Horrible place to work
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I just ran across this question on SE.
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My employer is also requiring all employees to sign agreements stating that they will be fired with cause (i.e. no severance) if they provide a reference for a current/former colleague.
How is that legal?!
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@topspin said in Horrible place to work:
My employer is also requiring all employees to sign agreements stating that they will be fired with cause (i.e. no severance) if they provide a reference for a current/former colleague.
How is that legal?!
It's not. You can't ban people from providing an opinion on the personal qualities of someone.
But whether they can get away with enforcing it is another matter entirely. That's up to the courts and lawyers.
And whether they can be sued for snooping, if they decide to dig up who actually provided a reference, is yet another.
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The company can't require you to sign away your employment rights.
Given that the policy is presumably to dissuade people from leaving, it seems very unlikely that they'd actually fire anyone half decent for giving a reference anyway, or for refusing to sign up to the new policy.
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@bobjanova said in Horrible place to work:
Given that the policy is presumably to dissuade people from leaving
devising new policies that make people want to leave is not a particularly good strategy.
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This is one of those few, rare occasions I'd say a union could actually do some good. And I very rarely say that.
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@topspin
There is an element (discussed at a bit more length in the later answers on that SE) of the company has the right to mandate supervisors don't provide professional references of their employees, with an eye toward restricting those references to limited (and presumably trained in legalese) HR staff. If someone gives an inaccurate negative reference (or sometimes even one that's completely accurate but overly negative) it can make the company liable for slander / defamation charges, so by restricting the professional references the company gives to "he was employed here from X to Y and is/is not eligible for rehire", the company avoids that potential liability. And since they're responsible for their agents' behavior, the company has the right to enforce that their managers adhere to that sort of professional reference standard.As far as giving a personal reference, the company doesn't have a leg to stand on. Of course, it gets a bit murky if you try to include work ethic / how the employee was in the work environment within that personal reference.
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I wonder how the company expects to even know if their rules are followed. I mean, if I send an email from my personal account to the personal account of someone else, and they forward (print, whatever) that mail to a recruiter, how would my company know that I did it? Add a minuscule disclaimer in that review (e.g. just add the name of the recruiter in the reference letter) and it becomes private correspondance, and if your employer fires you for not having followed the policy, you can sue them back for having somehow accessed your private correspondance.
Coupled with the almost certainty that preventing you to do that is illegal, that should be enough to sue them to death and back.
That might still loose you your job in the end, but not without a nice stack of money in your pocket and anyway, who would want to stay in a company that does this?
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@remi said in Horrible place to work:
That might still loose you your job in the end, but not without a nice stack of money in your pocket and anyway, who would want to stay in a company that does this?
I think you mean "a nice stack of money in some lawyers' pockets", but yes.
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@remi said in Horrible place to work:
Coupled with the almost certainty that preventing you to do that is illegal, that should be enough to sue them to death and back.
That might still loose you your job in the end, but not without a nice stack of money in your pocket and anyway, who would want to stay in a company that does this?I'm not sure anyone who thinks taking someone to court is quick, easy money has ever been to court.
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@error @Steve_The_Cynic It seems such a slam-dunk of an illegal clause that I doubt it would ever get to a court. In all likelihood as soon as a lawyer for the company would look at the details they would tell them to settle out of court. So while part of that settlement will end up in lawyers' pockets, some of it is still likely to reach yours.
That is, unless you are in a shitty place where this clause has a tiny chance of being legal, such as ().
(unrelated: I love how the best match for
:usa:
is:russia:
)
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@error it is in Europe. We also have employees' rights, unlimited paid sick leave, 40-hour work week that's actually 40 hours, mandatory 5 weeks of paid time off, and at least 1 month of notice period so you cannot be suddenly fired for no reason.
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@Gąska said in Horrible place to work:
@error it is in Europe. We also have employees' rights, unlimited paid sick leave, 40-hour work week that's actually 40 hours, mandatory 5 weeks of paid time off, and at least 1 month of notice period so you cannot be suddenly fired for no reason.
Minor correction: It's not unlimited. Not sure about the actual limits but only the first few weeks are sick leave at full pay. After that, you'll be paid a reduced rate (and by your insurance company, not your employer).
At least that's the way it works in Germany.
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@Rhywden said in Horrible place to work:
@Gąska said in Horrible place to work:
@error it is in Europe. We also have employees' rights, unlimited paid sick leave, 40-hour work week that's actually 40 hours, mandatory 5 weeks of paid time off, and at least 1 month of notice period so you cannot be suddenly fired for no reason.
Minor correction: It's not unlimited. Not sure about the actual limits but only the first few weeks are sick leave at full pay. After that, you'll be paid a reduced rate (and by your insurance company, not your employer).
At least that's the way it works in Germany.
Same in NL. And at some point (after a year or so) you get shifted to disability benefits, meaning the employer no longer has to foot the bill.
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@Rhywden said in Horrible place to work:
@Gąska said in Horrible place to work:
@error it is in Europe. We also have employees' rights, unlimited paid sick leave, 40-hour work week that's actually 40 hours, mandatory 5 weeks of paid time off, and at least 1 month of notice period so you cannot be suddenly fired for no reason.
Minor correction: It's not unlimited. Not sure about the actual limits but only the first few weeks are sick leave at full pay. After that, you'll be paid a reduced rate (and by your insurance company, not your employer).
As opposed to USA, where after one or two weeks you're paid zero.
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@Gąska said in Horrible place to work:
@Rhywden said in Horrible place to work:
@Gąska said in Horrible place to work:
@error it is in Europe. We also have employees' rights, unlimited paid sick leave, 40-hour work week that's actually 40 hours, mandatory 5 weeks of paid time off, and at least 1 month of notice period so you cannot be suddenly fired for no reason.
Minor correction: It's not unlimited. Not sure about the actual limits but only the first few weeks are sick leave at full pay. After that, you'll be paid a reduced rate (and by your insurance company, not your employer).
As opposed to USA, where after one or two weeks you're paid zero.
Which probably also explains why you guys all end up driving golf carts or are forced to ride bikes to work.
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@boomzilla at least we don't end up driving mobility scooters
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@Gąska suckers
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@boomzilla said in Horrible place to work:
ride bikes to work.
They try to act like that's an option for us, too. I live about 20 miles (32km) from work, and summer temperatures frequently exceed 100°F (~37.8C).
Also, I don't know how to ride a bike.
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@error said in Horrible place to work:
@boomzilla said in Horrible place to work:
ride bikes to work.
They try to act like that's an option for us, too. I live about 20 miles (32km) from work, and summer temperatures frequently exceed 100°F (~37.8C).
Also, I don't know how to ride a bike.
And you can afford better.
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@boomzilla said in Horrible place to work:
@error said in Horrible place to work:
@boomzilla said in Horrible place to work:
ride bikes to work.
They try to act like that's an option for us, too. I live about 20 miles (32km) from work, and summer temperatures frequently exceed 100°F (~37.8C).
Also, I don't know how to ride a bike.
And you can afford better.
Yes, it's a horrible decision to have to make.
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@PleegWat said in Horrible place to work:
@boomzilla said in Horrible place to work:
@error said in Horrible place to work:
@boomzilla said in Horrible place to work:
ride bikes to work.
They try to act like that's an option for us, too. I live about 20 miles (32km) from work, and summer temperatures frequently exceed 100°F (~37.8C).
Also, I don't know how to ride a bike.
And you can afford better.
Yes, it's a horrible decision to have to make.
Could not agree more! Look at those suckers on the bikes.
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@boomzilla said in Horrible place to work:
Could not agree more! Look at those suckers on the bikes.
The could do worse
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@PleegWat ugh, yes. The only thing worse than biking to work is public transportation. For one thing, it generally entails a long walk.
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@boomzilla said in Horrible place to work:
@PleegWat ugh, yes. The only thing worse than biking to work is public transportation.
I can think of a few more. Being stuck behind a tractor on a busy 1-lane road. A medical helicopter landing in the middle of a highway, blocking all traffic. Or being stuck in a traffic jam with a thousand cars before you and a thousand cars behind you, and being told by a police officer to abandon the vehicle and leave the highway on foot.
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@Gąska said in Horrible place to work:
@boomzilla said in Horrible place to work:
@PleegWat ugh, yes. The only thing worse than biking to work is public transportation.
I can think of a few more. Being stuck behind a tractor on a busy 1-lane road. A medical helicopter landing in the middle of a highway, blocking all traffic. Or being stuck in a traffic jam with a thousand cars before you and a thousand cars behind you, and being told by a police officer to abandon the vehicle and leave the highway on foot.
None of those are things which happen on every commute though.
Trains rarely, if ever, beat cars on time or cost, let alone both, even station-to-station. The main reason to use them is to avoid having to deal with parking at your destination.
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@PleegWat said in Horrible place to work:
@Gąska said in Horrible place to work:
@boomzilla said in Horrible place to work:
@PleegWat ugh, yes. The only thing worse than biking to work is public transportation.
I can think of a few more. Being stuck behind a tractor on a busy 1-lane road. A medical helicopter landing in the middle of a highway, blocking all traffic. Or being stuck in a traffic jam with a thousand cars before you and a thousand cars behind you, and being told by a police officer to abandon the vehicle and leave the highway on foot.
None of those are things which happen on every commute though.
They happen with curiously high frequency to me. Especially tractors.
But yes, I agree nothing that ever happens on the road matches being stuck in a tram wagon with a gypsy beggar playing accordion.
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@PleegWat said in Horrible place to work:
Trains rarely, if ever, beat cars on time or cost, let alone both, even station-to-station.
Your trains our weird. In Wrocław, it takes like 6 minutes to get from city edge to the center of downtown by train. Or 45 minutes by car. And you have nowhere to park.
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@Gąska said in Horrible place to work:
@PleegWat said in Horrible place to work:
Trains rarely, if ever, beat cars on time or cost, let alone both, even station-to-station.
Your trains our weird. In Wrocław, it takes like 6 minutes to get from city edge to the center of downtown by train. Or 45 minutes by car. And you have nowhere to park.
Living in a place where parking is abundant is definitely a key to a happy life.
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@PleegWat said in Horrible place to work:
The main reason to use them is to avoid having to deal with parking at your destination.
I can think of a few more:
- You can have a drink and ride a train.
- Depending on the type of train, you may have time to relax and/or start working on your commute.
- On my current commute (frequent, unpredictable traffic jams), it's the far more reliable and (somewhat surprisingly) less stressful option.
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@error said in Horrible place to work:
They try to act like that's an option for us, too. I live about 20 miles (32km) from work
Pfft, @Luhmann does that for breakfast. Twice.
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@Gąska said in Horrible place to work:
@PleegWat said in Horrible place to work:
Trains rarely, if ever, beat cars on time or cost, let alone both, even station-to-station.
Your trains our weird. In Wrocław, it takes like 6 minutes to get from city edge to the center of downtown by train. Or 45 minutes by car. And you have nowhere to park.
It's about even in Hamburg. You may get into the city a bit faster (but only outside rush hour!) but lose the time with finding a parking space.
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@Gąska's future commuting plan:
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@Gąska said in Horrible place to work:
They happen with curiously high frequency to me. Especially tractors.
In Chicago?
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@HardwareGeek horses, too.
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@boomzilla said in Horrible place to work:
Living in a place where bike parking is abundant is definitely a key to a happy life.
The kickstand on my bike is broken, and people tend to frown on leaning the bike against their windows/glass store fronts/walls.
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@cvi said in Horrible place to work:
@boomzilla said in Horrible place to work:
Living in a place where bike parking is abundant is definitely a key to a happy life.
The kickstand on my bike is broken.
I have it on good authority that kickstands are for suckers, because .
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@Gąska said in Horrible place to work:
@boomzilla said in Horrible place to work:
@PleegWat ugh, yes. The only thing worse than biking to work is public transportation.
I can think of a few more. Being stuck behind a tractor on a busy 1-lane road. A medical helicopter landing in the middle of a highway, blocking all traffic. Or being stuck in a traffic jam with a thousand cars before you and a thousand cars behind you, and being told by a police officer to abandon the vehicle and leave the highway on foot.
I feel like you're telling a story in 3 parts here...
I can think of a few more. Being stuck behind a tractor on a busy 1-lane road.
Then you pass him and go head on into someone...
A medical helicopter landing in the middle of a highway, blocking all traffic.
Obviously, because you just head-oned into someone at 50mph
being stuck in a traffic jam with a thousand cars before you and a thousand cars behind you, and being told by a police officer to abandon the vehicle and leave the highway on foot.
because the helicopter and aforementioned head-oned vehicles will take about 4 hours to clean up...
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@topspin said in Horrible place to work:
I have it on good authority that kickstands are for suckers, because .
I've come to find a new level of appreciation for them after having a broken one for some odd 9 months by now.
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@cvi said in Horrible place to work:
some odd 9 months by now.
January, February and most of March were ok. Things didn't really start getting odd until almost April.
Filed under: 2020
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@HardwareGeek said in Horrible place to work:
@cvi said in Horrible place to work:
some odd 9 months by now.
January, February and most of March were ok. Things didn't really start getting odd until almost April.
Filed under: 2020
It was the middle of March. Basically the week of the 8th-14th was when it all started. Not uniformly in the entire country, of course, but that was when things started majorly shutting down.
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@boomzilla Well, if we're going to take my joke seriously, I can tell you exactly when things got odd for me. Friday, 13 March. That's the day I took possession of my (rental) house here in TX and started the process of moving from CA. But things were so upside-down for me, personally, that the rest of the world being topsy-turvy didn't make a lot of difference to me until I got the truck unloaded in TX and started working from home almost a week and a half later.
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@boomzilla said in Horrible place to work:
@HardwareGeek horses, too.
I assume you were referring to this. I hadn't seen it until just now.
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@boomzilla said in Horrible place to work:
@PleegWat ugh, yes. The only thing worse than biking to work is public transportation. For one thing, it generally entails a long walk.
Or a bike ride!
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@PleegWat said in Horrible place to work:
Trains rarely, if ever, beat cars on time or cost, let alone both, even station-to-station.
When I was commuting to San Francisco, it was definitely better cost-wise. Especially when factoring in parking. Time? Yeah, not so much.
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@HardwareGeek said in Horrible place to work:
@boomzilla said in Horrible place to work:
@HardwareGeek horses, too.
I assume you were referring to this. I hadn't seen it until just now.
That's where I got the tweet that I posted right above your post that I replied to, yes.
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@boomzilla Oh, somehow I skipped right over that post.
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@Gąska said in Horrible place to work:
In Wrocław, it takes like 6 minutes to get from city edge to the center of downtown by train
Yeah but how long does it take to get from your house to a railway station, and to wait for the next train? And how long to get from the central station to where you want to be?
I do like trains because trying to drive into a city is frustrating and parking is difficult, but there is a lot of added time with public transport as well as the actual journey time.
My everyday commute is on a bike though and that feels so much better than any of the other options.