Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
It's just like when you read a horror story and you can basically anticipate what's going to happen as you reach a particular page. And expected result is nothing surprising.
@error_bot tvtropes genre savvy
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TV Tropes said in https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenreSavvy :
Genre Savvy
Angela Moore: This doesn't make any sense. Shawn Hunter: It does if you've seen as many horror movies as I have. This is classic. The locked door, the scary janitor, the bloody warning and... our soon to be first victim. [everyone looks at Kenny] Kenny: Me? Why me? Cory Matthews: Well Kenny, it's certainly not going to be any of us! A Genre Savvy character doesn't necessarily know they're in a story, but they do know of stories like their own and what worked in them and what didn't. They may attempt to apply the lessons they've learned from movies, books, or other fiction to their own situation, or they may restrict themselves to snarky asides and observations. The exact opposite of Genre Blindness.
For cases when a Genre Savvy character attempts to apply the tropes of a different genre of story to their own situation, see Wrong Genre Savvy. When a person becomes too Genre Savvy for their own good and offs themselves, see Death by Genre Savviness. If a character uses his Genre Savviness just to make humorous observations, he's a Meta Guy. When characters are not consciously Genre Savvy but regularly act within the limitations of the genre they're in anyway, they are Functional Genre Savvy. If a character acts like a Genre Blind person due to their Genre Savviness, this is Contractual Genre Blindness. Compare with Medium Awareness where the character knows that they're in a story and what medium they are in. May result in You Watch Too Much X.
Not to be confused with a character who has observed what works and what doesn't in their own world, which is Taught by Experience.
For specific tips on surviving the world of fiction, see The Universal Genre Savvy Guide.
(via https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/elastic_search_result.php?new_search=true&q=genre+savvy&page_type=all)
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@Tsaukpaetra said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
The point of "Scratch scam" is that Scratch is not a magical tool that gives you motivation to pick up a profession.
I don't recall anyone saying this. Source?
At least not on the first page, for the first page of the thread everyone brought out that same point I mentioned there. It's already kinda dubious in the first place, but then @pie_flavor had to unleash that post, and then we're entering the "let's at the newest blakeyrat" stage.
And yet I didn't actually say anything like that there either. :shoulder-alien:
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@topspin said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
this whole "this game is a silver bullet to make everyone rockstar coders" claim hasn't actually been made by anyone.
The fact that the game itself exists, and there are media coverage talking about the exact point means it has already been made. Otherwise why would Ubisoft make such a game? Since when have you seen AAA game companies bothered enough to make side games that is incredibly niche to their audience, doesn't make any profit, and clearly is of very little importance to them?
Also, the Scratch thing has been going on for at least a decade. It's not like Ubisoft is the first adopter of Scratch.
You seem to have forgotten how to read for a third time in a row. The claim you need to disprove isn't that 'nobody said the game had anything to do with coding', or that 'nobody said the game taught you the basics of programming', but that 'nobody said the game is a silver bullet to make everyone rockstar coders, nor even anything that that could be considered hyperbole for'.
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
OK... umm... why is everyone calling this thing in this game "Scratch"? Because it sure looks like Blockly to me...
Because @_P_ is illiterate, and we're mostly talking about him and his moronic points rather than the article.
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@anonymous234 said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@boomzilla said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@anonymous234 said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
Imagine a smart person who fully understands imperative programming (even the complex graph search algorithms), but has zero experience with anything else. Imagine them in front of Android Studio trying to figure it out so they can write a simple app.
OK, but what does that have to do with kids? Someone has missed the point of Scratch, but I don't think it's Scratch.
Kids use Scratch, they learn types and simple algorithms and are able to make the Rabbids solve levels. Kids now have basic programming skills.
Kids are slightly older now and want more. But there is no slightly-more-complex "Rabbids Coding". There is no environment that will let them use those skills to make a very simple Windows or Android or web program (there probably are but nobody knows about them).
The next popular thing up is Python, and Python is too hard. Kids get discouraged and forget the whole thing.Because we have not learned the lesson from Scratch, we have 25 variations of Scratch but no Scratch+1, Scratch+2, Scratch+3.
Is what I was trying to say.
Wouldn't be that hard. JetBrains MPS has everything you'd need to make it in a few weekends.
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@aitap said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
and allowed me to write a program to open the CD tray every 11 minutes, which I had secretly dreamt of writing for years.
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@anonymous234 said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
There is no environment that will let them use those skills to make a very simple Windows or Android or web program (there probably are but nobody knows about them).
There are environments that let them use some of those skills at least, just not all of them.
That's basically the difference between school and real life regardless of subject.
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
teeangers
I approve this mispelling.
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@anonymous234 said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
Because we have not learned the lesson from Scratch, we have 25 variations of Scratch but no Scratch+1, Scratch+2, Scratch+3.
Is what I was trying to say.That's a good point. (which I suspect @_P_ tried to get across and maybe failed)
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@Zecc said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@anonymous234 said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
Because we have not learned the lesson from Scratch, we have 25 variations of Scratch but no Scratch+1, Scratch+2, Scratch+3.
Is what I was trying to say.That's a good point. (which I suspect @_P_ tried to get across and maybe failed)
And the best part is, of course, whenever a new variations of Scratch comes up lots of people and press are like, "oh my god this new thing's gonna teach more kids at coding" for the umpteenth time. It's quite like beating a dead horse that maybe isn't dead, but gonna beat it anyway because reasons.
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
OK... umm... why is everyone calling this thing in this game "Scratch"? Because it sure looks like Blockly to me...
Business speaking they are the same product in the block-based programming field because they barely differentiate from each other, except for the type of runtime and the blocks available. And every one of them only supports procedural paradigm.
Your point is technically right, but it doesn't matter in practice , since we call products in a field by a specific brand a lot of times. Like, tide pods for laundry deterrent pods.
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@Zecc said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@anonymous234 said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
Because we have not learned the lesson from Scratch, we have 25 variations of Scratch but no Scratch+1, Scratch+2, Scratch+3.
Is what I was trying to say.That's a good point. (which I suspect @_P_ tried to get across and maybe failed)
And the best part is, of course, whenever a new variations of Scratch comes up lots of people and press are like, "oh my god this new thing's gonna teach more kids at coding" for the umpteenth time. It's quite like beating a dead horse that maybe isn't dead, but gonna beat it anyway because reasons.
It may be the umpteenth time you've seen it, but to kids it's new and fun and exciting.
You probably think music peaked when you were a teenager, too.
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@error said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
but to kids it's new and fun and exciting
Your point? Everything is "new and fun and exciting" to kids. It has nothing to do with reinventing someone's Scratch project for the umpteenth time.
I bet you're also the one who writes shitty programming tasks with unclear description and weak tests to coders new to algorithm platforms and justifies your acts with "but newbies all got to learn at some point", then accusing the other side for being "elitist snobs". Because I've actually seen these people and they're fucking morons.
@error_bot xkcd standards
@error said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
You probably think music peaked when you were a teenager, too.
Nope, try again
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
I bet you're also the one who writes shitty programming tasks with unclear description and weak tests to coders new to algorithm platforms and justifies your acts with "but newbies all got to learn at some point", then accusing the other side for being "elitist snobs"
Nope, try again. I'm not in education.
I'm just not a curmudgeon who points at a game for 8 year olds and scoffs at how derivative it is.
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Oh, and we already have actually usable products in this field, but it's not block-based, but node-based GUI programming like those seen in LabVIEW, Blender and Unreal Engine. And even that's a hassle because anything slightly complicated becomes a literal bowl of spaghetti code. Their main appeal is for designers, non-coders, alike to at least assemble some kind of stuff that sort of work.
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@error said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
I'm just not a curmudgeon who points at a game for 8 year olds and scoffs at how derivative it is.
And do you realize you all are also pointing at a game for 8 year olds and praises how non-bad Scratch is?
In fact, do you realize that the game itself is made by adults for 8yos? How can anyone other than 8yos know what is being made is objectively better for 8yos? So any kind of conclusions or reportings not coming from actual 8yos would be , which makes what I'm doing not any worse. And that's my
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@_P_ Now give us your review of the thrilling novel Go Dog, Go.
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@_P_ The biggest complaint you seem to have is that Scratch only teaches the basic, rudimentary concepts. No shit. That's the whole point.
I don't know if you've ever met or been a child, or for that matter, a human being, but we don't just download a skill to our brains like in The Matrix. It's learned gradually, incrementally, piece by piece, as we grow and study and practice. It takes a long time to git gud. This is specifically targeting kids who just started that journey. It's exactly what it should be: an introduction!
You complain that there's a lack of intermediate pedagogical material - hell, I've found that to be the case for most skills. Most books on Music Theory I pick up are either way too simple or way too advanced for me. That doesn't mean that there are too many Music Theory 101 textbooks, and that we should stop printing them because it's all been said before. There are always people who are just finding a subject for the first time in their life. This presents the subject matter to kids in an easily accessible way, just hard enough to pique their interest in the subject without being too hard to scare them away.
In other words, it's doing exactly what it should do.
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@error said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
The biggest complaint you seem to have is that Scratch only teaches the basic, rudimentary concepts. No shit. That's the whole point.
It's a corollary to the fact that we have a million Scratch projects that only does Scratch and no more. For example. every logic gate game out there does the same 'NAND gate to CPU" tech tree path, which gets really boring after trying one or two because I already know all the steps already. Okay, you showed how to build a basic CPU out of logic gates, but what's next? Are you telling me the entire point of logic gates are building basic, toy CPU with pretty much the exact same design in every one of these games?
@error said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
That doesn't mean that there are too many Music Theory 101 textbooks, and that we should stop printing them because it's all been said before.
So that's why there are so many (shitty) monad tutorials!
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
How can anyone other than 8yos know what is being made is objectively better for 8yos?
Study? Experience? Talking with (or possibly even employing) child psychologists? Having 8-year-olds play-test the game?
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
Study? Experience?
There are very few studies who actually measure if Scratch is actually useful since everyone just takes what MIT Media Lab says for granted. And results are not conclusive at all. For example, one study concludes that it doesn't make 10-12yo students feel more obligated at programming. One study concludes that it induces less anxiety and improves learning achievement for low performance students. There are also studies that claim Scratch is actually helpful.
But the problem is, most of them rely on surveys and interviews, and they don't have a control group, so it doesn't really answer the core question of "is Scratch useful" (after all, you might be able to make the same effect using something else as your tool). The even better part is that at least a few papers reads either like promotion to their own toys/projects built on top of Scratch, or a whole bunch of speculations disguised as analysis. It's really dodgy, and at least for the funding for these research departments, it's actually a scam.
@Mason_Wheeler said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
Talking with (or possibly even employing) child psychologists? Having 8-year-olds play-test the game?
Now you're really assuming they've actually done, and documented these things.
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
Now you're really assuming they've actually done, and documented these things.
Did you even read the abbr text?
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
Now you're really assuming they've actually done, and documented these things.
Did you even read the abbr text?
Yes, and I think you're still putting too much of an expectation to not assume they haven't done that at all. Most Scratch projects barely get any useful feedbacks, and I doubt anyone except the research groups actually document the feedback they get and release it somewhere. Otherwise why aren't we seeing the testimonies in the wild? You know, the stuff that would really attract the eye-balls for the media?
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@Tsaukpaetra said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
the golden rules of WTDWTF?
Quote anyone actually saying that!
You just quoted me saying that.
Oh? Ok then.
The golden rules of WTDWTF: Fuck EVERYONE!
In my teens, that'd probably sound like a fun thing. But now it just sounds like a lot of work.
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
laundry deterrent pods.
I don't need a deterrent to avoid laundry. I can avoid it on my own.
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
Oh, and we already have actually usable products in this field, but it's not block-based, but node-based GUI programming like those seen in LabVIEW, Blender and Unreal Engine. And even that's a hassle because anything slightly complicated becomes a literal bowl of spaghetti code. Their main appeal is for designers, non-coders, alike to at least assemble some kind of stuff that sort of work.
This was the kind of thing I was misnaming as "workflow diagrams" earlier.
Node-based "let the data flow through you" thingamagibs.
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@Mason_Wheeler said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
OK... umm... why is everyone calling this thing in this game "Scratch"? Because it sure looks like Blockly to me...
Business speaking they are the same product in the block-based programming field because they barely differentiate from each other, except for the type of runtime and the blocks available. And every one of them only supports procedural paradigm.
Your point is technically right, but it doesn't matter in practice , since we call products in a field by a specific brand a lot of times. Like, tide pods for laundry deterrent pods.
Business speaking Visual Basic is the same product as COBOL, by your logic.
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@Zecc said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@anonymous234 said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
Because we have not learned the lesson from Scratch, we have 25 variations of Scratch but no Scratch+1, Scratch+2, Scratch+3.
Is what I was trying to say.That's a good point. (which I suspect @_P_ tried to get across and maybe failed)
And the best part is, of course, whenever a new variations of Scratch comes up lots of people and press are like, "oh my god this new thing's gonna teach more kids at coding" for the umpteenth time. It's quite like beating a dead horse that maybe isn't dead, but gonna beat it anyway because reasons.
Did you know? There are new kids all the time!
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@error said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
I'm just not a curmudgeon who points at a game for 8 year olds and scoffs at how derivative it is.
And do you realize you all are also pointing at a game for 8 year olds and praises how non-bad Scratch is?
Honestly, we're mostly focused on pointing at you and laughing at this point.
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
Are you telling me...
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@boomzilla said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@error said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
I'm just not a curmudgeon who points at a game for 8 year olds and scoffs at how derivative it is.
And do you realize you all are also pointing at a game for 8 year olds and praises how non-bad Scratch is?
Honestly, we're mostly focused on pointing at you and laughing at this point.
And why do you think I would care about that?
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This thread hurts my brain.
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@boomzilla said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@error said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
I'm just not a curmudgeon who points at a game for 8 year olds and scoffs at how derivative it is.
And do you realize you all are also pointing at a game for 8 year olds and praises how non-bad Scratch is?
Honestly, we're mostly focused on pointing at you and laughing at this point.
And why do you think I would care about that?
I think it's exactly what you're trying to do, honestly. Now, if you keep it up for a decade then I'll put you in the bucket and grant that you're legitimately and honestly weird.
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@topspin said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
This thread hurts my brain.
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@remi said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
No, that's his cousin . There's a special one in every family.
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
In fact, do you realize that the game itself is made by adults for 8yos?
If you think that's shocking, wait 'til you hear who writes children's books
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@hungrier said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
In fact, do you realize that the game itself is made by adults for 8yos?
If you think that's shocking, wait 'til you hear who writes children's books
And we all know Aesop and Anderson tales are pretty fucked up. No need to re-iterate that again.
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@Zecc said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
"let the data flow through you"
Unf. So much better than letting hate flow through you!
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@Benjamin-Hall said in WTF Bites:
Whatever you do, don't do this: implement the "99 bottles of beer" song in SQL.
What about Scratch?
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
Apparently Scratch also solves people's own mental problems?
Like the mental block keeping them from getting over the hurdle of bridging the connection between organized text and a computer's actions? Yes, that's exactly what it was designed to do.
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@_P_ said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
@topspin Where's the WTF? Scratch is not the magical tool to solve your own problem of having difficulty to find motivation to pick up a profession. That's, well, your own mental issue, and you need to work it out yourself instead of relying on some magical weight-losing pills to do fantasy work for you.
Do you mean that people shouldn't use tools to help them with their issues, even if the tools were designed specifically for those issues?
that entire tl;dr story basically reads
E_DOES_NOT_COMPUTE
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@aitap said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
a program to open the CD tray every 11 minutes
That's the sort of thing that makes learning programming fun!
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@error said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
You probably think music peaked when you were a teenager, too.
Nah, not for me. I think music peaked somewhere between 100 and 250 years before I was a teenager.
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@djls45 That's impossible, Kanye West - Lift Yourself only came out last year
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@anonymous234 said in Newest Scratch scam: Ubisoft release a Scratch "learn coding" game:
But there is no slightly-more-complex "Rabbids Coding".
That's wrong, but the software that implements such things is very expensive and usually very specific to an application area. The issue is that the space of bits to build things with (and what those mean) together with the complexity of interconnect semantics, that grows exponentially. It's hard enough to make a textual programming language that supports them, let alone a graphical language; graphical programming languages are orders of magnitude more complex to support than text (at least with the state of general tooling).
Look up graphical workflow languages for examples (I've worked with at least three through my career). They tend to be better at doing parallelism than text, but miserable for operation sequences.
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@hungrier I think you've confused nadir for zenith.
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@djls45 I think you've confused "poopity scoop" for something other than earth-shattering brilliance, the likes of which shall never be matched
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@hungrier I'm not sure about that. There's something earth-shattering about the Legendary Stardust Cowboy that puts him in a class of his own, I think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EEZAivzl1Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MhbCzTqFsQ