Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!
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https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/08/07/sciadv.abd3083
Mask, Name Description
1, ‘Surgical’ * Surgical mask, 3-layer
2, ‘Valved N95’ N95 mask with exhalation valve
3, ‘Knitted’ Knitted mask
4, ‘PolyProp’ 2-layer polypropylene apron mask
5, ‘Poly/Cotton’ Cotton-polypropylene-cotton mask
6, ‘MaxAT’ 1-layer Maxima AT mask
7, ‘Cotton2’ 2-layer cotton, pleated style mask
8, ‘Cotton4’ 2-layer cotton, Olson style mask
9, ‘Cotton3′ 2-layer cotton, pleated style mask
10, ‘Cotton1’ 1-layer cotton, pleated style mask
11, ‘Fleece’ Gaiter type neck fleece
12, ‘Bandana’ * Double-layer bandana
13, ‘Cotton5′ * 2-layer cotton, pleated style mask
14, ‘Fitted N95’ N95 mask, no exhalation valve, fitted
‘Swath’ Swath of mask material, polypropylene
‘None’ * Control experiment, no mask
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@topspin
Yeah that seat looks terrible
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@boomzilla we had a rule that kids were supposed to have at least dress code qualified tops on for zoom sessions. Was it enforced? Hah.
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@boomzilla I see one small problem with it. How do they tell a pajama T-shit from any other T-shirt (assuming the pants are hidden from the camera view by a table)?
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla we had a rule that kids were supposed to have at least dress code qualified tops on for zoom sessions. Was it enforced? Hah.
I can see reasons for, "Don't be naked or wearing the sorts of revealing clothing that you couldn't wear at school." But...no pajamas?
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@boomzilla there are pajamas and then there are pajamas. But I basically agree, especially for the elementary school ages. High school is a different matter IMO.
There is, actually, a noticable difference in attitude, behavior, and achievement when kids and adults dress seriously for school. "Casual days" actually make a difference. And having kids get out of bed and into school-ish clothes does actually, IMX, make a big difference, even when they're at home. As it does for the teachers.
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@Benjamin-Hall meh. In any case, any enforcement will backfire bigly, I suspect.
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@boomzilla oh, absolutely it will backfire or just not happen. In a public school they can't even enforce dress and behavior codes very well when everyone's present in the same room.
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Is there even a point to this policy when it's trivially bypassable?
"I don't have a webcam / I have one but it doesn't work / my Internet connection is too slow for video"
Unless they make video mandatory, but then it's a
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@Zerosquare said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Unless they make video mandatory, but then it's a
My son (college age, not elementary school) had a class for which video was mandatory, at least for the final exam. Some exam proctoring application required both audio and video throughout the exam; not having audio or video, moving out of camera range, any other person in camera range, and/or any audible conversation was an automatic fail. My son's laptop didn't have a camera, so I had to dig out a crappy old 320x240(?) USB webcam my kids had given me for Skype when I was living in WA years ago, because he couldn't take the test without something; IIRC, the proctoring app just said "NOPE!"
Edit: This was before COVID; it was just an online class.
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@Zerosquare said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Is there even a point to this policy when it's trivially bypassable?
"I don't have a webcam / I have one but it doesn't work / my Internet connection is too slow for video"
Unless they make video mandatory, but then it's aAround here they're giving everyone a laptop. Last school year they did that at the high school level and there was much complaining (through Boy Scouts I knew a bunch of high school students) because the machines were total potatoes. Will be interesting to see what they give out this year (my son's date to pick his up is August 24th).
I know that in the Spring they had been talking about giving people mobile hotspots if they didn't have internet. We have FiOS, so ours is fine. Never noticed any sort of issues even when people have been streaming Amazon or Netflix, plus Pandora or whatever.
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Interesting. I didn't expect the schools to provide the hardware.
There's still the privacy angle: some people might object to being filmed in their own home.
(Yeah, I realize we're talking about a population massively using video chat, selfies... but still)
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@Zerosquare said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
There's still the privacy angle: some people might object to being filmed in their own home.
Heh...I remember posting something about teachers complaining about this very thing. But one thing every home has: walls. Just sit with your back to one if it's such an issue. Still, you're right, people will find something to complain about.
My son loved the video aspect of school because he finally got to see and interact with friends. His history teacher left the meeting up for an hour or something after class ended just so the kids could hang out with each other.
I have a nephew who just started kindergarten (seems insane to me to start school at the beginning of August, but whatever). Three hours and 45 minutes of online instruction. My sister says it was a disaster and she's heartbroken about it, but there's really nothing she can do.
She's a middle school teacher who is extremely upset that the unions have sabotaged schools by making it all virtual this school year.
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@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
But one thing every home has: walls. Just sit with your back to one if it's such an issue.
Cries in NYC
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@Zerosquare said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
There's still the privacy angle: some people might object to being filmed in their own home.
Man, with all the tech, people just can't seem to think of the obvious anymore. Hang a sheet. Hell, my roommate in college (dorm room) in the mid-80s did that to create some privacy. (Um dude? Your wall doesn't stop sound...)
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@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla we had a rule that kids were supposed to have at least dress code qualified tops on for zoom sessions. Was it enforced? Hah.
I can see reasons for, "Don't be naked or wearing the sorts of revealing clothing that you couldn't wear at school." But...no pajamas?
It could be argued that forcing students to get up from bed, if only to dress up, makes them more attentive. I've seen numerous times in many different work-from-home best practices guides that it's supposedly well researched phenomenon that dressing up in your usual office attire makes you work more effectively than staying whole day in pajama.
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@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla we had a rule that kids were supposed to have at least dress code qualified tops on for zoom sessions. Was it enforced? Hah.
I can see reasons for, "Don't be naked or wearing the sorts of revealing clothing that you couldn't wear at school." But...no pajamas?
It could be argued that forcing students to get up from bed, if only to dress up, makes them more attentive. I've seen numerous times in many different work-from-home best practices guides that it's supposedly well researched phenomenon that dressing up in your usual office attire makes you work more effectively than staying whole day in pajama.
There is also some research into it in professional sports, rituals help you get into a state of mind. Getting ready for work is sort of a ritual.
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@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Heh...I remember posting something about teachers complaining about this very thing. But one thing every home has: walls. Just sit with your back to one if it's such an issue.
Don’t these video conferencing things have an option to replace the actual background by one of your choosing?
(Such a feature wouldn’t get abused at all, of course, in a school or office setting, so I guess that answers that question.)
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@Gurth said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Heh...I remember posting something about teachers complaining about this very thing. But one thing every home has: walls. Just sit with your back to one if it's such an issue.
Don’t these video conferencing things have an option to replace the actual background by one of your choosing?
(Such a feature wouldn’t get abused at all, of course, in a school or office setting, so I guess that answers that question.)
It's entirely possible to create a software cam source, and make that do whatever you wish.
For one gig, they required video standups, so I used a motion tracking 3D avatar as a video for that.
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@Gurth
Zoom and Teams both have ... it works but most of the time you can spot it because it isn't always smooth
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@Luhmann Zoom's even has a checkbox 'I have a green screen' to switch between the newfangled automatic portrait detection and the traditional green screen approach which is more CPU efficient and works better if you actually do have a green screen or suitable wall.
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@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
It's entirely possible to create a software cam source, and make that do whatever you wish.
For one gig, they required video standups, so I used a motion tracking 3D avatar as a video for that.Do you have link for setting up a software camera source in Windows?
I can setup a software camera in linux (using v4l2loopback), which I can feed video frames with pretty much whatever I desire, and that seems to work with most software so far (mainly the Skype client, and chromium, on which I run the rest of the crap as a web app).
I've been looking at setting up a single board computer to pretend being an USB webcam, via the linux USB gadget kernel interface, but have so far been too to actually do that. (Documentation for that is also a bit so-so, which definitively has contributed to not wanting to try it.)
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@cvi said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
It's entirely possible to create a software cam source, and make that do whatever you wish.
For one gig, they required video standups, so I used a motion tracking 3D avatar as a video for that.Do you have link for setting up a software camera source in Windows?
I can setup a software camera in linux (using v4l2loopback), which I can feed video frames with pretty much whatever I desire, and that seems to work with most software so far (mainly the Skype client, and chromium, on which I run the rest of the crap as a web app).
I've been looking at setting up a single board computer to pretend being an USB webcam, via the linux USB gadget kernel interface, but have so far been too to actually do that. (Documentation for that is also a bit so-so, which definitively has contributed to not wanting to try it.)
I doubt you'd be forced to write your own, there are several software options for virtual webcams for windows, but you should be able to do it through DirectShow or Media Foundation or if particularly masochistic as a kernel mode driver. I haven't done anything Windows in a rather long time though, so I wouldn't be a good source of information.
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Testing in production:
A bold move.
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@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Testing in production:
A bold move.
For Russia? Nah, business as usual.
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@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I doubt you'd be forced to write your own, there are several software options for virtual webcams for windows, but you should be able to do it through DirectShow or Media Foundation or if particularly masochistic as a kernel mode driver.
I haven't found any free software options though for Windows. While I definitely don't object to paying for software, I'm simply surprised something free/open source isn't out there yet just by the law of numbers. It's not an uncommon use case. Also I would assume an intersection between the privacy nuts who are like, "Don't let them see the room behind me!" and the FOSS community.
So I've had writing my own and releasing it on my list for a while. When I get around to it, I expect I'll find, as usual, that subtracting a static background (performantly) is in fact much harder than one would assume.
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@heterodox I thought OBS could do that
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@hungrier said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@heterodox I thought OBS could do that
Ah, looks like it can with a plugin (OBS Virtualcam). And it's open source. I'm used to using OBS as a sink and not a source.
I'm not sure OBS can subtract background without a green screen though. I think most people use XSplit VCam with OBS if they don't have a green screen.
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@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla we had a rule that kids were supposed to have at least dress code qualified tops on for zoom sessions. Was it enforced? Hah.
I can see reasons for, "Don't be naked or wearing the sorts of revealing clothing that you couldn't wear at school." But...no pajamas?
It could be argued that forcing students to get up from bed, if only to dress up, makes them more attentive. I've seen numerous times in many different work-from-home best practices guides that it's supposedly well researched phenomenon that dressing up in your usual office attire makes you work more effectively than staying whole day in pajama.
There is also some research into it in professional sports, rituals help you get into a state of mind. Getting ready for work is sort of a ritual.
Everything I've read about retirement says the same thing... (I'm paying more attention to that stuff since I'm getting rather close)
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@PleegWat said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Luhmann Zoom's even has a checkbox 'I have a green screen' to switch between the newfangled automatic portrait detection and the traditional green screen approach which is more CPU efficient and works better if you actually do have a green screen or suitable wall.
and I need to paint...
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@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I doubt you'd be forced to write your own, there are several software options for virtual webcams for windows, but you should be able to do it through DirectShow or Media Foundation or if particularly masochistic as a kernel mode driver. I haven't done anything Windows in a rather long time though, so I wouldn't be a good source of information.
I had a quick look around at some point, and arrived at the following (correct me if I got it wrong):
- most 3rd party software uses the DirectShow method. Apparently that doesn't work with the more modern Media Foundation stuff. (E.g. newer/(cr)appified Skype).
- Media Foundation doesn't include interfaces for software cameras (on purpose, if I remember correctly)
I guess that would leave the "proper" driver option, but unless that exists as some sort of (affordable) 3rd party option, it's probably too much effort (the USB gadget way seems more realistic at that point).
Anyway, not that important, I have it working on my Linux workstation, merely curious if somebody knew of a good Windows option.
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@cvi said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I doubt you'd be forced to write your own, there are several software options for virtual webcams for windows, but you should be able to do it through DirectShow or Media Foundation or if particularly masochistic as a kernel mode driver. I haven't done anything Windows in a rather long time though, so I wouldn't be a good source of information.
I had a quick look around at some point, and arrived at the following (correct me if I got it wrong):
- most 3rd party software uses the DirectShow method. Apparently that doesn't work with the more modern Media Foundation stuff. (E.g. newer/(cr)appified Skype).
- Media Foundation doesn't include interfaces for software cameras (on purpose, if I remember correctly)
I guess that would leave the "proper" driver option, but unless that exists as some sort of (affordable) 3rd party option, it's probably too much effort (the USB gadget way seems more realistic at that point).
Anyway, not that important, I have it working on my Linux workstation, merely curious if somebody knew of a good Windows option.
The advantage of using a pi is that the computer in question need not know any better than that it's a real camera. I understand the camera module of the pi is pretty common; there may already be code out there to use a pi as a webcam which can be modified to use a different video source.
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@Luhmann said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gurth
Zoom and Teams both have ... it works but most of the time you can spot it because it isn't always smoothThat is a problem if you’re using it to make people believe you’re remotely connecting to the office from a beach in Bali, but not if the idea is to prevent people from seeing inside your house.
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Are we still doing "Scientifically invalid mask laws are an infringement of civil liberties?"
Because
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gąska I agree. But you can obey and question. It's not an either/or.
Corollary: If you "question" rules, and the answer you come up with never turns out to be "yeah, that's actually a perfectly legitimate rule afterall," then what you're doing isn't actually questioning; it's just rebellion for rebellion's sake.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear my first thought was that this is some unexpected consequence of badly written rules. But no. This is deliberate.
“Also, wear your mask, even if you are home, to participate in a virtual meeting that involves being seen — such as on Zoom or another video-conferencing platform — by non-DNR staff,” Cole reportedly wrote. “Set the safety example which shows you as a DNR public service employee care about the safety and health of others.”
It's explicitly stated that it's just for show. They are fully aware it doesn't help anything. It's literally mandatory virtue signaling.
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gąska I agree. But you can obey and question. It's not an either/or.
Corollary: If you "question" rules, and the answer you come up with never turns out to be "yeah, that's actually a perfectly legitimate rule afterall," then what you're doing isn't actually questioning; it's just rebellion for rebellion's sake.
Just remember that about once every 50 questions is a whole lot more than never.
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@dkf said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@GuyWhoKilledBear said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
If masks are super necessary to prevent the spread of COVID, then show us evidence of that.
Masks are not necessary. Full lockdown also definitely works. Or shooting anyone with a temperature; that can be done while socially distanced, even automated with a heat camera, belt-fed weapon and controlling AI. (We don't have a vaccine released yet, so that option isn't available. Post-infection treatments are a mitigation, not a prevention strategy.)
You want this disease gone. I want this disease gone. We all want it gone. I'm not going to kid myself by pretending that sticking fingers in my ears and going “la la la can't hear you” is an effective strategy. Got a genuinely better suggestion than that? Cool! Let's hear it…
Mass inoculation, AKA "what we did for centuries before the invention of the vaccine." It consists of deliberately exposing as many people as we safely can as quickly as we can and getting it over quickly, establishing herd immunity so that the people who can't be safely exposed are protected. With a virus like this, it's pretty simple to accomplish: just go about your normal lives and don't lock down anything that isn't directly related to vulnerable people.
Heck, those of us on this side of the pond could even make a case for it being a proud American tradition. Before going into battle, George Washington deliberately exposed his entire army to smallpox, of all things, so that they would be inoculated against it!
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@Mason_Wheeler It depends a bit on the health care system if such a thing is possible. Here in the Netherlands, the government had the same idea, but after the health care system capacity was exhausted in March, only 5% of the population had had the coronavirus. And now there are doubts whether there is long term immunity at all. The number of people with antibodies is going down rather than up and today or yesterday the news was that someone died after getting COVID-19 twice(!).
However, I found out that for example California has 20x as many intensive care beds per capita than here, so then the options may be different.
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@Grunnen said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
And now there are doubts whether there is long term immunity at all.
But also it turns out that a lot of people already had some immunity without apparently being exposed.
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@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
It's literally mandatory virtue signaling.
Making it mandatory does bad things to the signal-to-noise ratio...
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@Grunnen said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
And now there are doubts whether there is long term immunity at all.
That just makes it all the more crucial to get it over with as quickly as possible!
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@Mason_Wheeler It leads to an overload of the medical system so that triage becomes necessary, and at least here that seems to be a red line that "everyone" wants to avoid at any costs (quite literally).
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@heterodox said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I expect I'll find, as usual, that subtracting a static background (performantly) is in fact much harder than one would assume.
I tried implementing it once (a long time ago), and even when you have a clean picture of the background as a reference, it's not as as straightforward as it looks if you want acceptable-quality results.
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@Gurth said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
That is a problem if you’re using it to make people believe you’re remotely connecting to the office from a beach in Bali, but not if the idea is to prevent people from seeing inside your house.
Until the feature fails and they get a glimpse of the "PHP for Dummies" book on your shelf.
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Before going into battle, George Washington deliberately exposed his entire army to smallpox, of all things, so that they would be inoculated against it!
Sounds like a pretty dumb thing to do.
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@topspin Not at all. It was a great move on his part, because it meant that they could then fight efficiently without having to worry about the disease crippling his army while on campaign.
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin Not at all. It was a great move on his part, because it meant that they could then fight efficiently without having to worry about the disease crippling his army while on campaign.
And the science gets done
And you make a neat gun
For the people who are
Still alive
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@Zerosquare said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gurth said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
That is a problem if you’re using it to make people believe you’re remotely connecting to the office from a beach in Bali, but not if the idea is to prevent people from seeing inside your house.
Until the feature fails and they get a glimpse of the "PHP for Dummies" book on your shelf.
In my experience (watching others on Zoom; I've never tried messing with my own background), it's more likely that part of your face will disappear into the background than that the real background will show through the virtual one. Also, good lighting seems to make a huge difference in how well the software is able to differentiate foreground and background.