Conservapedia: The funniest site in the world
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But let's ask, why do foreigners think the public systems we have are jokes?
In short: because you get worse results for more money.
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Because the US doesn't have state-funded healthcare and what it does have is a joke.
That's not the joke.
Hint: disinterested third party.
This is the joke.
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In short: because you get worse results for more money.
So why is the "obvious" answer to do more of it?
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You tell me. I tend to think it's because you people are nuts.
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It's all a matter of definitions. VA is a special agency for a select (and small) part of the population. Technically it is a form of state-funded healthcare, but it doesn't speak much to the US healthcare system as a whole.
But it does speak to how well our Federal Government currently runs state funded health care. That is, if someone says "Problem X is automatically solved by state funded health care", we can examine the VA. If the problem exists in the VA, then it's not a problem that state funding inherently solves.
That's not to say that a state funded solution might not also solve that problem. It might, in theory, only be solvable with state funding. But state funding doesn't automatically fix it, because we have an example of a state funded solution that still has that problem.
(Apologies for the repetition- I felt that it was better to repeat myself and hopefully be more clear)
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That is, if someone says "Problem X is automatically solved by state funded health care", we can examine the VA.
In fact, you should not. Because all you'll get is:
how well our Federal Government currently runs state funded health care
If your government is pants at running state funded health care, the first thing to do is to look at what everyone else is doing (in Europe, for example) and see why your government is failing at what a lot of other people seem able to figure out.
A more structural problem is that VA is a poor model for a state-wide system of healthcare - which has a funding part and a spending part and both are subject to scale considerations.
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You tell me. I tend to think it's because you people are nuts.
Yes, that's what I'd tell you. You being the people who say we need more of it. Like you.
If your government is pants at running state funded health care, the first thing to do is to look at what everyone else is doing (in Europe, for example) and see why your government is failing at what a lot of other people seem able to figure out.
Your tiny countries aren't terribly good models, for one. Vastly different scales and demographics. I'd rather pursue things that would improve stuff, not make it worse.
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If your government is pants at running state funded health care, the first thing to do is to look at what everyone else is doing (in Europe, for example) and see why your government is failing at what a lot of other people seem able to figure out.
Are you saying that single payer is not the solution- the solution is to actually fix the system?
That's not to say you couldn't also add single payer, either at the same time or as a separate effort. Just that single payer doesn't inherently solve the issue.
Because I think we agree- single payer isn't the solution.
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You seem to think that universal healthcare means that the hospitals themselves will all be staffed by non-medical government workers. You've really bought into the propaganda. Congratulations
Never said that or implied that. What I was getting at with my anecdote is that Canada currently suffers from a shortage of trained medical personnel. This shortage is, apparently, more pronounced in some areas than others. The anecdote that I related pointed this out because there was no room on the MRI schedule for my dad to get an MRI for three months, even when his doctor classified the request as an emergency MRI.
Please stop trying to put words in my mouth.
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They figure out how to pay for medical stuff, too.
by manufacturing methamphetamine!
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I've read anecdotes about people using veterinary clinics for things like MRIs or X-Rays in Canada due to scheduling / budget things. This was several years ago, and I also recall reading about them working to fix that.
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And you still can't get your strawman out of your head?
Strawman? That was an actual series of events that really occurred in my life. I have had to deal with spending way too much time at the doctor's office/hospital over the last 4 years unfortunately.Not sure why I'm doing this, but hey, slow morning.
I don't know either, but it was a very well done post.
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How are you people still pretty much on topic?
On topic??
You seem to be assuming that Universal Healthcare, if implemented in the U.S., would be similar to Canada's implementation.
Well yes, because if there were any system implemented, I would want it similar to Canada's, except we spend more on healthcare than they do, even now, so we could hopefully also spend enough to fix the wait time issue. Canada has high wait times because that is their healthcare limiter. The US's limiter is currently cost rather than wait time.
I am certainly not arguing for the US to do the things the republicans have put out there to scare everyone off, because those really are scary stupid ideas. Those are for the most part just a bunch of fallacies and strawmen to scare people.
Using the VA as an example falls short, because it's specifically set up to service a small group of people. If we are servicing EVERYONE instead, then EVERYONE will demand better service for their tax dollars. The lesson of the VA isn't that the system fails, it's that the majority of Americans just don't give a shit about Veteran's treatment except to say "Awwwww" when shitty stories come out in the media.
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Strawman? That was an actual series of events that really occurred in my life. I have had to deal with spending way too much time at the doctor's office/hospital over the last 4 years unfortunately.
Fucking moron. The strawman that I or anyone else is saying, "Insurance companies are awesome!"
I am certainly not arguing for the US to do the things the republicans have put out there to scare everyone off, because those really are scary stupid ideas.
Like what? "Don't get sick?"
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Fucking moron. The strawman that I or anyone else is saying, "Insurance companies are awesome!"
Then why don't you say that instead of quoting my anecdote about insurance companies screwing me? I can't read your mind you know.
Like what? "Don't get sick?"
i don't even know what you're trying to say here. That the republicans are saying "don't get sick"? No idea.
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But more directly, my whole point is that without the US system, he would not have had the MRI in time (it sounds like) and would have lost the use of the arm, or whatever.
Yep.
You got any hard data? The World Health Organization does and it says that Canadians get better results from their system than we do. Not better value, better results.
This article indicates that the median wait times for Canadian medical procedures are up, and that it is most noticeable for orthopaedic issues, such as my dad had. Or there's this report and this report1 from the Fraser Institute, indicating the same. At least one of those sources indicates that "wealthy" Canadians, and those who can raise or borrow the money are travelling to the US to get their medical care quicker. Of course, the expense is obviously a barrier for many, since they don't have private health insurance.
1This report uses the phrase "elective procedure", yet based on the language in their other reports and across, this would be better stated as "medically necessary elective procedure".
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At least one of those sources indicates that "wealthy" Canadians, and those who can raise or borrow the money are travelling to the US to get their medical care quicker.
I still think that with the amount we spend on healthcare, the profit organizations known as insurance companies can be ditched and we can still achieve the same wait times we currently do. The biggest problem I see is whether it will cause people to stop becoming doctors if the job is not so luxurious. Less doctors = more wait. If we spend the amount needed, we can prevent that though.
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Then why don't you say that instead of quoting my anecdote about insurance companies screwing me? I can't read your mind you know.
Yes, you should read my posts. Where I quoted this bit (plus some):
I just gave you guys your favorite piece of proof, the anecdotal kind, about how the insurance companies are doing the exact same bullshit you think you're trying to save us from.
Though to be fair, it is the sort of thing I'd like to save us from, just not in the way you keep demonstrating illiterate tendencies.
i don't even know what you're trying to say here. That the republicans are saying "don't get sick"? No idea.
First I was asking to what you were referring. Then I quoted a Democrat strawman for teh LULZ.
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Please stop trying to put words in my mouth
That line you quoted wasn't aimed at you, but at Frostcat. Only the first paragraph had anything to do with you, and it was just a contrasting anecdote - nothing to say your opinion or experience was "wrong" because clearly it actually happened.
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The lesson of the VA isn't that the system fails, it's that the majority of Americans just don't give a shit about Veteran's treatment except to say "Awwwww" when shitty stories come out in the media.
That's not a horrible point. It needs to be expanded to include not giving a shit about the poor, the elderly, or the Native Americans- but that's pretty trivial.
Speaking as a Veteran, from a family of Veterans, I actually feel like our society overvalues Veterans a bit. Anecdotal. :-) So we'll just dismiss that.
There's still value in the comparison. If someone says "State funded health care doesn't have this problem", and the VA has it, it's easy to see they are wrong.
Now they might come back and say "I meant, State Funded Universal Health Care- No True Single Payer System has this problem", but it's a start to having a dialogue as to what actually does and does not fix the issues, instead of just automatically assuming single payer or free market will fix the issue.
(I am using Single Payer and State Funded interchangeably here- I don't really see a difference at this level, but if you do, feel free to explain it)
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First I was asking to what you were referring. Then I quoted a Democrat strawman for teh LULZ.
I still have no idea what this is about. Democrats say you can solve healthcare problems by not getting sick? Searching "Don't Get Sick" on google, the only links I see are progressives calling the Republican health plan the "don't get sick" plan. So.... no idea.
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Using the VA as an example falls short, because it's specifically set up to service a small group of people.
Then use medicare or medicaid. Both cover larger groups, and neither one is run any better than the VA insurance.
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I still have no idea what this is about.
This is becoming a trend.
Searching "Don't Get Sick" on google, the only links I see are progressives calling the Republican health plan the "don't get sick" plan.
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Then why don't you say that instead of quoting my anecdote about insurance companies screwing me? I can't read your mind you know.
The only reason you gave that anecdote was to refute the strawman you had erected; namely, that those of us who are against universal health care are for health insurance companies.
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Speaking as a Veteran, from a family of Veterans, I actually feel like our society overvalues Veterans a bit. Anecdotal. So we'll just dismiss that
Yes, in person, fundraising events, etc - everyone loves veterans. And they should. You guys sacrifice a lot to allow the rest of us to live our lives the way to want. But when it comes to us sacrificing from our income to take care of Vets... that's when everyone turns and looks the other way and close their wallets.
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So, @darkmatter, you made a claim about Republican healthcare proposals:
I am certainly not arguing for the US to do the things the republicans have put out there to scare everyone off, because those really are scary stupid ideas. Those are for the most part just a bunch of fallacies and strawmen to scare people.
Which of their proposals are just fallacies and strawmen? Which are scary ideas?
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namely, that those of us who are against universal health care are for health insurance companies
How many times do I have to say it? I DO NOT THINK YOU ARE FOR HEALTH INSURANCE COMPANIES.
What I am pointing out is that government run healthcare ideal as in Canada-like merely replaces/eliminates the insurance companies, which are already a big part of the problem anyway.
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But when it comes to us sacrificing from our income to take care of Vets... that's when everyone turns and looks the other way and close their wallets.
Sometimes. I mean, the real problem is we keep trusting the VA to do what they say they're doing. To wit: there was a problem with wait times. VA says they'll work on that. Reported wait times come down. Turns out, they were simply fudging the numbers and collecting bonuses. Bad incentives lead to bad results.
Lots of people want to change that system. How do we do it? There are problems both procedural and substantive. But then again, when we (and I include Congress in this) can't even find out WTF is going on there, the odds of being able to fix stuff is very low.
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I still think that with the amount we spend on healthcare, the profit organizations known as insurance companies can be ditched and we can still achieve the same wait times we currently do.
I'm not sure what that has to do with the point I was making, or where you're trying to go with this. Generally, the insurance companies have minimal impact on wait times. So of course getting rid of the insurance companies would have minimal impact on US health car wait times.
The US generally has really good wait times, outside the ERs, which are generally overused, and often used for non-emergency issues. My post was about Canadian wait times, and how Canadians come to the US for procedures so they don't have to wait.
Let your insurance company strawman die.
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What I am pointing out is that government run healthcare ideal as in Canada-like merely replaces/eliminates the insurance companies, which are already a big part of the problem anyway.
Out of the frying pan and into the fire! Why make things worse when we don't have to?
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Yes, in person, fundraising events, etc - everyone loves veterans. And they should. You guys sacrifice a lot to allow the rest of us to live our lives the way to want. But when it comes to us sacrificing from our income to take care of Vets... that's when everyone turns and looks the other way and close their wallets.
Hmmm. I don't have any facts and figures to hand, and I might be completely wrong, but I'm not sure I agree.
We spend tons of money on the VA. Yeah, it's mostly wasted- but the money was spent.
I can't turn around without some offering a veterans discount or a free meal or something. I get embarrassed and skip these. I did it because I felt it was what I needed to do, not to get a free entree at some chain restaurant.
Seems like it's a reaction to how the last generation of Vets were treated, and kind of makes me wonder if it's a pendulum-style swing, and we're due to start swinging back over the next generation or so.
Are we off topic enough now?
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Generally, the insurance companies have minimal impact on wait times. So of course getting rid of the insurance companies would have minimal impact on US health car wait times.
Except the example I gave earlier where in my real life where I was delayed important medical treatments for over a month because of having to wait for insurance claims.
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That line you quoted wasn't aimed at you, but at Frostcat. Only the first paragraph had anything to do with you, and it was just a contrasting anecdote - nothing to say your opinion or experience was "wrong" because clearly it actually happened.
How the hell was I supposed to know that? Your post was only a reply to me, with no quotes or mentions. Seems like it was all aimed at me. Here's a tip: if you want to aim a particular bit at someone while replying to someone else, either mention or quote target before talking to them.
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Let your insurance company strawman die.
A good place to start would be to get health insurance back to being actual insurance instead of a payment plan.
Having a heart attack and requiring a lot of expensive medical care is a great application of insurance. Getting no copay birth control pills every month is not.
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Your post was only a reply to me, with no quotes or mentions. Seems like it was all aimed at me. Here's a tip: if you want to aim a particular bit at someone while replying to someone else, either mention or quote target before talking to them.
Uh read it? It specifically says "AS FOR FROSTCAT".
THank dicsourse for me not being able to make it a reply to 2 people in the "reply to" piece.
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Which of their proposals are just fallacies and strawmen? Which are scary ideas?
How about the death lists bullshit, where they say we'll just let people die because it's expensive.
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How about the death lists bullshit, where they say we'll just let people die because it's expensive.
What about it? The VA has already tried it out. What do you think the point of IPAB is?
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But even if you disagree, that's a Republican criticism of reforms, not an example of a Republican proposal.
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What do you think the point of IPAB is?
And this is different from the existing Insurance Company version how?
How does it change healthcare to make more people die due to expense?
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Except the example I gave earlier where in my real life where I was delayed important medical treatments for over a month because of having to wait for insurance claims.
Yes. One example. I said "generally". Got any facts or figures to back up that anecdote?
Also, did you have to delay? No. You could have found other ways to cover the costs while you waited for your insurance to get things sorted out. So that wait time was as much your choice as it was your insurance company's fault.
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that's a Republican criticism of reforms, not an example of a Republican proposal.
Republicans have made no proposals, I have been specifically talking about republican strawmen regarding the universal healthcare proposal... sorry if that's too complex for you to figure out, I've only said it what, a dozen times.
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And this is different from the existing Insurance Company version how?
How does it change healthcare to make more people die due to expense?The point is that the government is mandating something by law and there isn't an alternative. People complain about how they can't change the government, but then they want it making more life and death decisions.
There may not be lots of other great options with a private option (hey, some shit really is just too expensive or whatever) but it's a different ballgame than Big Brother. I guess we can agree to disagree about this, the way @blakeyrat is very concerned about extX allowed characters in file names and I'm not.
But you asked what the big deal was, and there it is.
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Also, did you have to delay? No. You could have found other ways to cover the costs while you waited for your insurance to get things sorted out. So that wait time was as much your choice as it was your insurance company's fault.
Yes, I could have paid the $4,000 up front and been out 4 grand, especially if the insurance company had denied the claim. Because then I'd either be stuck paying $45,000 for the full year, or I'd have to switch to a different $40,000+/year medication and pray the insurance company would re-imburse me on that one. What a great solution.
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The point is that the government is mandating something by law and there isn't an alternative
And I am against the current mandate, because it is retardedly stupid. I have said that about a dozen times too in various topics here.
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Republicans have made no proposals
I don't think you meant what you actually said. Google shows lots of proposals, including a White House posting on Republican Proposals the President used to help shape his proposal.
One key item the Republicans proposed was the Voucher system- That is, the Government sends people checks, and they purchase health insurance with them.
Instead, we used a refund system- People buy insurance, and get a larger tax refund.
Now, you can say their proposals suck- Maybe the checks they wanted to send out weren't big enough? More often, the formula they used to calculate how much bigger the checks would get over the years was criticized - that it wouldn't keep pace with prices.
But to say they didn't make any proposals is, again, easy to disprove.
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In your country, maybe, but in the big picture you are right wing vs. right wing and nothing will ever change that.
Hell, even in over here in communist europistan, politics is generally moving to right-wing vs right-wing, and even the "socialist" parties over here who are still somewhat left wing are drifting to the right (or, in the case of France's Hollande / Valls government, swerving). It's mostly not quite as right wing as American politics, but still on the right wing side of the graph.
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Republicans have made no proposals
Oh FFS, are you competing with @aapis for the most ignorant poster badge?
I have been specifically talking about republican strawmen regarding the universal healthcare proposal... sorry if that's too complex for you to figure out, I've only said it what, a dozen times.
OK, so we'll chalk this up to poor communication skills on your part:
I am certainly not arguing for the US to do the things the republicans have put out there to scare everyone off, because those really are scary stupid ideas.
That certainly sounds like proposals to me, but I can see how the confusion arose. I suspect you're mostly wrong about that stuff, too (as already demonstrated with your first example).
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And I am against the current mandate, because it is retardedly stupid. I have said that about a dozen times too in various topics here.
I understand that.
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But to say they didn't make any proposals is, again, easy to disprove.
Sorry, it was a bit of hyperbole. Again, I thought I had been pretty clear that I'm only arguing about the stupid strawmen Republicans have been building to make universal healthcare look like some scary impossible thing. Maybe it's because where I live, there are too many morons watching FOX News at restaurants and I get inundated with stupidity.
Some Republicans have actually been pushing universal healthcare reforms of their own. I applaud them for it.
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OK, so we'll chalk this up to poor communication skills on your part:
So when you're too stupid to understand something, it's my fault. But when you say something TDEMSYR, it's also my fault? Got it.
This is just stupid, I think I'm done. No matter what I say you will just grab a small piece that can be refuted out of context and throw more bullshit at it.
