The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread
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@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@lolwhat said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
Homeschooling would be an alternative, wouldn't it?
Not a thing on the other side of the pond.
I figured as much.
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@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
I don't really know the laws around here as well as I thought.
Does anyone?
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@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
Edit: Seems to be legal in quite a few European countries, though. TIL I don't really know the laws around here as well as I thought.
In Poland, it's deep within "well yes but actually no" territory. My mom wanted to homeschool my sister, but they needed a permission from the dean of her current school. And she really really really didn't want to give the permission.
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@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
In Poland, it's deep within "well yes but actually no" territory.
As it probably should be. If you have a very good reason (such as a medical one) for homeschooling, you should be allowed to. But insane or inept parents as well as parents who want to ideologically indoctrinate their children should be kept far away from that possibility. So it's most likely better to require a kid to go to school if you're not convinced homeschooling is beneficial.
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@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
In Poland, it's deep within "well yes but actually no" territory. My mom wanted to homeschool my sister, but they needed a permission from the dean of her current school. And she really really really didn't want to give the permission.
Wait. The have to get permission specifically from a person who would find giving that permission to be against their personal/professional interests?
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@Mason_Wheeler said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
against their personal/professional interests
How would it be against their personal interest?
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@dfdub By reducing the number of students under their authority.
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@Mason_Wheeler said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
By reducing the number of students under their authority.
I'm pretty sure that heavily regulated homeschooling means that the school district would be responsible either way, so that argument probably doesn't make much sense.
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@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
parents who want to ideologically indoctrinate their children
Sincere question: How do you differentiate between the nefarious parents who want to ideologically indoctrinate their children and the virtuous parents who want to prevent public schools from ideologically indoctrinating their children?
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@Mason_Wheeler said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
virtuous parents who want to prevent public schools from ideologically indoctrinating their children
Honestly, the mere fact that they suspect public schools to conspire to indoctrinate their children would ring alarm bells in my mind.
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@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
If you have a very good reason (such as a medical one) for homeschooling, you should be allowed to.
Actually, if a child cannot attend school for medical reasons, there's another system in place - individual education. The school teachers go to the child's home/daily care facility and give lessons there. Homeschooling is there only for this sovereign citizen kind who don't trust public schools are capable of providing adequate education.
And most of the time, they're not wrong.
@Mason_Wheeler said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
In Poland, it's deep within "well yes but actually no" territory. My mom wanted to homeschool my sister, but they needed a permission from the dean of her current school. And she really really really didn't want to give the permission.
Wait. The have to get permission specifically from a person who would find giving that permission to be against their personal/professional interests?
Welcome to Poland. Did you know a gun permit requires an approval from a local police commandant, and they're free to refuse it without a reason?
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@dfdub No "conspiring" necessary. Just basic awareness of some of the weird stuff going on in some public schools these days.
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@Mason_Wheeler said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
Just basic awareness of some of the weird stuff going on in some public schools these days.
Care to elaborate? I'd say the fact that public schools have a large body of teachers who risk being fired if they make overtly political or (anti-)religious statements in their classrooms makes successful indoctrination pretty unlikely.
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@dfdub those same teachers are at the same risk of being fired if they REFUSE to make political or (anti-)religious statements required by their managers or supervising institutions. There was a huge pro-choice protest in Poland a few years ago, and I've heard of a few teachers being fired for NOT participating.
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@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
those same teachers are at the same risk of being fired if they REFUSE to make political or (anti-)religious statements required by their managers or supervising institutions.
I guess my mistake is assuming a working education system and sensible legal framework, then. I'm not from Eastern Europe, so I can only speak from my personal experience. Such a firing would be highly illegal where I grew up. Whoever tried such a stunt would quickly lose their own job.
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@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
Such a firing would be highly illegal where I grew up.
It's illegal here as well alright. But the wheels of justice turn slowly and not so surely.
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@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
But insane or inept parents as well as parents who want to ideologically indoctrinate their children should be kept far away from that possibility.
Because it's only fair that the inept teachers who want to ideologically indoctrinate others' children get first go.
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@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Mason_Wheeler said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
By reducing the number of students under their authority.
I'm pretty sure that heavily regulated homeschooling means that the school district would be responsible either way, so that argument probably doesn't make much sense.
It makes total sense in the world of bureaucratic budgets.
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@boomzilla said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
Because it's only fair that the inept teachers who want to ideologically indoctrinate others' children get first go.
In principle, which organization would you assume to be less biased and have more checks and balances: A large school with many teachers who teach the same students, which also is in the public eye? Or one to two people who happen to be the parents of the children?
And then we haven't even talked about qualifications yet.
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@Mason_Wheeler said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
How do you differentiate between the nefarious parents who want to ideologically indoctrinate their children and the virtuous parents who want to prevent public schools from ideologically indoctrinating their children?
One person's education is another person's indoctrination. Just look at the evolution / creationism schism for an example.
I would expect that material taught at public schools has more visibility, and thus undergoes more scrutiny and criticism by third parties, than what the parents decide to teach their children. There's not much more you can do in that regard.
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@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@boomzilla said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
Because it's only fair that the inept teachers who want to ideologically indoctrinate others' children get first go.
In principle, which organization would you assume to be less biased and have more checks and balances: A large school with many teachers who teach the same students, which also is in the public eye? Or one to two people who happen to be the parents of the children?
Platonic school systems are irrelevant. Public school systems in the US seem nearly impervious to public pressure in this sort of thing, and I've heard my kids coming home with nonsense put into their heads that we've had to weed out. Here's a particularly egregious (and institutionalized!) example:
https://freebeacon.com/issues/seattle-public-schools-considering-social-justice-math-curriculum/
Who knows if it will go through, but the fact that it ever got taken seriously should be a ginormous red flag.
And then we haven't even talked about qualifications yet.
Nor have we talked about results, where homeschooled kids tend to outperform kids from public schools. I don't doubt there's a lot of self selection going on there, but that just argues against the point you were making earlier in this post.
There are a lot of things going on here to cause all of that, but blanket assumptions that "the professionals" obviously are superior is as silly as claiming that you shouldn't cook your own dinner when there's a mid market chain restaurant available. After all, they have a corporate structure to guide them on their food and they're regulated by the local health department!
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@boomzilla said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
I've heard my kids coming home with nonsense put into their heads that we've had to weed out.
But you've been able to weed them out. If a homeschooled kid got nonsense put in their head by their parent(s), there's nobody providing a different perspective.
Public school don't prevent parents from parenting their children as they see fit, but they can very much help children whose parents have extreme views by providing different, (hopefully) peer-reviewed information. They make it much harder for a child to grow up isolated and much harder not to notice child neglect or abuse.
For all these reasons, I think mandatory education in public schools is much better than the alternative in general, even if some ideas implemented in the public school system are sometimes outright moronic.
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@boomzilla said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
Here's a particularly egregious (and institutionalized!) example:
Did you RTFA? If you dig under the headline (headline misleading, who cares) they're trying to teach math as something other than 'apply this algorithm to this class of problem correctly', something more like 'what are we actually trying to learn here, and what might be good approaches'. You know, like what you need to do math other than calculating the tip.
@some teachers said
The themes include how mathematical theories are "rooted in the ancient histories of people and empires of color," how contributions of communities of color to the field are ignored, and how learning math can be "an act of liberation."
Historical fact, historical fact, marketing gobbledegook, respectively.
Hell, we had someone on this forum like two weeks ago arguing about 'arabic numerals' and how 'those savages' never produced anything. Clearly the educational system has some blind spots.
Except for the fact someone said 'social justice' and you broke out in hives, what is the actual problem here?
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@Mason_Wheeler said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@Gąska said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
In Poland, it's deep within "well yes but actually no" territory. My mom wanted to homeschool my sister, but they needed a permission from the dean of her current school. And she really really really didn't want to give the permission.
Wait. The have to get permission specifically from a person who would find giving that permission to be against their personal/professional interests?
That happens here too, bruh. Some states are much more permissive than others when it comes to homeschooling.
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@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@boomzilla said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
I've heard my kids coming home with nonsense put into their heads that we've had to weed out.
But you've been able to weed them out. If a homeschooled kid got nonsense put in their head by their parent(s), there's nobody providing a different perspective.
So what? The parents still have the ability to talk to the kids.
Public school don't prevent parents from parenting their children as they see fit, but they can very much help children whose parents have extreme views by providing different, (hopefully) peer-reviewed information. They make it much harder for a child to grow up
isolated and much harder not to notice child neglect or abuse.Yeah, they can do that, and that's a valuable service. I went to public schools and so did my children. None of that is a good reason to do away with the option to homeschool.
For all these reasons, I think mandatory education in public schools is much better than the alternative in general, even if some ideas implemented in the public school system are sometimes outright moronic.
You mean reasons that you thought up yourself and didn't compare to real world results?
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@AyGeePlus said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
Except for the fact someone said 'social justice' and you broke out in hives, what is the actual problem here?
It's a math class, not sociology
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@AyGeePlus said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@boomzilla said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
Here's a particularly egregious (and institutionalized!) example:
Did you RTFA? If you dig under the headline (headline misleading, who cares) they're trying to teach math as something other than 'apply this algorithm to this class of problem correctly', something more like 'what are we actually trying to learn here, and what might be good approaches'. You know, like what you need to do math other than calculating the tip.
Sure, that's one component of it, and for sure that'll be the thrust of the Motte and Bailey on this.
@some teachers said
The themes include how mathematical theories are "rooted in the ancient histories of people and empires of color," how contributions of communities of color to the field are ignored, and how learning math can be "an act of liberation."
Historical fact, historical fact, marketing gobbledegook, respectively.
Hell, we had someone on this forum like two weeks ago arguing about 'arabic numerals' and how 'those savages' never produced anything. Clearly the educational system has some blind spots.
Yes, and this is kind of like a different version of that.
Except for the fact someone said 'social justice' and you broke out in hives, what is the actual problem here?
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@boomzilla said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
You mean reasons that you thought up yourself and didn't compare to real world results?
I've made a bunch of friends in college in the maths courses who later became maths teachers. I hear stories every day about them having to help children from difficult households in various ways or at least referring them to the correct people and authorities. I'm not making this shit up. Every week, I hear stories that solidify my view that it's incredibly important to make sure that every teenager has trusted adults to talk to who are not their parents or in any way related to them.
Even if public schools had no other benefit, that's an important role they fill.
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@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
it's incredibly important to make sure that every teenager has trusted adults to talk to who are not their parents or in any way related to them
Sure, but how does homeschooling prevent that?
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@hungrier said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
It's a math class, not sociology
If I learn about Fibonacci when learning about his numbers, I can hear the name al-Khwārizmī when learning about algorithms. What exactly is going to happen here?
@boomzilla said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
I don't have a bottomless source of outrage. Why do I care about this?
How are you even going to 'correct' this silliness later on? al-Khwārizmī is verifiable historical fact. The Hollerith machine is verifiable historical fact.
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@lolwhat said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
Sure, but how does homeschooling prevent that?
Are you feeling ok? If instead of sending kids to a public building filled with trusted adults every day, you didn't do that...?
'not introducing kids to trusted adults decreases trusted adult interaction' is as simple as I can go.
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@lolwhat said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
it's incredibly important to make sure that every teenager has trusted adults to talk to who are not their parents or in any way related to them
Sure, but how does homeschooling prevent that?
That's a straw man. Obviously, it doesn't.
But you can bet your ass that those crazy parents and those with extremist political and religious views would be the first to keep their children at home if they could. And if you don't allow everyone to homeschool without oversight, they cannot harm their children as much.
And before I get confronted with another straw man: I'm explicitly not generalizing here, of course the majority of parents who choose homeschooling aren't nutjobs.
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@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@boomzilla said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
You mean reasons that you thought up yourself and didn't compare to real world results?
I've made a bunch of friends in college in the maths courses who later became maths teachers. I hear stories every day about them having to help children from difficult households in various ways or at least referring them to the correct people and authorities. I'm not making this shit up. Every week, I hear stories that solidify my view that it's incredibly important to make sure that every teenager has trusted adults to talk to who are not their parents or in any way related to them.
Yes, of course, there are lots of kids like that. What does that have to do with homeschooling? Do you think those kinds of households are the sort who would homeschool?
Even if public schools had no other benefit, that's an important role they fill.
No one said they didn't.
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@boomzilla said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
Do you think those kinds of households are the sort who would homeschool?
Some of them, yes. Without going into further detail, as an example, think of the kind of people who would force their children into marriages to people from their own culture who they've never met.
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@AyGeePlus said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
If I learn about Fibonacci when learning about his numbers, I can hear the name al-Khwārizmī when learning about algorithms. What exactly is going to happen here?
What's going to happen is that instead of being taught how to do math (arithmetic, fractions, algebra, etc) they're going to be taught to *scrolls up* "identify how math has been and continues to be used to oppress and marginalize people and communities of colo[u]r"
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@AyGeePlus said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
I don't have a bottomless source of outrage. Why do I care about this?
Obviously you don't. That's kind of my feeling towards people homeschooling their kids. Why should I care that someone here trusts the sorts of minds that come up with that drivel over loving parents interested in taking the time and making the effort to educate their children?
How are you even going to 'correct' this silliness later on? al-Khwārizmī is verifiable historical fact. The Hollerith machine is verifiable historical fact.
What does any of that have to do with talking about "oppression?" I think you may be deliberately ignoring what's going on here, including not reading the words in the image I posted.
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@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@lolwhat said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
it's incredibly important to make sure that every teenager has trusted adults to talk to who are not their parents or in any way related to them
Sure, but how does homeschooling prevent that?
That's a straw man. Obviously, it doesn't.
Yes, that's my point: you're making strawmen!
But you can bet your ass that those crazy parents and those with extremist political and religious views would be the first to keep their children at home if they could. And if you don't allow everyone to homeschool without oversight, they cannot harm their children as much.
And before I get confronted with another straw man: I'm explicitly not generalizing here, of course the majority of parents who choose homeschooling aren't nutjobs.
Sorry, what strawmen have you been confronted with?
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@boomzilla said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
Sorry, what strawmen have you been confronted with?
To be exact, @lolwhat was creating a false dichotomy. Read my post and his reply again. @AyGeePlus reacted to that as well, although a bit less diplomatically.
TBH, I feel this thread is getting a little garage-y. You both seem to be deliberately missing my point and trying to bait me into arguing that all homeschooling is necessarily bad, which I never said and never would. I'm merely arguing that in general, it's beneficial for children not to allow their parents to pull them out of public schools because they feel like it.
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@boomzilla said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
What does any of that have to do with talking about "oppression?" I think you may be deliberately ignoring what's going on here, including not reading the words in the image I posted.
I'm making an allusion here. Let me be explicit and very clear: We don't learn about arabic mathematicians because of oppression. We don't learn about IBM's role in the holocaust because it's easier not to. We should learn about those things.
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@AyGeePlus said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
We don't learn about arabic mathematicians because
of oppressionit's a math class. We don't learn about IBM's role in the holocaust because it'seasier not toa math class. We should learn about those things in history class or some appropriate setting.
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@hungrier If I could go back through my math class and strip out all the 'fun historical facts' I had to deal with I would love that.
Currently we have these hybrid classes for 'context' and 'engagement' but the hybrid parts are all whitewashed. Galileo pushing shit off towers and fibonacci thinking about rabbits. If I could have pure math that would be lovely, and we could learn history in history and math in math. That has a pleasing symmetry.
Not to mention History doesn't teach those things either (IME because history was mostly the romans over and over again, which has other different obvious problems, but there you go).
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@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@boomzilla said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
Sorry, what strawmen have you been confronted with?
To be exact, @lolwhat was creating a false dichotomy. Read my post and his reply again. @AyGeePlus reacted to that as well, although a bit less diplomatically.
Sorry, still not getting that. The context was you making arguments against homeschooling, and he asked how that point did so.
TBH, I feel this thread is getting a little garage-y.
I'm afraid so, too.
You both seem to be deliberately missing my point and trying to bait me into arguing that all homeschooling is necessarily bad, which I never said and never would.
Well, in the sense that you'd already basically stated that, I was asking you to justify your assertion.
I'm merely arguing that in general, it's beneficial for children not to allow their parents to pull them out of public schools because they feel like it.
Yes, that's what I understood you to say before, and I think you've done a very poor job backing that up, except where you've pointed out more specific examples, some of which I've agreed with and I think self selection mostly takes care of that problem.
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@AyGeePlus said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@boomzilla said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
What does any of that have to do with talking about "oppression?" I think you may be deliberately ignoring what's going on here, including not reading the words in the image I posted.
I'm making an allusion here. Let me be explicit and very clear: We don't learn about arabic mathematicians because of oppression. We don't learn about IBM's role in the holocaust because it's easier not to. We should learn about those things.
Yes, I get what you're saying. What I'm saying is that you're not addressing the proposal in a substantive way by saying that stuff. However, you haven't made a good argument that you should learn about that in math class, aside from hearing names and stuff of the people who invented them, but that's more of an aside than a major point of a lesson.
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@boomzilla said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
self selection mostly takes care of that problem.
There are good reasons for homeschooling (medical, practical, blah blah the obvious ones) but any framework that makes it easy opens it up to nutbars and abusers.
Nutbars don't self-select out of the problem, nutbars self-select into the problem.
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@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@boomzilla said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
Because it's only fair that the inept teachers who want to ideologically indoctrinate others' children get first go.
In principle, which organization would you assume to be less biased and have more checks and balances: A large school with many teachers who teach the same students, which also is in the public eye? Or one to two people who happen to be the parents of the children?
That's why most homeschoolers don't do it because of ideology, but because of quality of education. Because in principle, a parent cares more about their own child's education than an organization where aggregate results directly affect everyone's bonuses but individual achievements of students don't.
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@AyGeePlus said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@hungrier If I could go back through my math class and strip out all the 'fun historical facts' I had to deal with I would love that.
Currently we have these hybrid classes for 'context' and 'engagement' but the hybrid parts are all whitewashed. Galileo pushing shit off towers and fibonacci thinking about rabbits. If I could have pure math that would be lovely, and we could learn history in history and math in math. That has a pleasing symmetry.
Not to mention History doesn't teach those things either (IME because history was mostly the romans over and over again, which has other different obvious problems, but there you go).
YMMV, but when I learned about Fibonacci I don't think the discussion of the name went beyond "some Italian dude centuries ago". I've never heard the part about rabbits. And FWIW I recall having learned that algebra got its name from Arabic, but just like Fibonacci it wasn't explored in detail.
My high school history class had a unit on World War II (and, naturally, Canada's involvement in it), and I think it did mention IBM's involvement
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@AyGeePlus said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
@boomzilla said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
self selection mostly takes care of that problem.
There are good reasons for homeschooling (medical, practical, blah blah the obvious ones) but any framework that makes it easy opens it up to nutbars and abusers.
That's better than the alternative. Just like legal alcohol opens it up to abusers.
Nutbars don't self-select out of the problem, nutbars self-select into the problem.
If there was a pattern of evidence of homeschoolers receiving inferior education, I'd worry more about this.
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@dfdub said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
But you can bet your ass that those crazy parents and those with extremist political and religious views would be the first to keep their children at home if they could.
Of those children helped by the teachers you know that you mentioned, how many have parents that are crazy or with extremist political and religious views, compared to just neglectful?
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@hungrier said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
Canada's
I've found the explanatory variable, although I'm kind of surprised. I assumed America's hat was just as bad.
@boomzilla said in The Official GDPR Lawsuit thread:
That's better than the alternative.
It varies a lot place to place, but places where you have to show a lesson plan and periodically check in with the educational system so you're not falling behind provide a huge barrier to nutbars and almost nothing to motivated parents.
It shouldn't be impossible, but it should be effort. We can have the best of both worlds.
