"Agile" is a thing, right?
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@eViLegion said:
@bardofspoons42 said:
@eViLegion said:
@bardofspoons42 said:
Maybe I should play Eve Online and be more productive...
Go and can-bait some noobs in a starter system... you know you want to.
I'm one of those noobs! I just started playing a few weeks back. I haven't even gotten close to nullsec
Are you called bard of spoons in game?
This could be my excuse to renew subscriptions, andhunt you downgive you loads of expensive free stuff.
If I recall correctly, I had amassed about fortythousand gallons of sweet sweet tearsbillion in assets at last count.
Also, fuck nullsec. The profits were in wormhole systems... its just a bit dangerous in the wormhole areas, becausecunts like mesome nasty people will take all of your stuff andfuck your skulltry to make you cry afterwards.
I wouldn't mind giving it a try, except it seems like it would take a significant time investment to get anywhere at all - same problem with all MMOs. I was a severe EverQuest junkie as a teenager.
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@joe.edwards said:
it seems like it would take a significant time investment to get anywhere at all - same problem with all MMOs. I was a severe EverQuest junkie as a teenager.
Basically this. Its a lot to learn, and even when you've learned it, it takes a LOT of time to put it into practice.
I used to mainly operate with RL friends (you NEED to find a trustworthy group of people to have your back), and we would mostly wander round the high-security systems looking for war targets to gank. It can take a LONG time to get a fight, however, as typically war targets are total pussies who'll do anything to avoid being shot at. So, you have to have a second account, with an un-affiliated character in a covert ops ship, scouting ahead 1 or 2 jumps, so that the targets don't see you before you see them. After stalking them, maybe for a couple of hours, and waiting for them to do something unwise, you might get a fight that lasts a couple of minutes at the most.
So, whilst there is not necessarily a huge amount of action, what action you DO get is incredibly intense... you're either desperately clicking in order to shut down an escaping target before they jump or warp... or you're desperately clicking to try and save yourself (owing to having accidentally bitten off slightly more than you can chew). The ship you risk losing could have taken you months of real time to earn, so the adrenaline hit is orders of magnitude more fierce than any other game I've ever played. I've finished fights unable to stand up for 5 minutes because I'm shaking from the adrenaline so much.
But yeah... its a serious investment of time, which is why I don't do it any more!
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@bardofspoons42 said:
I'm one of those noobs! I just started playing a few weeks back. I haven't even gotten close to nullsec
How many weeks does it take to realize everybody playing EVE is a dick?
Although I think the Player Average Dickness value of EVE might have been exceeded by DOTA2.
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@blakeyrat said:
How many weeks does it take to realize everybody playing EVE is a dick?
Well, that should have been made clear before anyone pays for a subscription... I mean, it's been designed into the game. The fans consider it to be a unique selling point.
If you're more than a month in and you haven't noticed, then you're probably doing it wrong.
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@bardofspoons42 said:
"An administrator should be able to add new users"
If an administrator can't add new users, you might want to review his training plan.
@bardofspoons42 said:
"As a user, I should be able to search customers"
I could agree that searching customers should be something a user should be able to do - if the user is a TSA employee perhaps.
By the way - I do agree that those statements are the start of a requirements document. If you stop at those statments without developing formal requirements though, you're asking for a world of scope creep and missed expectations. (This assumes, of course, the project is large enough to warrant formal requirements. If it's not a formal project, then, eh, whatever.)
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@eViLegion said:
@blakeyrat said:
How many weeks does it take to realize everybody playing EVE is a dick?
Well, that should have been made clear before anyone pays for a subscription... I mean, it's been designed into the game. The fans consider it to be a unique selling point.
If you're more than a month in and you haven't noticed, then you're probably doing it wrong.
Some of the heists sound intriguing.
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@eViLegion said:
But yeah... its a serious investment of time, which is why I don't do it any more!
Today was the first time I left Verge Vendor, and that was to start the Sisters of Eve Epic Arc. It's been mainly waiting today going from gate to gate. I avoided this game for the longest time, since I grew up with the Wing Commander games, and I had a feeling if I started playing this I would get hooked. So far it's only been a minor addiction, a few hours per day in the evening.
I have a feeling it'll be awhile before I join any player corporation, or do anything beyond missions from agents
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@joe.edwards said:
Some of the heists sound intriguing.
What pushed me to finally try it was finding out about stuff like that. Specifically, when I read about the whole Band of Brothers/Goonswarm thing, along with how hands off CCP seems to be with the players.
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@bardofspoons42 said:
@eViLegion said:
But yeah... its a serious investment of time, which is why I don't do it any more!
Today was the first time I left Verge Vendor, and that was to start the Sisters of Eve Epic Arc. It's been mainly waiting today going from gate to gate. I avoided this game for the longest time, since I grew up with the Wing Commander games, and I had a feeling if I started playing this I would get hooked. So far it's only been a minor addiction, a few hours per day in the evening.
I have a feeling it'll be awhile before I join any player corporation, or do anything beyond missions from agents
Watch out for player corporations with a tax rate.
Some corps will tax you some percentage of your earnings, but it's sometimes a bit of a scam... I mean, there ARE some corps which will give you value for money... they'll protect you, organise operations together, and help each other out. But some others are just noob-farming, to get some free cash trickling in.@bardofspoons42 said:
@joe.edwards said:
Some of the heists sound intriguing.
What pushed me to finally try it was finding out about stuff like that. Specifically, when I read about the whole Band of Brothers/Goonswarm thing, along with how hands off CCP seems to be with the players.
Yeah... the goons can be funny. On an individual basis, most of them are rubbish and not to be feared. But the swarm.... terrifying. Once upon a time, if their guns didn't kill you, the lag they generated did!
Scamming is a god way of making cash. My first billion was because someone made a very stupid mistake:
I was selling some cheap ammo at a low price, like 1isk per unit.
Some guy was obviously trying to launder his real-money-traded-ISK to another account, by creating a buy order for 1 unit of the same ammo, at 1billion per unit, ready for his other account to then fill with a sell-order.
He obviously didn't bother checking that anyone else was selling already.
Market system matched my sell order of 1isk per unit, to his buy order of 1billion isk per unit, and the deal was done.
Whoops. Way to scam yourself.
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Eve sound like a very realistic game.
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Then you need to do retrospectives. A retrospective should address fairly quickly the length of your standup; and probably identify which of the areas you "don't have" that you'd like to have. There you go, two work items to have fixed by the end of the next iteration (you do have iterations, and they're short, right?)
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So, the GMs won't step in to arbitrate, but isn't there some in-game lawman, or at least some opportunity for PVP retaliation? It seems like a horde of jilted/scammed customers could enact some kind of revenge.
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@eViLegion said:
Some guy was obviously trying to launder his real-money-traded-ISK to another account, by creating a buy order for 1 unit of the same ammo, at 1billion per unit, ready for his other account to then fill with a sell-order.
He obviously didn't bother checking that anyone else was selling already.
Market system matched my sell order of 1isk per unit, to his buy order of 1billion isk per unit, and the deal was done.I call bullshit. Every other game I've seen takes the first price, not the last.
Sources: RuneScape, Spiral Knights, World of Warcraft
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@Ben L. said:
@eViLegion said:
He's saying you pay what you bid no matter what the asking price (presumably not shown, like Ebay reserve price). So he was selling for 1 ISK and the guy was buying for 1B ISK. 1B ISK buying price met and exceeded the 1 ISK asking price, sold!Some guy was obviously trying to launder his real-money-traded-ISK to another account, by creating a buy order for 1 unit of the same ammo, at 1billion per unit, ready for his other account to then fill with a sell-order.
He obviously didn't bother checking that anyone else was selling already.
Market system matched my sell order of 1isk per unit, to his buy order of 1billion isk per unit, and the deal was done.I call bullshit. Every other game I've seen takes the first price, not the last.
Sources: RuneScape, Spiral Knights, World of Warcraft
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@dhromed said:
When you combine all these stories into paragraphs, what do you get? A huge spec of the waterfall variety. If your monolithic waterfall spec talks about implementations and algorithms, you fucked up, and no amount of scrum is going to fix that. Goddamn!
That's the point though, the stories aren't combined. The client (or project manager) can understand them and choose to do them done in any order. That's the whole reason they call it "agile". Not because you development is faster, but because you can do course corrections without having to rewrite an entire spec. It means that if something urgent comes up, your workflow can handle it by just moving those stories to an earlier iteration.
Also, bugs are blocking. You're supposed to not start any new stories until a bug is fixed. The reason for this is that delays due to bugs are factored into the calculation of velocity for future iterations. That's why they call it velocity, it lets you know far you can realistically go in the next 3 iterations as long as people don't try to pull double duty. Velocity also is affected by someone being away on vacation or sick. And applications like Pivotal can actually factor that into projections.
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@joe.edwards said:
@Ben L. said:
@eViLegion said:
He's saying you pay what you bid no matter what the asking price (presumably not shown, like Ebay reserve price). So he was selling for 1 ISK and the guy was buying for 1B ISK. 1B ISK buying price met and exceeded the 1 ISK asking price, sold!Some guy was obviously trying to launder his real-money-traded-ISK to another account, by creating a buy order for 1 unit of the same ammo, at 1billion per unit, ready for his other account to then fill with a sell-order.
He obviously didn't bother checking that anyone else was selling already.
Market system matched my sell order of 1isk per unit, to his buy order of 1billion isk per unit, and the deal was done.I call bullshit. Every other game I've seen takes the first price, not the last.
Sources: RuneScape, Spiral Knights, World of Warcraft
What's the maximum ISK, so I have a reference point?
RuneScape uses a signed 32-bit integer to store money*, but you can have 11 different piles of it (6 slots on the auction house*, one each on inventory, bank, money pouch, and two kinds of treasure chest). In RuneScape, 72 coins can get you enough magical power* to cast the strongest air-based magical spell in the game.
Spiral Knights money* is bought with real world currencies, so I don't think anyone has hit the limit yet. In Spiral Knights, 10 energy allows you to enter a single level of gameplay*.
World of Warcraft money* is capped at 1000000 00 00. In World of Warcraft, 1 00 00 coins can buy a rideable horse.
*terms generified to avoid confusion
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@too_many_usernames said:
By the way - I do agree that those statements are the start of a requirements document. If you stop at those statments without developing formal requirements though, you're asking for a world of scope creep and missed expectations.
Wait a minute, let's not rush into creating a formal requirement document without preparation! First we must create a task force that will put together a proposal for an official taxonomy, then submit it to a non-steering committee that will circle back with all the relevant stakeholders. Once an informal conclusion has been reached and non-critical issues have been parked and duly documented, the approach must be presented at the Business Architecture Table where the alignment with core processes will be assessed, at which point an entry will be posted to the System of Records for future reference. Following that major milestone, a series of consensus-building communication activities will take place to lay the groundwork for an effective collaboration between business units, at which point the communication facilitators in the BA team will start beating the path to ensure a frictionless flow of information between the SME's and the implementation groups. THEN it may become possible to start thinking about creating a document, as long as a clear RACI chart is available.
Of course this approach is less formal than having a real SCRUM with a well-defined product backlog but at the end of the day what truly matters is having a fucking document.
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@too_many_usernames said:
By the way - I do agree that those statements are the start of a requirements document. If you stop at those statments without developing formal requirements though, you're asking for a world of scope creep and missed expectations. (This assumes, of course, the project is large enough to warrant formal requirements. If it's not a formal project, then, eh, whatever.)
The client can see quite clearly what their impact is on future iterations if they add new items. When they see they'll need an extra 2 iterations to add their fluff feature, they'll either decide to reorganize the upcoming iterations by removing less critical stories, put said feature back in the "icebox" or back "on ice", or suck it up and pay for the additional time that will be spent. Like I said before, agile is like weight watchers for development; It doesn't let them over demand, and it doesn't let you over promise. The expectations are laid out exactly as they need to be at any point in time in those iterations.
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@boomzilla said:
@The_Assimilator said:
Jira is better than no bugtracker in the same way that becoming a quadriplegic is better than dying.
Hang on. Aren't you the guy who said Jira was super slow for him?
No, I'm the guy who said Jira is a slow-ass, buggy, unusable piece of shit regardless of which browser you use.
@Ben L. said:
What's the maximum ISK, so I have a reference point?
Hundreds of trillions. A billion ISK is chump change.
I used to play EVE, but I quit because CCP's attitude of "let the players generate the content while we sit back and collect subscription fees" doesn't mesh with my attitude of "if I'm paying money for it, there'd better be decent PVE content". Also the PVPers whining about "risk vs reward being biased in favour of hisec" eventually got under my skin. Tell me again how low-value hisec sites, with a constant risk of ganking, are more lucrative than the deadspace sites deep within alliance-held space that you farm with no risk of ganking, and I'll tell you you're full of shit.
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@The_Assimilator said:
@boomzilla said:
@The_Assimilator said:
Jira is better than no bugtracker in the same way that becoming a quadriplegic is better than dying.
Hang on. Aren't you the guy who said Jira was super slow for him?
No, I'm the guy who said Jira is a slow-ass, buggy, unusable piece of shit regardless of which browser you use.Oh. Right. You're the Guy That's Wrong. Carry on.
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@The_Assimilator said:
Hundreds of trillions. A billion ISK is chump change.
Hyperinflation seems to be a challenging problem in MMOs, particularly because money doesn't really circulate. More money just poofs into existence, and seldom poofs back out of existence (kind of like the Fed amirite?). When I started EQ, it took all day to scrounge up a platinum, by the time I quit people were tossing around tens of thousands of them.
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@joe.edwards said:
He's saying you pay what you bid no matter what the asking price (presumably not shown, like Ebay reserve price). So he was selling for 1 ISK and the guy was buying for 1B ISK. 1B ISK buying price met and exceeded the 1 ISK asking price, sold!
Exactly this. I was confused as hell when I logged in and saw it... trying to figure out exactly how it happened. The market logs showed a single transaction from the guy, for one light missile, at 1 bil isk. I also had an eve-mail from him, asking "I don't suppose you're going to give that back now, are you?". I'm pretty sure I just copy and pasted as much"HAHAHAH" as I could as my reply. I possibly followed that up to tell him about a special deal, where I'd happily sell him more at half the previous price.
@Ben L. said:
What's the maximum ISK, so I have a reference point?
RuneScape uses a signed 32-bit integer to store money*, but you can have 11 different piles of it (6 slots on the auction house*, one each on inventory, bank, money pouch, and two kinds of treasure chest). In RuneScape, 72 coins can get you enough magical power* to cast the strongest air-based magical spell in the game.
Spiral Knights money* is bought with real world currencies, so I don't think anyone has hit the limit yet. In Spiral Knights, 10 energy allows you to enter a single level of gameplay*.
World of Warcraft money* is capped at 1000000 00 00. In World of Warcraft, 1 00 00 coins can buy a rideable horse.
*terms generified to avoid confusion
No idea what the maximum cash is in Eve, or if there even is one. Even if you hit it, you could just transfer it all into the wallet of some holding-corporation, and start earning again from zero.
But to give you an idea how much value isk has in real terms: [url=http://www.eve-markets.net/detail.php?typeid=29668]http://www.eve-markets.net/detail.php?typeid=29668[/url]
That site has current data on how much 30 days of game play time costs in in game currency.
So 1 billion would buy you 2 months for a single account.
The cheapest ships (Tech1, Tier1 Frigates) cost around 10,000isk. The most expensive ships (Titans) would be between 50 and 100 billion... but they don't really cost money exactly, they cost lots of time and effort on the part of a large alliances. Both can be lost in seconds.
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@joe.edwards said:
@The_Assimilator said:
Hundreds of trillions. A billion ISK is chump change.
Hyperinflation seems to be a challenging problem in MMOs, particularly because money doesn't really circulate. More money just poofs into existence, and seldom poofs back out of existence (kind of like the Fed amirite?). When I started EQ, it took all day to scrounge up a platinum, by the time I quit people were tossing around tens of thousands of them.Eve has a full time economist working for them, calculating statistics for the game (much like a governments chief economist produces reports for a nation). It amuses me that CCP (the vikings that make Eve) is based in Iceland, which means that Eve has a greater population than the country it comes from. Since Icelands banking sector went tits-up, Eve is now its second major export, after fish.
Anyway... if economic values are going up, or down, they try to introduce mechanics to cope. [url=http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q4-2010.pdf]Here's one of the quarterly reports from 2010[/url].
Eves isk-faucets and isk-sinks are reasonably well balanced, as are its stuff-faucets and stuff-sinks.
Also, yes, money does accumulate in people accounts, but if its just sat there it doesn't affect prices. It only does anything when someone spends it. So, the turnover of players kinda helps this... a lot of money "leaves the game" by simply being in inactive accounts. It's still technically in the game, but doesn't cause inflation.
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@joe.edwards said:
Hyperinflation seems to be a challenging problem in MMOs, particularly because money doesn't really circulate. More money just poofs into existence, and seldom poofs back out of existence (kind of like the Fed amirite?). When I started EQ, it took all day to scrounge up a platinum, by the time I quit people were tossing around tens of thousands of them.
EQ existed pre-moneysinks. Newer MMOs have moneysinks specifically to prevent that.
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@The_Assimilator said:
I'm the guy who said Jira is a slow-ass, buggy, unusable piece of shit regardless of which browser you use.
You spelled "JRE" wrong
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@blakeyrat said:
EQ existed pre-moneysinks. Newer MMOs have moneysinks specifically to prevent that.
I guess I have been out of the loop for a while. How do newer MMOs mitigate inflation? I'm not sure exactly what you mean by moneysinks.
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@joe.edwards said:
@blakeyrat said:
EQ existed pre-moneysinks. Newer MMOs have moneysinks specifically to prevent that.
I guess I have been out of the loop for a while. How do newer MMOs mitigate inflation? I'm not sure exactly what you mean by moneysinks.
Something that removes currency from the game. Sources vs sinks, right?
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@boomzilla said:
@joe.edwards said:
@blakeyrat said:
EQ existed pre-moneysinks. Newer MMOs have moneysinks specifically to prevent that.
I guess I have been out of the loop for a while. How do newer MMOs mitigate inflation? I'm not sure exactly what you mean by moneysinks.
Something that removes currency from the game. Sources vs sinks, right?
Well, derp, but short of robbing players bank accounts, what do they specifically do? It's not like characters need food/clothes/shelter or pay taxes.
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@joe.edwards said:
@blakeyrat said:
EQ existed pre-moneysinks. Newer MMOs have moneysinks specifically to prevent that.
I guess I have been out of the loop for a while. How do newer MMOs mitigate inflation? I'm not sure exactly what you mean by moneysinks.
Wikipedia calls it a Gold Sink for some reason.
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@joe.edwards said:
Well, derp, but short of robbing players bank accounts, what do they specifically do? It's not like characters need food/clothes/shelter or pay taxes.
Tons of stuff. Travel costs, (think the Guild Wars 2 fee to travel to a waypoint), respec cost (pay a couple gold to reset your WOW perks), buying custom equipment, equipment repairs.
The trick is to balance the sinks with the sources, so the currency doesn't fluctuate in a crazy way. Usually this means making the sinks keep pace with the player's earnings potential, for example, if you're level 1 in Guild Wars 2, you're paying maybe 11 cents to go to a waypoint, but if you're level 60 you're paying a ton more. The first WOW respec costs (IIRC) 1 gold, then next 5 gold, then 10 gold, etc. Tier 1 tanks in World of Tanks costs a few thousand, Tier 8 tanks cost hundreds of thousands. Etc.
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@Ronald said:
@The_Assimilator said:
What do you think Jira's implemented on top of? Complaining about one lets you gripe about the other at the same time…I'm the guy who said Jira is a slow-ass, buggy, unusable piece of shit regardless of which browser you use.
You spelled "JRE" wrong
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@boomzilla said:
@The_Assimilator said:
@boomzilla said:
@The_Assimilator said:
Jira is better than no bugtracker in the same way that becoming a quadriplegic is better than dying.
Hang on. Aren't you the guy who said Jira was super slow for him?
No, I'm the guy who said Jira is a slow-ass, buggy, unusable piece of shit regardless of which browser you use.Oh. Right. You're the Guy That's Wrong. Carry on.
JIRA can be pretty slow. If not in simple response time, then in the amount of time you spend having to slog through different screens to do simple, and often repetitive tasks. I often have to keep two tabs open while working in Greenhopper so that I can look at other stories I need to make references to by issue number. I also have to make sure to use the full blown issue editor any time I need to update anything because the quick editor modal view sets the issue to resolved and there's no way to un-resolve them. Apparently it's common and has to do with the default workflows JIRA sets up; Something I don't have privileges to modify.
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@Soviut said:
JIRA can be pretty slow. If not in simple response time, then in the amount of time you spend having to slog through different screens to do simple, and often repetitive tasks. I often have to keep two tabs open while working in Greenhopper so that I can look at other stories I need to make references to by issue number. I also have to make sure to use the full blown issue editor any time I need to update anything because the quick editor modal view sets the issue to resolved and there's no way to un-resolve them. Apparently it's common and has to do with the default workflows JIRA sets up; Something I don't have privileges to modify.
I'm not a Jira administrator, but our workflow is set so that we can unresolve something. But if you mark something's resolution as "fixed" there's no way to undo that. I don't know if that's a configuration thing or what, but it's annoying. Maybe that's what you're talking about, though I tend to go into an issue to edit anyways, so that isn't a bother to me.
I'm not sure I understand the complaint about using two tabs. I tend to have several open at any given time, so using one to search or reference while editing something else seems reasonable to me. When I do that, I usually detach the tab so I don't have to switch to see what's going on in the other. I guess you could have the searching going on in some part of whatever page you have opened? Not sure what you're thinking would be a better way of doing it, but my first thought is that it would probably suck, and I'd be happier having a "normal" search page in a separate tab/window than lots of stuff crammed together in one place, but I just may not be thinking of some better way.
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@boomzilla said:
But if you mark something's resolution as "fixed" there's no way to undo that. I don't know if that's a configuration thing or what, but it's annoying. Maybe that's what you're talking about, though I tend to go into an issue to edit anyways, so that isn't a bother to me.
Yeah, and based on the default workflow, if you use the "quick edit" screen (ie: click the edit icon on an issue in Greenhopper) then apply the update, it sets it to fixed. I tend to like to stay in my agile work view so I can see all the other stories so that I can refer to them where necessary in new stories.
@boomzilla said:
I'm not sure I understand the complaint about using two tabs. I tend to have several open at any given time, so using one to search or reference while editing something else seems reasonable to me.
Both Trello and Pivotal act as single page applications, allowing me to edit in place and manage stories at the same time. Again, it makes referencing things far simpler when I'm not having to switch workspaces all the time to know which story to reference or if said story already exists, etc. In Trello, searching actually filters the view while still letting me continue editing, and Pivotal opens a temporary column for search results (which can actually be pinned as well).
