I am on the ground I am on the ground I am on the ground I am on the ground HEY LISTEN
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@dhromed said:
@boomzilla said:
All we're saying is that you're wrong.
No I'm not actually saying that, because I kind of agree that a huge-ass redstone contraption that re-implements a common processing device isn't really fulfilling the obvious goals that the game sets, such as mining; and crafting.
It may or may not fulfill any obvious game-set goals. I've never played, and I'm not that familiar with it. Wikipedia says it has a creative mode, though, which sounds pretty open ended to me. The only goal seems to be to have fun with it.
Blakeyrat often (rightly) complains that developers of various types of programs don't experiment or push boundaries enough. It's therefore kind of ironic that he has such a constricted view of what "playing a game" means.
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Does this mean Will Wright doesn't design games?
<font size="1">Will Wright has long been an advocate of emergent gameplay and sandbox games.</font>
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@dhromed said:
A google search for [emacs maze] gives (for me) some... interesting... results. Am I on the right thread?@blakeyrat said:
How? Using a shitty tool to do something it wasn't designed to do it just... using a shitty tool to do something it wasn't designed to do. It's not an act of creativity.
Using a shitty tool in a nonstandard way has no bearing on whether an act is creative or not.
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@PJH said:
A google search for [emacs maze] gives (for me) some... interesting... results. Am I on the right thread?
You are on the path to enlightenment, young padawan.
Now turn left.
And left.
Right.
Straight on.
Left, right, left, right right
Now there are no doubts any more.
You are definitely lost.
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I think blakey's just mad because the guy made a Minecraft calculator rather than a Minecraft My Little Pony fighter.
That being said: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrfE0oCCNhk"]Mincraft: Hungry Hungry Hippos![/url]
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@joe.edwards said:
Does this mean Will Wright doesn't design games?
<font size="1">Will Wright has long been an advocate of emergent gameplay and sandbox games.</font>
Depends on your perspective. Chris Crawford would say no. From the Wikipedia article:
In more open-ended computer simulations, also known as sandbox-style games, the game provides a virtual environment in which the player may be free to do whatever they like within the confines of this universe. Sometimes, there is a lack of goals or opposition, which has stirred some debate on whether these should be considered "games" or "toys". (Crawford specifically mentions Will Wright's SimCity as an example of a toy.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game#Video_games
So basically, if your definition requires specific goals and an opponent, then SimCity is more of a toy than a game. Same goes for the Minecraft stuff: if you're making circuits in Minecraft, you're definitely playing, but you're playing with a toy rather than formally playing a game.
That said, especially in the case of video-games-as-toys, 95% of the relevant populace probably isn't going to make that distinction, and will just say "I like Minecraft too, but the way you play is really weird." The other 5% love formal definitions and pedantic dickweedery (but hey, who doesn't?).
I'm probably part of that 5%, but I'm also a big fan of doing weird shit in video games just because you can. The point is not to "play a game," the point is to have some fun and get through another day without slitting your wrists.
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@Justice said:
So basically, if your definition requires specific goals and an opponent, then SimCity is more of a toy than a game.
I very clearly count "increase your numbers" as a goal, which means that SimCity, WoW and Minecraft and games, plain and simple.
Things only change when a player creates their own goals (or is invited or allowed to do so by the game). At that point, it is a self-made game or project, that uses the original game-software a medium, a tool, a means to an end.
So that puts Minecraft in the "little bit of both" meta-category.
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@dhromed said:
@Justice said:
So basically, if your definition requires specific goals and an opponent, then SimCity is more of a toy than a game.
I very clearly count "increase your numbers" as a goal, which means that SimCity, WoW and Minecraft and games, plain and simple.
Things only change when a player creates their own goals (or is invited or allowed to do so by the game). At that point, it is a self-made game or project, that uses the original game-software a medium, a tool, a means to an end.
So that puts Minecraft in the "little bit of both" meta-category.
I don't think we're in disagreement (if you were disagreeing, if not, my mistake). Anything where you have that degree of freedom starts getting into that weird grey area. I also find that most really great games (as in stand-the-test-of-time, Mario 64 great) have at least some opportunity to deviate from core gameplay or the prescribed path, whether it be by design or through glitches.
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@Justice said:
Anything where you have that degree of freedom starts getting into that weird grey area.
True, but I find that SimCity doesn't really let you fuck around that much. You get punished quickly for fucking around, since its system simply stops working. Your houses don't get built, your roads congest, you run out of money. For a simgame, it's surprisingly on rails.
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@dhromed said:
For a simgame, it's surprisingly on rails.
That's like complaining about a combat simulator where you die if you shoot yourself in the head. Of course bad stuff will happen if you do dumb things. It's a simulator, not a level editor.
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@Zylon said:
Of course bad stuff will happen if you do dumb things.
I'm referring to the new, emergent stuff that happens when you fuck around.
Simcity just lets you lose.
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@dhromed said:
"That's a nice city layout. Hey! I know what would make it even better! Aliens destroying all the buildings!"@Zylon said:
Of course bad stuff will happen if you do dumb things.
I'm referring to the new, emergent stuff that happens when you fuck around.
Simcity just lets you lose.
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@Xyro said:
@immibis said:
Turns out there's a global pool of VECTORS.
:O what, seriously? Can you give me a link to that, because that's insane and I want to make fun of it.
Go download MCP (Minecraft Coder's Pack), use it to decompile/deobfuscate Minecraft, then look at the net.minecraft.src.Vec3D class.
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@Ben L. said:
"That's a nice city layout. Hey! I know what would make it even better! Aliens destroying all the buildings!"
Which is why SimCity lets you turn disasters off. Or unleash them intentionally.
