Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language
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@levicki said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@Gurth said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
And how long did it take you to not press the wrong buttons to set or do something you know it can but don’t use a lot?
Not much, I was shooting some fashion shows with it a few times. I set everything up before it started (exposure, WB, etc), and I even had C1 C2 C3 custom presets set on a dial for fast changes. It's not rocket surgery you know.
You’re not telling me that you’d never used that camera, or a similar one, before.
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@Gurth I don't think you can expect a DSLR to be accessible. How do you reconcile advanced features with ease of use and physical controls? Pick two (especially when space constrained like on a camera).
This reminds me of a similar phenomenon in the synthesizer world.
This is a very capable synth:
And this is a relatively easy to use one:
The second has more controls but it's still much less capable than the first one. The first one is more of a pain to use (although it's all logical to me).
Anyway, FWIW, my photographer friends tell me that Canon cameras tend to be easier to use than Nikon or Sony ones. (There aren't many popular brands in the DSLR market, it's basically those three). I wouldn't know, I (used to) shoot film.
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@levicki said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@Gurth said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
You’re not telling me that you’d never used that camera, or a similar one, before.
I can't even parse that sentence. What were you trying to say?
He’s trying to say the reason it didn’t take you long to use it was because you likely had experience with it or similar cameras before, not because it was particularly intuitive.
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@levicki said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@Gąska said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
You defined one object attribute and a couple of related actions in what's equivalent of 35 lines of code (number of individual sentences, or individual clauses in case of complex sentences). I'm not exactly impressed.
Yes, but that implementation allows the proper behavior when player tries to remove underwear before removing pants or shirt.
So if you typed:
remove braThe game would respond with:
(First taking off shirt) You remove your bra.That's in runtime, not in your code. Your code is useless without a runtime that can parse user input, extract a command from it, look up the preconditions and procedure for the command, locate the target, look up its attributes, see if preconditions match, then execute the command, possibly invoking other commands on other objects on the way. How much Inform 7 code would it be to implement this part?
Let me know how many lines to write that in C#.
If I had a library that can already do everything that Inform 7 runtime can do, such as parse user input, analyze preconditions and execute commands on appropriate targets based on predefined rules - then it would be roughly 35 lines to write the clothing system.
Also - if not keywords, what is parsing done with instead?
Language is broken down into verbs and nouns I guess? Then using rulebooks (which are extensible) it tries to make sense of that.
But there's much more to the language than just verbs and nouns, and there's multitude of ways a sentence can be arranged which puts verbs and nouns in different places. And how does it even know what is a verb? Is it based solely on position? Doesn't look like it. Does it have predefined list of verbs and everything outside the list is treated like a noun? Also unlikely (it would make it impossible to define new verbs). The only probable explanation I can think of is that it uses
Think of it - why did you have to put "-" in "garment-element"? Why couldn't you split it in two words - "garment element"? I'm 99% sure it's because there's a grammar rule that requires this thing to be a single word surrounded by two keywords, or else the compiler will complain.
It's kind of assumed that the language exists if we're talking about it.
So you are ignoring the part in
()where I clarifed that I bumped into games first before knowing that Inform 7 exists?Okay, fine, I won't ignore it. So you learned from playing that the language exists. Great. So it's exactly like 50 million other programming languages that also exist. Maybe not exactly. Maybe it's different from some. Maybe it's different from all. Maybe it's similar in some aspects to some languages but similar to other languages in other aspects. We don't know. There's literally nothing we can say about the language that would let us compare it with another language - because the only thing we know about this language, that it exists, is shared by every other language in existence too.
This is the most useless statement made about any programming language ever.
that something can be and was implemented doesn't tell anything about the language either.
So what you are saying is that by watching a movie you don't get any insight into how movies are made
Exactly. Is this something you disagree with? You haven't made it clear
and despite what you claimed before you really can't comment on a movie unless you studied how movies are made and made one yourself?
Wrong. I said nothing to that effect. I don't need to know anything about the programming language to comment on a game, I don't need to know anything about filmmaking to comment on a movie.
You missed the crucial part of the explanation - that the direction from Sol to Alpha Centauri is very close to the direction from Sol to the center of the galaxy. That makes these two directions basically the same direction.
Define "very close".
Very close is so close that it can be treated as basically the same direction.
Goddamn you're so ridiculously pedantic about language. Do you ever talk to normal people? Do you really think people are always so precise in casual talk that they make a distinction between something that is to the west and something that's at 280 degrees? Do you think anyone ever thinks about the exact point at which it's okay to conflate a given direction with a cardinal direction?
Also, I am not an astronomer but I am sure they are not the same direction.
You're no linguist either, but you should still be able to understand the word "basically".
The drawing was for you.
But the sentence which you are trying to explain to me with that drawing was for Inform 7. And you still haven't explained your sentence to Inform 7.
Inform 7 doesn't need an explanation. It only wants statements. There is an object called Sol. It doesn't matter what it is. There is an object called Alpha Centauri. It doesn't matter what it is. There is a direction called "towards the center of the galaxy". It doesn't matter what this direction is. It doesn't matter either that this direction references the galaxy, because to Inform 7, it's not a complex description, it's just a literal string that makes a very long proper noun.
If Inform 7 was actually capable of understanding natural language, it would matter to it what a galaxy is and that it has a center, but also you wouldn't have to define what "towards the center of the galaxy" means after you already defined the center of the galaxy, and you very definitely wouldn't have to define what "away from the center of the galaxy" means if it already understood what "towards..." means. But Inform 7 isn't AI, it's just a simple compiler that operates on simple grammar rules, and so it needs to be told explicitly that "away from the center of the galaxy" is the opposite of "towards the center of the galaxy".
I keep trying to explain to you why it can't be parsed as written (because it is plain incorrect even from a human perspective)
Not incorrect. Ambiguous. And if you mean it's factually wrong - facts don't matter for grammar. Look - I had no problem understanding the sentence. This means the sentence absolutely can be understood as is, just not in case of every human. That's very different from "can't".
Does the language need to know what clothing is to understand that you can wear
Language only needs to know that something (an object representing clothing) is wearable.
But in order to know what is the center of galaxy and how to move towards it, it needs to know much more.
See above. "Towards the center of galaxy" is a literal string and a proper noun from Inform 7's perspective. It doesn't get parsed and split into components.
About as much as "west of London" is meaningless.
How can you be a programmer and not understand that:
- "West of London" includes exactly one direction "west" and one object "London"
No, not really. "West" in casual speech can include any of the infinite directions that are between northwest and southwest, and "London" can refer to any of the infinite points contained within the administrative borders of the city of London. And in case you didn't know, London is pretty big.
- "Towards the center of the galaxy" includes one direction "towards" (without declaring what is its opposite), and two objects "center" and "galaxy"
See above.
You can write:
London is a region. Big Ben is a room in London. Dark tower is in a region called West of London. It is west of Big Ben.Have you noticed how you just used the word "west" in the name "West of London" and Inform 7 will totally ignore that and not treat it like a direction at all? You could've written "North of London is west of Big Ben" instead and it wouldn't complain either.
The best way I could think of (without spending too much time on it) which would allow what you wanted to do is this
Now try the following:
Towards-the-center-of-the-galaxy is a direction. The opposite of towards-the-center-of-the-galaxy is away-from-the-center-of-the-galaxy. Away-from-the-center-of-the-galaxy is a direction. The opposite of away-from-the-center-of-the-galaxy is towards-the-center-of-the-galaxy. Sol is a room. Player is in Sol. Alpha Centauri is a room. It is towards-the-center-of-the-galaxy from the Sol.Not perfect, but as a quick and dirty example of what I'm talking about it should suffice.
As a side note, Inform 7 doesn't allow "of" in the name of a direction - hence the dashes. It's one more clue that it does indeed use keyword-based parsing.
Tell me exactly where's the problem with my reasoning or fuck off and don't comment on it at all.
"If I know something (which I don't actually know personally, and didn't bother to verify)
I verified by having someone more knowledgable than me tell it to me. Are you trying to say you lied to me about his music?
and I know something else (which I observed earlier from unrelated people in unrelated cases)
TIL people making music are unrelated to people making music, and making music is unrelated to making music.
I know enough to discuss the subject with authority."
I never claimed authority on the subject. Or is the mere act of having an opinion authoritative?
Literally I'm talking to people on a forum, but the context was how hard (or easy) it is to communicate with a compiler.
And if you think you know the better answer to that, then show it to us or shut the fuck up.
Better answer to what? The language design that wouldn't require for the programmer to explain that "towards the center of the galaxy" is opposite of "away from the center of the galaxy"? I think you've lost track what we're even arguing here.
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Goddamn you're so ridiculously pedantic about language. Do you ever talk to normal people?
Oh the ironing is strong in this thread...
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@M_Adams it could have been deliberate.
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@admiral_p said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@Gurth I don't think you can expect a DSLR to be accessible. How do you reconcile advanced features with ease of use and physical controls? Pick two (especially when space constrained like on a camera).
Exactly: the problem is too many functions and too many buttons. The latter simply because if you have many functions, you need many buttons, if physical buttons are your only UI. (I know, DSLR cameras also have on-screen menus. They’re not normally used for things you want to change a lot, though.)
Probably the best solution is physical buttons for controls you really need at the moment you’re taking pictures, plus a touchscreen for showing more controls you might have a use for, and into which you can dig deeper for additional settings and things.
Anyway, FWIW, my photographer friends tell me that Canon cameras tend to be easier to use than Nikon or Sony ones.
That may be part of why @levicki and I disagree on this issue: the only DSLRs I’ve ever used were Nikons, and his are apparently mostly Canons.
@levicki said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@Gurth said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
You’re not telling me that you’d never used that camera, or a similar one, before.
I can't even parse that sentence. What were you trying to say?
I tried to say exactly what I did say. But let me rephrase it for you: I do not believe that you had never used that camera (or one like it) before when you adjusted its settings for the fashion photoshoot you mentioned. In other words: things are often easy to do when you know how to do them. I hardly have to think about how to achieve certain effects using paint on a model, but someone who isn’t a modeller — or even is a modeller but in a different discipline — most likely will have to give that some thought. And then probably doesn’t paint it as well as I would, given that I have much more experience with this sort of thing (not that I’m great at it, though).
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@Gąska said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
This is the most useless statement made about any programming language ever.
Given some of the arguments I've read here, that's a very high bar, and I'm not sure this meets it. It's certainly a contender, though.
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@Gurth the thing with DSLRs is that, just like synthesizers, their target users expect to be able to adjust settings on the fly. On a synthesizer most users want to set oscillator type, octave and volume quickly, they want to set filter type, cutoff and resonance, filter and amplifier envelopes on the fly. You need many knobs for this and if you deliberately decide to go "all knobs" then many functions won't be able to be implemented. The first synth has two filters, either parallel or serial, several distortion models, two LFOs, four different envelopes, two of the three oscillators can play wavetables as opposed to virtual analog wave models, each oscillator can be set differently as regards pitch control and even character of the oscillator itself, as well as extensive modulation of the parameters. You can play samples and filter them. You can do almost nothing on the fly, it's all done through menus. The Nord Rack can do 30% of what the first synth can do and it is the most popular one of the two, because it has all those controls and it's ultimately easier to use. (Also because it has a very "in your face" character that sits well in the mix, which I find a bit sterile but hey). Keyboard players have been clamouring for the return of the original Roland Juno which is even less capable and can do only few nice bread and butter sounds. In the meantime, sound designers tend to prefer the first type because it is much more capable.
Professional photographers instead want to adjust ISO on the fly. They want to adjust aperture, shutter times, focus modes, exposure modes, manual exposure (±x stops), they want to be able to adjust automatic modes (shutter priority, aperture priority, total auto, total manual, etc.). You want to be able to see exposure (histograms and the lot) at a glance. You want to adjust dioptric correction on the viewfinder. You want to do all of this fast (imagine you're doing nature photography, imagine you have shifting and wildly variable lighting, etc.).
These are all quite basic functions that require either multimode controls, duplicated controls or menu digging. Or you do stuff like they used to do on the old cameras which were basically full manual cameras (barring for some automatic exposure modes). Typically you don't want to interact with a camera with a touchscreen because the usual way of controlling a camera is by never letting go of its designed hand rests and stuff, plus the touchscreens are tiny. And menu digging is slow and may cause you to miss that perfect shot or it becomes cumbersome because you're constantly switching between modes.
FWIW, while "prosumer" users used to get cheaper DSLRs, or even top of the line ones, now they tend to gravitate towards mirrorless cameras that are smaller, lighter and relatively cheaper, and since many of these cameras are or were shunned by professionals, they were deliberately made easier to use (and expecting you to navigate through submenus for the advanced features, also expecting that the typical user would leave them alone), also considering that the computing power and sensors and stuff have got better through the years and so they're faster at focusing, they nail the exposure better, etc.
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@admiral_p said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
prosumer
I was about to correct you on this, but then looked up Wikipedia article and who would have thought, the photo industry has actually appropriated the term to mean something entirely different from what it originally meant. Goddamn I hate marketing people.
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@admiral_p said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
the usual way of controlling a camera is by never letting go of its designed hand rests and stuff, plus the touchscreens are tiny. And menu digging is slow and may cause you to miss that perfect shot
This is where I come in from a different angle, and which probably explains my complaints (and, if you want to put it that way, failure to realise the above): I take photos of static objects that I can arrange any way I like at my leisure, and if I use a DSLR, I do so with a tripod and the self-timer so I don’t risk camera movement.
Most of the time, though, I just use my iPad as that gives perfectly acceptable photos for my purposes. The hassle of trying to get a DSLR camera to do what I want it to doesn’t usually weigh up against the supposedly better photographs I would be able to take with it.
@Gąska said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@admiral_p said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
prosumer
I was about to correct you on this, but then looked up Wikipedia article and who would have thought, the photo industry has actually appropriated the term to mean something entirely different from what it originally meant.
“Prosumer” has two meanings. I had always understood it to mean “high-end consumer model” but recently learned it also means the thing that you probably assumed at first, and that that’s in fact an older meaning.
Goddamn I hate marketing people.
I suspect the more recent meaning was arrived at without knowing the word already existed with another definition.
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@Gurth if you want something better than that, you could get something like a good point and shoot:
They have a larger sensor than you'll find on any phone, optical zoom and a proper lens. Based on price, up to the third or maybe fourth iteration makes sense.
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@Gurth said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
I suspect the more recent meaning was arrived at without knowing the word already existed with another definition.
Yes, that's a big part of my problem with marketing people - they're vastly uneducated on basic life knowledge and don't even have this reflex to always double check things they aren't experts about, such as whether the word they're inventing is already taken.
The second big problem is that they come up with the most stupid terms for everything. Prosumer? A professional that is also a consumer? Like, who buys things, but also uses these things for work? If you mean the middle price segment between high-end professional products and low-end consumer products, why not just say middle segment?
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@Gąska they mean a consumer who is also pro-level wannabe. Usually prosumer goods are capable of high quality, comparable to the professional gear, but lack certain features that are needed on the job (eg. weather proofing, reliability in demanding situations, long battery life, etc.). Of course it's just a buzzword.
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@admiral_p said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
they mean a consumer who is also pro-level wannabe.
This. When it comes to photography, it describes me. I don't have a good camera because I don't want a typical consumer camera, but I can't afford the camera I do want.
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@Gąska said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
Yes, that's a big part of my problem with marketing people - they're vastly uneducated on basic life knowledge and don't even have this reflex to always double check things they aren't experts about
Accuracy and diligence, of course, gets in the way of selling stuff to people who don’t really need it anyway.
The second big problem is that they come up with the most stupid terms for everything. Prosumer? A professional that is also a consumer? Like, who buys things, but also uses these things for work?
Not quite. It means people who are not professionals — that is, don’t make a living from their efforts — but do want high(er)-end tools for the job. Like, Photoshop to tinker with pictures instead of Paint (I know, there are things in between those two options).
If you mean the middle price segment between high-end professional products and low-end consumer products, why not just say middle segment?
Different goal. That’s what they do when they want to make the middle option seem the unattractive one so as to push people to getting the high-end model instead.
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@levicki said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
It didn't take me long to use it BECAUSE I READ THE FUCKING OWNER'S MANUAL.
Do you get out the manual every time you want to change a setting? Or only when you can’t remember how to make it do what you want?
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@levicki although I agree with you that the user shouldn't just be able to use a complex machine by intuition alone (because it's wishful thinking), there are cases where stuff is user-hostile. See: tar. Some cameras do have unnecessarily difficult-to-use UIs (according to my photographer friends).
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@levicki said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@Gąska said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
That's in runtime, not in your code.
My code overrides wear, remove, and examine actions from runtime so the response (First removing shirt) is from my code.
Okay, let's split the difference and say the logic is half in your code and half in runtime. Also, does the runtime come with built-in support for clothing? I thought it was custom addition (I don't mean overriding, I mean the very concept that the player can wear some item - is this in runtime, or is it all custom code?)
If I had a library...
I was asking specifically about the code to handle underlay/overlay relations.
"Handle underlay/overlay relations" is the least specific way you could've put it. I assume you mean that the code should handle taking off outermost layers before taking off inner layers. Which is not exactly hard, but it heavily depends on specifics of available API.
You can imagine that you have a library and that you have a class called Wearable which has methods wear(), remove() and examine(). You also have a class Player which serves as a container for wearable items (implement it as a list, tree, whatever). How many lines?
It's a very bad API you're proposing and nothing at all like what Inform 7 offers (because Inform 7 operates on objects and actions and relations, not on wearables - the OOP API should be objects and actions and relations, not wearables). I don't feel like writing pointless code in vacuum (ie. it couldn't ever be run because it would depend on non-existent library, and even if the library did exist, no one would want to), and I don't have the option of just copypasting someone else's code like you did, so I'll pass this challenge. But if there was C# library with similar API to what Inform 7 offers, it would be similar number of lines as in Inform 7 (when you make correction for how many less line breaks per statement Inform 7 code uses).
Think of it - why did you have to put "-" in "garment-element"? Why couldn't you split it in two words - "garment element"? I'm 99% sure it's because there's a grammar rule that requires this thing to be a single word surrounded by two keywords, or else the compiler will complain.
I didn't have, that code was copy paste of someone else's code. As you can see, Inform 7 is more than happy to accept it without "-":
And another one of your assumptions bites the dust.
Yeah, you've got me. But there's still more than enough clues to say it's keyword-based.
It's kind of assumed that the language exists if we're talking about it.
So you are ignoring the part in
()where I clarifed that I bumped into games first before knowing that Inform 7 exists?So it's exactly like 50 million other programming languages that also exist.
About which I didn't learn by stumbling into games written in them
Well, I did. I learned about Java by playing RuneScape. I learned about Lua by playing GTA San Andreas. I learned about Flash by playing Flash games. But I don't see how that's relevant to anything - the point is, all you learn is that the language exists, and it's a useless characteristic for analysis and comparison with other languages, because every other existing language also exists.
I don't need to know anything about the programming language to comment on a game, I don't need to know anything about filmmaking to comment on a movie.
If you want to look like an ass sure.
So now you're an authority in what makes people look like ass. How long have you practiced psychology? Because, you know, if you don't have direct experience in psychology, your opinion isn't worth shit.
Very close is so close that it can be treated as basically the same direction.
There is no such thing as "very close" in space.
But there is such a thing in casual speech.
Do you really think people are always so precise in casual talk...
You were not talking casually -- you were making an assertion about something. Damn right I expect you to be precise when doing that.
Bro, we're on internet forum. Don't expect me to behave as if I'm defending master's thesis.
There is a direction called "towards the center of the galaxy". It doesn't matter what this direction is. It doesn't matter either that this direction references the galaxy, because to Inform 7, it's not a complex description, it's just a literal string that makes a very long proper noun.
Inform doesn't parse that as direction, but as another unknown object. Actual error output from Inform 7:
Yes, because of the "no 'of' in direction name" rule. When I was writing that part, I was unaware that it was illegal. But replace spaces with dashes and everything works.
Not incorrect. Ambiguous.
From a natural programming language perspective it is incorrect.
You literally said it's incorrect from human perspective. Don't move the goalposts so fast, I can't keep up with making fun of you for it!
No, not really. "West" in casual speech can include any of the infinite directions that are between northwest and southwest, and "London" can refer to any of the infinite points contained within the administrative borders of the city of London. And in case you didn't know, London is pretty big.
Are we now talking about how Inform 7 is parsing that or humans?
We are talking about whatever it was that you were talking about when you said that directions are meaningless without latitude, longitude and distance. Seriously, you're getting lost in your own points so often. Maybe you should keep up a ledger of what you were talking about previously so you don't get confused so much about direct replies to your own points.
Have you noticed how you just used the word "west" in the name "West of London" and Inform 7 will totally ignore that and not treat it like a direction at all?
Haven't you noticed the special syntax:
region called West of London
Which is what allowed me to make Inform 7 ignore "west" in "West of London" for demonstration purposes?
Whether escaping with "called" is required or not - the end result is, Inform 7 totally ignored that word and didn't treat it like a direction at all.
You could've written "North of London is west of Big Ben" instead and it wouldn't complain either.
That would result in totally different parsing and a disjointed map because without explicitly stating what "London" and "Big Ben" are they are treated as rooms because of directions involved (and it is quite smart, smarter than you actually)
I think you've yet again misunderstood what I'm saying. I meant just replacing the word "west" in "west of London" with "north", such that there is a region called "north of London" that's west of Big Ben.
Works just fine.
Not perfect, but as a quick and dirty example of what I'm talking about it should suffice.
Nor perfect? It's goddamn awful.
I know. I'm not good at Inform 7 and didn't even try to get all the bells and whistles right. I just wanted to show you what I mean by that "towards the center of the galaxy" is a direction, because it constantly flies over your head what I mean by it.
As a side note, Inform 7 doesn't allow "of" in the name of a direction
Of course it doesn't. How would you say "object1 is west of object2" otherwise if "of" could be part of direction?
By looking at the grammatical structure of the sentence? Oh wait, it can't do that, because it operates on keywords like every other programming language.
I verified by having someone more knowledgable than me tell it to me. Are you trying to say you lied to me about his music?
I don't remember you verifying anything before spouting nonsense claims.
I read what you wrote. Isn't it enough? Don't you trust your own judgement?
TIL people making music are unrelated to people making music, and making music is unrelated to making music.
Making music or playing music?
Now I'm totally confused. What is this guy doing? Is he playing his own composition? Is he playing someone else's composition? Is he playing his own variation of someone else's compisition? If it's someone else's composition, has he ever heard it, or have only seen notes? Because each of these possibilities warrants a different answer.
And how is playing flute related to playing guitar?
where did a flute come from? I thought we're still talking about this John Gomm guy.I never claimed authority on the subject. Or is the mere act of having an opinion authoritative?
You haven't stated an opinion.
Opinion would be "he plays bad".
You stated "he doesn't need notes for what he is doing" which is a claim that you know a) what he is doing and b) whether he needs notes for that, not a fucking opinion.
Okay, I used a bad word. Not an opinion. Should've said I stated a hypothesis. Is stating hypotheses authoritative?
Better answer to what?
To the problem you presented.
Which one? We're talking about like 60 things at once. You could be referring to fifteen different things in this sentence. Can you please just say what you have in mind, without stupid guessing games? You're here for a discussion, right? Why are you doing everything you can to stop discussion from happening?
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@levicki said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@Gurth said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
Do you get out the manual every time you want to change a setting? Or only when you can’t remember how to make it do what you want?
No, I memorized it. Now what?
I also memorized all x86 instructions, regular and SIMD. Now what?
Good for you that you are able to memorise things like that. Your problem, then, is that you expect other people to have the same ability, and when they don’t, you don’t seem to wonder if maybe you are the one who’s different.
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@Gąska said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
Yes, that's a big part of my problem with marketing people - they're vastly uneducated on basic life knowledge and don't even have this reflex to always double check things they aren't experts about, such as whether the word they're inventing is already taken.
I prefer to think that they do it on purpose to annoy pedantic dickheads who want to tell everyone how they should be communicating. But @blakeyrat's rants on this sort of thing were more fun than yours tend to be.
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@boomzilla imagine how beautiful the world would be if people simply didn't try their hardest to be assholes to each other.
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@Gąska said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@boomzilla imagine how beautiful the world would be if people simply didn't try their hardest to be assholes to each other.
I was told that it's unhealthy to have impossible goals.
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@boomzilla that's why I don't have impossible goals.
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@boomzilla said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
I prefer to think that they do it on purpose to annoy pedantic dickheads
Good thing I'm a pedantic dickweed, not a pedantic dickhead.
But since the discussion was about marketing people making up stuff out of ignorance, I'm gonna go with ignorance rather than purposeful annoyance.
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@HardwareGeek I think it's much simpler. They see the word "prosumer" as a niche portmanteau which is obscure to the general public. So they appropriated it, assuming that the few pedantic dick{heads, weeds} that would care enough would be silenced by the deluge of affordable cameras.
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@admiral_p said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
affordable
Isn't "prosumer" just the opposite?
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@Gąska it's "relatively affordable". It's the "good stuff that the average Joe can afford".
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@admiral_p but isn't that what consumer grade is? If "prosumer" is the new consumer grade, what does consumer grade mean now?
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@Gąska said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@admiral_p but isn't that what consumer grade is? If "prosumer" is the new consumer grade, what does consumer grade mean now?
It's saying it's in between the cheap consumer stuff and the high end professional stuff. So, affordable to the serious hobbyist.
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@boomzilla said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@Gąska said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@admiral_p but isn't that what consumer grade is? If "prosumer" is the new consumer grade, what does consumer grade mean now?
It's saying it's in between the cheap consumer stuff and the high end professional stuff.
Yes, I know what it's saying. My point is that there already was a well established name for this - quality consumer stuff.
@boomzilla said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
So, affordable to the serious hobbyist
GeForce RTX 2080-affordable?
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@Gąska said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@boomzilla said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@Gąska said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@admiral_p but isn't that what consumer grade is? If "prosumer" is the new consumer grade, what does consumer grade mean now?
It's saying it's in between the cheap consumer stuff and the high end professional stuff.
Yes, I know what it's saying. My point is that there already was a well established name for this - quality consumer stuff.
But that's not snazzy sounding, which people like.
@boomzilla said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
So, affordable to the serious hobbyist
GeForce RTX 2080-affordable?
What is that, a video card? Why would you ask me a question like that?
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@boomzilla said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@boomzilla said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
So, affordable to the serious hobbyist
GeForce RTX 2080-affordable?
What is that, a video card? Why would you ask me a question like that?
Because it's one of the most expensive video cards on the market, save for actual professional stuff like NVidia Quadro. Nobody would call RTX 2080 affordable, except under the most literal interpretation imaginable, ie. "you have enough money in your bank to afford getting one of those".
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@Gąska said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@boomzilla said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@boomzilla said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
So, affordable to the serious hobbyist
GeForce RTX 2080-affordable?
What is that, a video card? Why would you ask me a question like that?
Because it's one of the most expensive video cards on the market, save for actual professional stuff like NVidia Quadro. Nobody would call RTX 2080 affordable, except under the most literal interpretation imaginable, ie. "you have enough money in your bank to afford getting one of those".
OK. Now I'll do one. Tesla Model S.
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@boomzilla said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
Tesla Model S.
Only good for rendering fires and firetrucks
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@boomzilla yes, Tesla Model S is excellent example of everything that's wrong with "prosumer" products.
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@Gąska said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@boomzilla yes, Tesla Model S is excellent example of everything that's wrong with "prosumer" products.
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@Gąska said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@boomzilla yes, Tesla Model S is excellent example of everything that's wrong
with "prosumer" products.FTFY
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EDIT: Whoops, sorry HardwareGeek -- I didn't mean to make this a reply to your post!
hey, i'm a long-time inform fan and i feel the need to step in because i think the current inform defender is being a jerk and playing up the uninteresting parts of inform.
inform is a weird language for reasons other than syntax. i don't think it's especially well-designed syntactically, but it has lots of cool features. overall i think inform is pretty unclassifiable but more similar in spirit to Prolog to any other existing languages.
inform is basically an object-oriented language with inheritance where most values are statically allocated. however, the syntax lets you add extension fields/methods basically anywhere you want, which makes it feel a little bit like a relational programming language. (like prolog with discontiguous predicates) relations are real in inform and can be enforced to be symmetric. (which is what this whole directionality thing was about)
inform has a weird "conservation of mass" feature where physical objects are enforced only to exist in one place at once. (the documentation never refers to it by any name, but that is essentially what is happening) this feels kinda like linear typing, but it's actually just "you can only hold references to things, and there are no builtin operations that explicitly get rid of or create an object."
inform turns a lot of things as values that can be stored, like future or past procedure calls. inform also lets you respond to practically arbitrary events, and has a "come from" feature like exception handling. (
instead ofclauses) this lets you do a lot of weird logic programming and aspect-oriented programming things in it (look at the Robo examples in the docs if you want to see some really wild stuff)oh! and it has an amazingly strong static type system. it's really hard to write inform programs that will crash. that's kind of a feat given how much functionality it has built in.
re the claim that existing informdude keeps making which is that inform could be used for practical things if only it supported a practical compiler -- i disagree with this.
inform compiles to a pretty general-purpose vm called Glulx. the only text-adventure specific parts of Glulx are its savestate and IO support. Glulx implementations practically have a bunch of inform-specific extensions designed for text adventurey things, but which aren't needed for running programs. (mainly, there are several instructions that load optimized implementations of builtin Inform procs, but Inform provides an unoptimized version should the VM not support those instructions)
the actual reasons inform is text-adventure specific have to do with what's built into it. i think inform's object model could be useful for lots of other things, but the current ECS trend and linear typing trends are probably going to schwump up a lot of those things! imho it was ahead of its time and got a lot of things right that it will never be credited for, because it was not popular.
inform itself isn't trying to be useful for things other than text adventures. it is a very good language for that imho, and i am sure that if the designers of inform (emily short, graham nelson, andrew plotkin) designed a non-text adventure language, it would also be super awesome
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@zekka Welcome!
@zekka said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
I think the current inform defender is being a jerk
Don't be alarmed though, most people can be jerks around here. It's a matter of pride.
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@boomzilla the Tesla Model S is in no way "prosumer". I'd see "prosumer", if you can even apply the category to cars, to stuff like more affordable BMWs and Mercs.
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@admiral_p said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@boomzilla the Tesla Model S is in no way "prosumer". I'd see "prosumer", if you can even apply the category to cars, to stuff like more affordable BMWs and Mercs.
Right. I thought we were just naming expensive stuff at that point. I have no idea how a graphics card got mixed up into the "prosumer" discussion.
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@boomzilla if we really were debating which video cards are "prosumer" they wouldn't be the gaming enthusiast ones. At least it wouldn't start from there. They'd be the ones below those ones. The mid-range (because basically "prosumer" is a fancy way to say mid-range which is very beige as a label).
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@admiral_p said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
if we really were debating which video cards are "prosumer" they wouldn't be the gaming enthusiast ones.
I have no idea what that would even mean.
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@boomzilla do you want to achieve 60fps at ultrahigh settings in high-res with recent games? That's what I'd see a video card as a "gaming enthusiast" video card.
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@admiral_p that makes sense to me, sure. But I don't know why you'd apply "prosumer" to video cards. But maybe Pixar works with farms of really high end stuff? I assumed they used "normal" stuff, but lots of them.
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@boomzilla said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
I have no idea how a ... got mixed up into the ... discussion.
Welcome to TDWTF.
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@boomzilla said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
But maybe Pixar works with farms of really high end stuff? I assumed they used "normal" stuff, but lots of them.
I don't know who uses them, nor for what, exactly, but there are some very expensive "pro" cards out there. I've seen some that are like $12000 apiece.
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@levicki
@Gąska
I actually love these natural programming languages; Part of it, is because they fail (programmers still describe everything as in a 'normal formal programming language'). It actually undermines the goal/usefullness of themself.But mostly because the people, who discuss them, have to act like a "normal formal programming language" interpreter themselves.
Flips hands out the 2019 Anti-Turing-Award to Gąska and Levicki
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What a thread this has turned into.
