going to be stopped with my protests. It's pointless to make rational arguments from within hell.
This (with a few minor tweaks) is basically my argument for apatheism. Essentially, who cares? There's no interesting hypotheses or results to be gained from asking the questions about god(s), and there are no empiric answers. Arguing about faith isn't going to lead anywhere either.
On the other hand, discussing faith with people who have a different one can be interesting (depending a lot on the person you're discussing with, though). Not because of the faith per-se, but more because you can learn a lot about other people.
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Now, here's the thing. You can turn your back on God, but if God created everything, then by rejecting him you are rejecting everything that is good.
Conclusion does not follow from premise.
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I sincerely hope you're trolling.
There's a difference between trolling for the lulz and just being a prick for the sake of being annoying. I know of nothing @abarker has ever done to deserve being subjected to the latter.
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God reluctantly places humans in hell.
"I really hate doing this to you, but I don't make the rules."
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It was about the members paying taxes. Donations to religious organizations are tax-deductible.
There was no income tax back then (1890), though.
I've heard that Mormons were very big on exploiting such tax loopholes.
It's horrible when people follow the law.
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The fact is that everyone is being PC about @abarker's beliefs which are bullshit.
Wait until you find out about their new stance on using element ids in CSS!
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It is quite obvious to me that God doesn't care about your taxes.
Dang. You should hang out with @Fox. He lives his life by the Code of the Obvious, too!
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@lucas said:
The fact is that everyone is being PC about @abarker's beliefs which are bullshit.
Wait until you find out about their new stance on using element ids in CSS!
Are they for or against? Or only on the Sabbath?
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Sabbath
Keep in mind that operating any machine is considered work, so if you're an orthodox jew, you can't check your email on Saturday.
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Even as a literal atheist I do believe gods exist. The gods even have agency as far as I'm concerned because collectives of believers agree on their traits and act accordingly.
For a religious flamewar this thread is pretty lame. @Ascendant didn't do a bad job of providing kindling nurturing it along and @Abarker did throw in a few logs. I welcome the effort but in the end we just don't have enough frothing idiots for this.
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After sundown or all day?
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Except you can't really prove the Earth exists.
You can prove we perceive something, can measure it, and interact with it, but proving something exists, or that we even perceive its true nature is impossible.
Wait...what?
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You can do the right thing reluctantly. It doesn't mean you don't make the rules, it means that you wished for a different outcome.
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@anotherusername said:
It was about the members paying taxes. Donations to religious organizations are tax-deductible.
There was no income tax back then (1890), though.
Sure, but there were property taxes, and the same argument applied: any property donated to the church was owned by the church, and the church was not taxed on it. So the church members could avoid paying any property taxes on their stuff if they officially owned nothing and the church was the official title holder. And actually, since there was no income tax, they also would not be taxed on the income (benefits) they received for being the caretakers of the church's land and property.
It's horrible when people follow the law.
Good, you killed him. One less straw man to worry about.
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This (with a few minor tweaks) is basically my argument for apatheism. Essentially, who cares? There's no interesting hypotheses or results to be gained from asking the questions about god(s), and there are no empiric answers. Arguing about faith isn't going to lead anywhere either.
It's a take it or leave it deal.
I believe because the Bible lines up with my personal experiences.
And trust me, had I not had those experiences, I'd be an atheist too.
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Sure, but there were property taxes, and the same argument applied: any property donated to the church was owned by the church, and the church was not taxed on it. So the church members could avoid paying any property taxes on their stuff if they officially owned nothing and the church was the official title holder. And actually, since there was no income tax, they also would not be taxed on the income (benefits) they received for being the caretakers of the church's land and property.
So you fault them for creating a more successful socialist paradise?
If it belonged to the church, then the church could kick out the original owner at any time. They were giving up their rights of ownership, so there is an exchange there.
You donate your house to the church on the condition that you are allowed to live in it, so you don't have to pay taxes.
Then you do something so terrible that the church kicks you out.
What happens to the house?
Also, you can't give it up to inheritance, the church has to "freely lease" it out to your kids.
You can't sell it, because the church gets the money. They'd have to give you money back, and that becomes tricky in the law.
So, it's not without it's disadvantages.
