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@Zerosquare Yeah, we have a similar problem in Germany as well. Though that's due to a not-so-great incentive - basically, energy is provided by the cheapest sources first (which would be solar and wind) but the ultimate price for all is determined by the most expensive source of energy making up the gap. Which currently is gas power plants.
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@boomzilla said in It has started:
@Zerosquare
Is that because you export a lot of it?The article mentions two causes: lack of Russian gas for thermal power plants, and only 24 of the 56 nuclear power plants being online at the moment.
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@Zerosquare said in It has started:
@boomzilla said in It has started:
@Zerosquare
Is that because you export a lot of it?The article mentions two causes: lack of Russian gas for thermal power plants, and only 24 of the 56 nuclear power plants being online at the moment.
Which is mostly due to it not having rained for the last 3684327 days.
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@topspin And as far as I've read also due to poor maintenance as the companies don't want to invest more money when they fear the politicians may any day come and say nuclear power plants shall be shut down by some point not too far in the future.
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@Gribnit said in It has started:
@HardwareGeek the only good thing the Gipper did
Thanks man! I managed to finish Wasteland 3 without even getting that joke.
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@topspin said in It has started:
@Zerosquare said in It has started:
@boomzilla said in It has started:
@Zerosquare
Is that because you export a lot of it?The article mentions two causes: lack of Russian gas for thermal power plants, and only 24 of the 56 nuclear power plants being online at the moment.
Which is mostly due to it not having rained for the last 3684327 days.
All thermal power plants need cooling water. Nuclear power is just a more exotic source of heat; it still involves making high pressure steam and feeding it through turbines. Gas plants can run without water cooling if designed to, but they're much more efficient if you can cool them properly so that's what people do.
Most UK nuke plants are by the sea, or on the tidal parts of rivers, so they can dump heat that way, but France has a lot further upstream on rivers. Which was good because it meant they had a lot more suitable sites, but bad now that the rivers have dropped so low. (I was looking the other day at pictures of the Loire, which reminded me of the Australian outback for dryness. There was almost no river left! Startling and shocking.)
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@dkf over here the Rhine has surfaced “hunger stones”, relics of past droughts and famines. Basically says “if you can read this, you’re
driving too closefucked“.Which of course affects other reactors like coal too, if you literally can’t ship the stuff upstream.
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@topspin said in It has started:
Which is mostly due to it not having rained for the last 3684327 days.
There was a forecast of 15 liters per square meter rain for last night. Well, I do not think that each of those 15 droplets contained 1 liter...
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@BernieTheBernie Well, rain and other weather events may be highly localized.
I remember that my mother once called me because a whirlwind had removed the roofing of several houses in the north of Hamburg (and remember, over here our roof tiles are usually made of stone). I just replied that I didn't see any of that and in fact had blue skies with no clouds above me in the south of Hamburg
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Next step in the energy crisis: Arcelor Mittal stops a blast furnace (? item in steel production). And at their site in Hamburg, they'll replace an intermediate product they used to produce there with an imported product from the US.
Energiepreise: Arcelor-Mittal fährt ersten Hochofen runter
Arcelor-Mittal legt einen Hochofen „bis auf weiteres“ still. Wegen hoher Energiekosten sind auch andere Metallunternehmen wachsam. Sie fordern einen Tarif für Industriestrom.
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@BernieTheBernie said in It has started:
blast furnace (? item in steel production)
Blast furnace is the first step, but I don't think it uses that much energy as the heat comes from burning the coke that has to be there anyway because it doubles as reduction agent. It is the next step that needs a lot of energy as it keeps the pig iron molten for extended period of time to burn off the excess carbon down to get down to the desired carbon content.
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@Bulb Yeah. But they're working on replacing the coke with hydrogen as the reducing agent. Which is why any sort of individual transportation based on hydrogen (or its derivatives like e-fuels) is a pipe dream.
But, as the article makes clear, it's actually the price for gas which is driving the costs for electricity.
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@Rhywden said in It has started:
@Bulb Yeah. But they're working on replacing the coke with hydrogen as the reducing agent.
Which is why any sort of individual transportation based on hydrogen (or its derivatives like e-fuels) is a pipe dream.
Yeah, well, hydrogen isn't an energy source, only an alternative to the batteries that side-steps some of the problems with them. The power generation capacity is indeed still needed to use hydrogen.
But, as the article makes clear, it's actually the price for gas which is driving the costs for electricity.
Among other things, yes. Or rather gas prices are driving electricity prices so high because strategic mistakes were made.
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@Bulb said in It has started:
sidesteps some of the problems with them.
And adds a raft of its own, what with hydrogen embrittlement, leakage, density issues, etc. It might make sense in some limited applications. But as a gasoline replacement? Unlikely IMO.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in It has started:
@Bulb said in It has started:
sidesteps some of the problems with them.
And adds a raft of its own, what with hydrogen embrittlement, leakage, density issues, etc. It might make sense in some limited applications. But as a gasoline replacement? Unlikely IMO.
I recently saw a comment from someone who actually works on a large-scale hydrogen plant. It's a bit too long to post it here (because I can't be arsed to translate it, maybe tomorrow) but the gist was that it's pretty far from "plonk water in and run current through it". And fuel-cells are again pretty far from as easy to use as a solely battery-driven car. Because you basically have the same stuff and the fuel-cell on top.
I mean, even with the most efficient production methods thinkable (and there's a hard upper limit as well), we arrive at roughly 50 kWh / kg. And by pure chance, 1 kg is about what a fuel-cell car will need to drive 100 km.
If I'm driving my ID.3 economically, I arrive at about 13 kWh / 100 km. And I could, in principle, use my own solar cells to charge my car and no one would be concerned. But put a large-scale electrolysis plant in my backyard and it's a whole different story...
... although car dealerships would love fuel-cells - they'd ensure that you'll have to return at regular intervals to get various filters and membranes replaced. And if you think that a faulty compressor in your air-con is a problem, just wait until a pressure imbalance just ruptured a membrane which itself costs about 1200€.
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@Bulb said in It has started:
@Rhywden said in It has started:
But, as the article makes clear, it's actually the price for gas which is driving the costs for electricity.
Among other things, yes. Or rather gas prices are driving electricity prices so high because strategic mistakes were made.
Yes, but also no.
Apparently there’s this thing they call “merit order” which orders offers so that the cheapest gets executed first, but the most expensive dictates the price. So if you have 90% cheap electricity prices, but can’t fulfill all demand with cheap electricity, the remaining 10% with stupidly high gas prices makes the cheap electricity more expensive too.
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@topspin The merit order system in and of itself isn't a bad idea if you have a market where it's essential to have all the gaps covered - it creates a drive to build cheaper energy sources (because then you'll get the difference between your normal price and the merit order price as a nice bonus without having to do anything) and it also prevents the situation of "why should I start this power plant if I'm forced to drive it at a loss".
It's just that the difference between the cheapest and the most expensive energy provider is so damn huge.
And due to the aforementioned two factors, we have to be really careful if we want to change this system.
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@Rhywden said in It has started:
If I'm driving my ID.3 economically, I arrive at about 13 kWh / 100 km. And I could, in principle, use my own solar cells to charge my car and no one would be concerned. But put a large-scale electrolysis plant in my backyard and it's a whole different story...
Though I have just seen that there is indeed a company selling such electrolysis solutions as another means of storing energy. For the low, low price of about 80,000€.
And it lacks the compressor to liquify the gas...
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@topspin said in It has started:
@Bulb said in It has started:
@Rhywden said in It has started:
But, as the article makes clear, it's actually the price for gas which is driving the costs for electricity.
Among other things, yes. Or rather gas prices are driving electricity prices so high because strategic mistakes were made.
Yes, but also no.
Apparently there’s this thing they call “merit order” which orders offers so that the cheapest gets executed first, but the most expensive dictates the price. So if you have 90% cheap electricity prices, but can’t fulfill all demand with cheap electricity, the remaining 10% with stupidly high gas prices makes the cheap electricity more expensive too.That's where the strategic mistakes come into play. If the demand is less then the supply, the most expensive sources won't get used and won't affect the price, because the price is the price of the most expensive source that does get used. But with Germany shutting down their nuclear plants and France letting theirs fall to disrepair we don't have enough installed power to avoid them at the moment.
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@Bulb Our measly 3 nuclear plants don't affect things all that much. After all, if even one(1) gas plant comes into play the price is set by said plant.
It's a binary condition. You could only avoid that by not having to power up the gas plants at all. None of them.
And since gas plants are much more dynamic than nuclear plants you cannot exchange one for the other. The only real replacement for gas plants is "solar/wind + storage".
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Let’s just get the tokomaks that are in construction done already. (Edit: I’m interested in the fact that it is more energy with less nasty waste at the end of it. The resulting mess it will make to industries and whatnot is a separate problem entirely.)
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Oh Holy Shit!
Toilet paper producer Hakle went broke because of high energy costs:
And now release the next
Hakle: Toilettenpapierhersteller wegen hoher Energiekosten insolvent
Seit fast hundert Jahren stellt Hakle Toilettenpapier her. Vor allem während der Corona-Pandemie waren die Rollen gefragt. Die hohen Energiekosten zwingen das Düsseldorfer Unternehmen nun aber zu einem drastischen Schritt.
virus!
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@BernieTheBernie Quick, somebody tell their HR! They're still hiring!
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@Rhywden said in It has started:
@Bulb Our measly 3 nuclear plants don't affect things all that much. After all, if even one(1) gas plant comes into play the price is set by said plant.
3 now. How many were already decommissioned in the last couple of years?
And since gas plants are much more dynamic than nuclear plants you cannot exchange one for the other. The only real replacement for gas plants is "solar/wind + storage".
You cannot exchange one for the other, but if you can take all base load of hydro, you can use those for peaks.
Also since its traded by time, if all gas ones stop running for at least some time, the overall expenses for customers already start going down.
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@Bulb said in It has started:
How many were already decommissioned in the last couple of years?
Of the 17 nuclear power plants Germany had at its peak, three remain in operation as of 2022
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@Bulb said in It has started:
@Rhywden said in It has started:
@Bulb Our measly 3 nuclear plants don't affect things all that much. After all, if even one(1) gas plant comes into play the price is set by said plant.
3 now. How many were already decommissioned in the last couple of years?
I'm not sure how much decommissioned ones matter. I'd also like to point out that you're currently trying to have your cake and eat it, too.
Because you're complaining about not enough nuclear power plants when an absolute metric shit-ton of said plants in France has had to power down not only due to disrepair but also due to the simple fact that the cooling water is not quite cool enough. So, we actually have a metric ton of nuclear plants (you know, since there's a European grid we can receive and supply power EU-wide) but cannot use them.
And hydro? Please. Those are either running literally dry or, in the case of pumped storage hydro power stations, there are not nearly enough of them (and will never be as they have very specific requirements).
Not to mention that with nuclear we'd get into yet another dependance on Russia - since they're the largest suppliers of enriched uranium. Plus, the actual costs of nuclear power is also on the not-quite-so-cheap side. I mean, it's probably because they are sooo cheap that France neglected to do proper maintenance.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in It has started:
@Rhywden Keep telling yourself this for a fuzzy feeling when you Flintstone-mobile your EV.3 or whatever this winter.
is 
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@topspin This is your friendly periodic reminder that the Garage is not, in fact, a container for political opinions you don't like.
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@GOG said in It has started:
@topspin This is your friendly periodic reminder that the Garage is not, in fact, a container for political opinions you don't like.
Really?
Because I've been told that it's not only a "container for political opinions you don't like", not even a "container for political opinions", but a "container for anything that somebody else could vaguely interpret as political even if that's not what you said".
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@topspin Both "container for political opinions" and "container for anything vaguely political" could technically be true.
What isn't true is "container for political opinions you specifically don't like", so knock it off.
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I could have said it without involving a personal attack.
I have plenty more where that came from, all very disparaging and personally offensive terms, but shall temper myself.
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The "Arguing about the Garage" thread is
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@GOG said in It has started:
@topspin Both "container for political opinions" and "container for anything vaguely political" could technically be true.
What isn't true is "container for political opinions you specifically don't like", so knock it off.
One is a subset of the other.
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@topspin said in It has started:
@GOG said in It has started:
@topspin This is your friendly periodic reminder that the Garage is not, in fact, a container for political opinions you don't like.
Really?
Because I've been told that it's not only a "container for political opinions you don't like", not even a "container for political opinions", but a "container for anything that somebody else could vaguely interpret as political even if that's not what you said".Indeed. I've been yelled at because I posted something in the Lounge and a certain Bear took exception to that because he didn't like it and did not want, and I quote here, "politics in the Lounge".
Weirdly enough, when another user then went on about his opinions about the 1FA in the Lounge, nobody took exception that time
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Frankly, I don't care whether all politics is kept to the Garage or not - as long as it's all politics.
What I'm seeing a lot of, however, is "my political opinions are obviously DoublePlusGood and deserve to be voiced in General/Lounge/etc., while your political opinions are obviously DoublePlusUngood and must be relegated to the Garage".
One or the other, boys and girls. As for me, I'm content to think of the Garage as a matter of style, rather than substance.
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@GOG said in It has started:
One or the other, boys and girls.
That's what I'm saying. Come back to me when you've made up your mind.
As for me, I'm content to think of the Garage as a matter of style, rather than substance.
@Applied-Mediocrity said in It has started:
I could have said it without involving a personal attack.
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@topspin I'm fine with politics everywhere.
I thought Applied-Mediocrity's post was mild enough by forum standards - it didn't even clock 0.5 on the Blakeyrant scale, and Blakey used to do that all the time, everywhere, about everything.
He wasn't banned or anything - last I heard, he's staying away 'coz the place is "too MAGA".
If A-M feels it could've been said better - fine with me. However, let's not pretend that this sort of thing is in itself Garage-worthy.
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@GOG said in It has started:
Blakey used to do that all the time, everywhere, about everything.
He wasn't banned or anything
"Not being banned" is a pretty low bar here. Doesn't mean Blakeyrat's behavior was fine and dandy.
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@GOG When you get threatened by a certain mod that he'll delete your posts (and has done so in the past) because he personally does not like them then I'd say that this particular ship has sailed.
I found it very interesting when said mod made a post, I responded in kind and said mod then decided to threaten to delete my post.
So, the double-standard exists, yes. And one of the most egregious offenders is a mod.
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@GOG said in It has started:
I thought Applied-Mediocrity's post was mild enough by forum standards - it didn't even clock 0.5 on the Blakeyrant scale, and Blakey used to do that all the time, everywhere, about everything.
I don't get how it's political. The whole point of this thread is the energy crisis in Europe. Not having electricity to charge a car seems like a pretty obvious problem no matter how much denial one pours into European Energy Policy in the face of lack of capacity.
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@Rhywden said in It has started:
So, the double-standard exists, yes. And one of the most egregious offenders is a mod.
We have mods on this forum?
@Zerosquare said in It has started:
"Not being banned" is a pretty low bar here. Doesn't mean Blakeyrat's behavior was fine and dandy.
And yet, he remains a forum legend.
I've had Blakey blow up at me for no reason a number of times over the years, and yet I still recall him fondly. Blakey is Blakey. What can you do?
We might not necessarily want another one, but getting to that level would take some doing in any case.
@boomzilla said in It has started:
I don't get how it's political. The whole point of this thread is the energy crisis in Europe. Not having electricity to charge a car seems like a pretty obvious problem no matter how much denial one pours into European Energy Policy in the face of lack of capacity.
It's not like this isn't a crisis of our own manufacturing. We knew exactly how much energy we needed and where we could plausibly get it. Nothing that's happening right now couldn't have easily been predicted twenty years ago. Instead, we chose to do the exact opposite, because it seemed like a great idea at the time.
Kinda par for the course, when you think about it.
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@GOG said in It has started:
Nothing that's happening right now couldn't have easily been predicted twenty years ago. Instead, we chose to do the exact opposite, because it seemed like a great idea at the time.
We actually have known about the problem since Arrhenius. That was more than a 100 years ago. He just erred on the timescale (he was a bit optimistic).
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@Rhywden said in It has started:
We actually know about the problem since Arrhenius. That was more than a 100 years ago. He just erred on the timescale (he was a bit optimistic).
Yes, but how are you gonna keep the lights on and people from freezing is my question?
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@GOG said in It has started:
@Rhywden said in It has started:
We actually know about the problem since Arrhenius. That was more than a 100 years ago. He just erred on the timescale (he was a bit optimistic).
Yes, but how are you gonna keep the lights on and people from freezing is my question?
We'll manage. Probably better than, say, Texas.
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@GOG said in It has started:
@Rhywden said in It has started:
We actually know about the problem since Arrhenius. That was more than a 100 years ago. He just erred on the timescale (he was a bit optimistic).
Yes, but how are you gonna keep the lights on and people from freezing is my question?
It's kind of beyond parody when he jumps on the bad science bandwagon to defend bad decisions.
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@Rhywden Good luck with that, then. You'll forgive us for not joining your little follies.
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@GOG said in It has started:
You'll forgive us for not joining your little follies.
No worries, you seem quite busy enough with your own little follies.
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@ixvedeusi Everyone got problems, yo!
Nuclear power phase-out - Wikipedia
