Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...
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@pie_flavor said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
You thought Ned Wynert, one of the three primary quest-givers, was a minor character?
I might be misremembering his role. I only remember that he had some optional side quests that I skipped in the end, but apparently he appeared in main quests before and I simply forgot.
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@pie_flavor said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
irregardless
regardless.
irregardless is a double negative and not a valid word.
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@CodeJunkie said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@pie_flavor said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
irregardless
regardless.
irregardless is a double negative and not a valid word.
I never fully grasped what is the problem with double negatives and why people freak out about them. Yeah, it's thechnicly wrong, but does it really make sentences ambiguos or hard to understand?
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@MrL said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
I never fully grasped what is the problem with double negatives and why people freak out about them. Yeah, it's thechnicly wrong, but does it really make sentences ambiguos or hard to understand?
well, first of all the double negative used makes the entire sentence wrong.
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@MrL no, not really. And English isn't so dead set against them as grammar teachers like to think. They're a natural part of the language for emphasis.
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@CodeJunkie said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@MrL said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
I never fully grasped what is the problem with double negatives and why people freak out about them. Yeah, it's thechnicly wrong, but does it really make sentences ambiguos or hard to understand?
well, first of all the double negative used makes the entire sentence wrong.
Yes, technicly wrong. But does it make it nonsensical or hard to understand?
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
They're a natural part of the language for emphasis.
Or used because one is uneducated....but then that just gets into the territory of superiority of the learned over the unlearned...but whatever.
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@CodeJunkie said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@pie_flavor said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
irregardless
regardless.
irregardless is a double negative and not a valid word.
Which is the entire reason I use it.
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@MrL said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
Yes, technicly wrong. But does it make it nonsensical or hard to understand?
If you know it's wrong...it's distracting. Sure, I know what was trying to be said, but what's so bad about educating someone?
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@CodeJunkie said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@MrL said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
Yes, technicly wrong. But does it make it nonsensical or hard to understand?
If you know it's wrong...it's distracting.
This I can understand.
Are double negatives practically a problem? Still not sure.Sure, I know what was trying to be said, but what's so bad about educating someone?
On this forum? Absolutely nothing.
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@MrL said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
Are double negatives practically a problem? Still not sure.
Think about it from a code perspective and it's the same problem. You have to consciously unravel the logic, but in speech the end result is usually a sentence that's wrong. In code, it's just confusing, but could be technically correct.
EDIT: Communication should always be as a clear and concise as possible.
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@pie_flavor said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@dfdub You thought Ned Wynert, one of the three primary quest-givers, was a minor character?
Miners not minors – 00:15
— N Marti
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@error said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@pie_flavor said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@dfdub You thought Ned Wynert, one of the three primary quest-givers, was a minor character?
Miners not minors – 00:15
— N MartiHAHA, that scene cracks me up every time I watch this movie.
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@CodeJunkie said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
They're a natural part of the language for emphasis.
Or used because one is uneducated....but then that just gets into the territory of superiority of the learned over the unlearned...but whatever.
Or is ESL coming from a language like Spanish where double negatives are correct.
Nevertheless, people around here mostly use the word irregardless to trigger the sort of people who get triggered by the word irregardless.
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@CodeJunkie said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@MrL said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
Yes, technicly wrong. But does it make it nonsensical or hard to understand?
If you know it's wrong...it's distracting. Sure, I know what was trying to be said, but what's so bad about educating someone?
@error_bot define irregardless
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Merriam-Webster said:
irregardless
ir*re*gard*less \ˌir-i-ˈgärd-ləs\ adverbprobably blend of irrespective and regardlessusage(circa 1912): regardlessIrregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that “there is no such word.” There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.
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I guess it's been a while since we've had the prescriptivism vs descriptivism argument. Proceed.
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@error_bot said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
Merriam-Webster said:
irregardless
ir*re*gard*less \ˌir-i-ˈgärd-ləs\ adverbprobably blend of irrespective and regardlessusage(circa 1912): regardlessIrregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that “there is no such word.” There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.
irregardless = without without regard. Because both the prefix (ir) and suffix (less) mean, without.
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@CodeJunkie You're literally arguing with the dictionary. Also, who said language obeys logical rules?
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@error said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@CodeJunkie You're literally arguing with the dictionary. Also, who said language obeys logical rules?
No..."Use regardless instead."
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@error said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
I guess it's been a while since we've had the prescriptivism vs descriptivism argument. Proceed.
Reminder:
prescriptivism: the belief that language has a set of rules, in which usage can be correct or incorrect
descriptivism: the belief that language is an ever-evolving method of communication, where
the rules are made up and the points don't matterwe can only seek to describe how words are used, not how they should be usedIn particular, I believe any attempt to rigorously define a set of logical rules for language ends in a contradiction somewhere. Human language is not coherent as a system.
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@error said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@CodeJunkie You're literally arguing with the dictionary. Also, who said language obeys logical rules?
Natural languages are not formal logic engines. Neither, for that matter, is human thought. It's full of ambiguity, redundancy, emotional appeals, and other anti-logical constructions and that's a good thing.
Plus, lots of the "rules" of languages are zombies: undead creations of grammar teachers that never really were rules. Lots of very well educated, very accomplished writers and speakers violate them all the time to great effect.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
Lots of very well educated, very accomplished writers and speakers violate them all the time to great effect.
This is very true, but reminds me of a saying from my music theory studies: you have to learn the rules before you can break them. That is, there's an enormous difference between a master flaunting the rules and a novice butchering them.
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@error said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
Lots of very well educated, very accomplished writers and speakers violate them all the time to great effect.
This is very true, but reminds me of a saying from my music theory studies: you have to learn the rules before you can break them. That is, there's an enormous difference between a master flaunting the rules and a novice butchering them.
There's only doing it well and doing it poorly. Most of the rules are heuristics for doing it well, under restrictive assumptions. But they're taught as immutable, eternal truths instead.
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@Benjamin-Hall ITYM and
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
Lots of very well educated, very accomplished writers and speakers violate them all the time to great effect.
Oh yeah, and when I was in high school I hated being told that I could not violate the "rules", yet these particular people could...it made no sense to me and seemed very hypocritical.
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@CodeJunkie said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
irregardless is a double negative and not a valid word.
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@Dragoon said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@CodeJunkie said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
irregardless is a double negative and not a valid word.
never said it wasn't a word. The Merrian-Webster entry even says to use regardless instead. The whole point being that double negatives are frowned upon in the English language...
Take this sentence for instance "shoot man, I don't know nothin' about that!"...what you've really said is "I know something about that". What should have been said was either "I don't know anything about that" or "I know nothing about that" ...
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@error said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@CodeJunkie You're literally arguing with the dictionary. Also, who said language obeys logical rules?
Natural languages are not formal logic engines. Neither, for that matter, is human thought. It's full of ambiguity, redundancy, emotional appeals, and other anti-logical constructions and that's a good thing.
Plus, lots of the "rules" of languages are zombies: undead creations of grammar teachers that never really were rules. Lots of very well educated, very accomplished writers and speakers violate them all the time to great effect.
That may well be true, but that doesn't mean "there is no such thing as wrong."
"Could of" is wrong, using "it's" (no contraction) as a possessive pronoun is wrong, and so is "irregardless".
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@CodeJunkie said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
Take this sentence for instance "shoot man, I don't know nothin' about that!"...what you've really said is "I know something about that". What should have been said was either "I don't know anything about that" or "I know nothing about that" ...
And yet only a robot (less advanced than @Tsaukpaetra) would interpret it that way. The fact that you know that what was literally said is not what was intended to be said means that you were able to correctly interpret the thought the words convey. Whether or not it's proper usage is... not a very meaningful distinction.
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@error I frequently have arguments with my mother whenever I use a sentence with "None of the
$x
s are..." She misapprehends the situation and assumes I'm incorrectly matching "are" with "$x
s", and corrects me: "None of the$x
s is." I restate "None are" and she explains my alleged error and her rule: "None" is an apostrophe-less contraction for "not one", and "one" is singular, thus one uses the singular verb. I reply with my rule: "None" is synonymous with "zero" and "zero" is plural, thus one uses the plural verb. We continue to argue backwards and forwards; she's convinced she's right because prescriptivism and that's what she was taught (and of course she was taught correctly), and I'm convinced I'm right because descriptivism and even if my rule wasn't correct at the time (which she has yet to cite any authority besides herself that it isn't) it has become correct because that's how almost every person I know plus NPR speaks.According to my research, descriptivism would go "whatever man, you're both right" and take another hit off its bong, and prescriptivism isn't giving me an answer because since the early 1800's both interpretations have been in circulation as well as a third interpretation, "it depends," based on "none" meaning "not any" and "any" being in SP.
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@topspin said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
That may well be true, but that doesn't mean "there is no such thing as wrong."
When applied to language, "wrong" just means "in the minority of usage." It's not uncommon for wrong things to become right and for right things to become wrong in language, particularly over long periods of time.
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@CodeJunkie
: There are some languages where a double negative is interpreted as positive, and some languages where a double negative is interpreted as negative. But there are no languages where a double positive is interpreted as negative.
: *scoff* Yeah, right.
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@error said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@topspin said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
That may well be true, but that doesn't mean "there is no such thing as wrong."
When applied to language, "wrong" just means "in the minority of usage." It's not uncommon for wrong things to become right and for right things to become wrong in language, particularly over long periods of time.
And "wrong" is contextual. Wrong for a formal essay and wrong for casual conversation are different, and incompatible.
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@TwelveBaud said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
and some languages where a double negative is interpreted as negative
which ones? And why? Seems bad to me...and if a double negative is still a negative...then why use the double negative to begin with. It's just extra crap you have to filter out and it middies the language.
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@CodeJunkie said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@MrL said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
Are double negatives practically a problem? Still not sure.
Think about it from a code perspective and it's the same problem.
I don't look at language from code perspective, because natural language is not code.
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@MrL said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@CodeJunkie said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@MrL said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
Are double negatives practically a problem? Still not sure.
Think about it from a code perspective and it's the same problem.
I don't look at language from code perspective, because natural language is not code.
I completely agree on this point...but there are plenty of assholes that will insist that programming languages should be just like natural languages. Look how often the attempts have failed miserably.
EDIT: Was also pointing out the double negative issue in program logic.
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@CodeJunkie said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@TwelveBaud said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
and some languages where a double negative is interpreted as negative
which ones?
Polish, among others.
And why?
Why not?
It's just extra crap you have to filter out and it middies the language.
When it's natural for the language you don't have to filter anything out. It sounds right, meaning is obvious, nothing to filter or analyse.
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@CodeJunkie said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@TwelveBaud said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
and some languages where a double negative is interpreted as negative
which ones? And why? Seems bad to me...and if a double negative is still a negative...then why use the double negative to begin with. It's just extra crap you have to filter out and it middies the language.
In Spanish double negatives are not just allowed but required*. I've noticed a lot of people who natively speak Spanish struggle with this in English.
* in the prescriptivist sense
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@MrL said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
Polish, among others.
Oh...well, that explains a lot. Like screen doors on submarines for instance. :)
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@MrL said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
When it's natural for the language you don't have to filter anything out. It sounds right, meaning is obvious, nothing to filter or analyse.
It sounds right among peers who speak the same way.
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@error said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
In Spanish double negatives are not just allowed but required*.
To clarify, words with positive or negative connotation have to agree with each other when used in the same sentence. "Not ever" in English would be "no nunca" (not never) in Spanish.
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@CodeJunkie said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@MrL said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
When it's natural for the language you don't have to filter anything out. It sounds right, meaning is obvious, nothing to filter or analyse.
It sounds right among peers who speak the same way.
Meaning every person that speaks the language, yes.
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@MrL said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@CodeJunkie said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@MrL said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
When it's natural for the language you don't have to filter anything out. It sounds right, meaning is obvious, nothing to filter or analyse.
It sounds right among peers who speak the same way.
Meaning every person that speaks the language, yes.
No...not necessarily. If that were the case we wouldn't be having this conversation. irregardless is absolutely grating when I hear it....among other things.
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@CodeJunkie said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
m
iuddiesSince we are being pedantic about language, FTFY
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@CodeJunkie said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
irregardless is absolutely grating when I hear it....among other things.
On of the reasons that I say it with a big smirk on my face
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@CodeJunkie said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@MrL said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@CodeJunkie said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@MrL said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
When it's natural for the language you don't have to filter anything out. It sounds right, meaning is obvious, nothing to filter or analyse.
It sounds right among peers who speak the same way.
Meaning every person that speaks the language, yes.
No...not necessarily. If that were the case we wouldn't be having this conversation. irregardless is absolutely grating when I hear it....among other things.
The etymology of the word comes from an "improper" joining of two words; this does not, however, change the definition of the word. If the etymology of that word is grating to you... Hoo boy, you'd better not investigate the origins of many other English words.
If, instead, you find such things fascinating, I can recommend the podcast Lexicon Valley, where they explore all kinds of obscure and interesting word origins.
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@Dragoon said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@CodeJunkie said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
m
iuddiesSince we are being pedantic about language, FTFY
Good ol' type-o from typing too fast.
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@CodeJunkie said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@MrL said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@CodeJunkie said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@MrL said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
When it's natural for the language you don't have to filter anything out. It sounds right, meaning is obvious, nothing to filter or analyse.
It sounds right among peers who speak the same way.
Meaning every person that speaks the language, yes.
No...not necessarily. If that were the case we wouldn't be having this conversation. irregardless is absolutely grating when I hear it....among other things.
I was talking about languages that have double negatives.
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@error said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@CodeJunkie said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@MrL said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@CodeJunkie said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
@MrL said in Bad reviews? Gonna hafta wait a bit...:
When it's natural for the language you don't have to filter anything out. It sounds right, meaning is obvious, nothing to filter or analyse.
It sounds right among peers who speak the same way.
Meaning every person that speaks the language, yes.
No...not necessarily. If that were the case we wouldn't be having this conversation. irregardless is absolutely grating when I hear it....among other things.
The etymology of the word comes from an "improper" joining of two words; this does not, however, change the definition of the word. If the etymology of that word is grating to you... Hoo boy, you'd better not investigate the origins of many other English words.
If, instead, you find such things fascinating, I can recommend the podcast Lexicon Valley, where they explore all kinds of obscure and interesting word origins.
Oh, I know...I like etymology.