Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...
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@admiral_p said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
@Gurth but you appreciate that it is different?
In my experience, not much. Both nationalists and company's HR department perform indoctrinations, make people recite current values, parade with symbols and enforce madatory neighborhood/team integration hours.
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@Gąska Also both countries and companies seem to function just fine with the amount of nationalists / HR reduced to a minimum.
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@admiral_p said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
For example British aviation could be effectively blocked off because there aren't treaties regulating the matter, and if the EU actually lets that happen to make an example of the UK, well, that's being a dick.
But how much is that the fault of the EU and how much is it incompetence on the UKs side when negotiating?
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@cvi said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
But how much is that the fault of the EU and how much is it incompetence on the UKs side when negotiating?
Whatever the fault or malice on the EU side, the incompetence, mendacity and myopia on the UK side is so thoroughly legion that we don't need to ascribe any failure further than that.
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@dkf the point is still that the EU in my opinion is better off, for its own stability, not to adopt a hard stance. Even going out of their way to make the transition as smooth as possible. If the EU starts making things as hard as they can, technicalities and all, they're going to regret it. They'll be seen as ruthless bastards led by the Germans and French and, "hey, maybe if we all get out of the EU, that'll show them!".
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@admiral_p said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
@Gurth but you appreciate that it is different?
It’s different only in how many other people feel the same way about the subject. Say something like, “Kerflakistan sucks!” and you might have several million people lusting for your blood, whereas if you say, “Initech sucks!” it’ll be a few dozen. Sure, it may be more extreme when it comes to countries, but the basics are the same: “
$group_I_belong_to
has been insulted! This is bad!”Compare: "FOR SCOTLAND!", "FOR GOOGLE!".
Compare both with: “COME ON YOU REDS!”
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@Gurth football is tribalistic and is closer to nationality/nationalism (in fact most ultras groups are right-wing). In Italian we use terms such as "faith" to refer to the team you support.
When it comes to business, depending on managing style, you may conduct business only based on numbers/facts and no other considerations. "I don't care who I sell my stuff to/buy my stuff from, as long as they pay on time/make me a good deal". Samsung has no problem at all selling parts to their competitors.
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@admiral_p said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
Samsung has no problem at all selling parts to their competitors.
How is this different from countries whose economy largely depends on trade?
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@admiral_p said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
They'll be seen as ruthless bastards led by the Germans and French and, "hey, maybe if we all get out of the EU, that'll show them!".
That’s happening one way or the other. We could literally throw money at them and the nationalist populists would still be screaming “evil EU”.
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@topspin said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
We could literally throw money at them and the nationalist populists would still be screaming “evil EU”.
Evidence is that if you just throw money at them, they assume it's because you think they're fabulous and totally deserving, and that if they keep doing more of what they're doing they'll get even more.
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@topspin said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
That’s happening one way or the other. We could literally throw money at them and the nationalist populists would still be screaming “evil EU”.
While using it to build big football stadiums for little teams, tourist trains in towns that see hardly any tourists, and similar.
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@Gąska said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
@Luhmann said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
@Gąska said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
What if C and D make a joint venture and try to get the same deal together as they've had before,
then there is no split in the example is there?
There is a split, but then a partial rejoin in some areas. This happens all the time when countries split in a mostly peaceful way. Of course countries splitting is itself very rare, but still.
It's less rare than you think, given what "countries splitting" implies. I'm pretty sure I could come up with a list of at least four or five that split themselves plus several other cases of the split being imposed, just in the 20th century.
Oh, all right, since you insist.
Self-splitters:
- UK/Ireland
- East and West Pakistan, better known (now) as Bangladesh and Pakistan
- Czechoslovakia=> Czech Republic and Slovakia
- Yugoslavia=>all them countries
- USSR=>all them countries
Imposed split:
- India => India + East&West Pakistan
- Germany => Austria, East Germany, West Germany
- Cyprus => Cyprus and not-Cyprus / Turkish Cyprus / North Cyprus, depending on what you want to call it.
I've probably missed a few...
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
I've probably missed a few...
Quite a bit of Africa fits the description too.
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
- Germany => Austria, East Germany, West Germany
Germany and Austria were never the same country after the Holy Roman Empire dissolved in the early 19th century (and applying the term “country” to the Holy Roman Empire could be said to be stretching the definition anyway). Yes, Nazi Germany gobbled up Austria, but legally, the Allies viewed Austria as being occupied territory.
The governments of the United Kingdom, the Soviet Union and the United States of America are agreed that Austria, the first free country to fall a victim to Hitlerite aggression, shall be liberated from German domination.
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@Gurth said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
@Steve_The_Cynic said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
- Germany => Austria, East Germany, West Germany
Germany and Austria were never the same country after the Holy Roman Empire dissolved in the early 19th century (and applying the term “country” to the Holy Roman Empire could be said to be stretching the definition anyway). Yes, Nazi Germany gobbled up Austria, but legally, the Allies viewed Austria as being occupied territory.
The governments of the United Kingdom, the Soviet Union and the United States of America are agreed that Austria, the first free country to fall a victim to Hitlerite aggression, shall be liberated from German domination.
Fair point, although I notice that you're not contesting the East/West part.
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
@Gąska said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
@Luhmann said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
@Gąska said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
What if C and D make a joint venture and try to get the same deal together as they've had before,
then there is no split in the example is there?
There is a split, but then a partial rejoin in some areas. This happens all the time when countries split in a mostly peaceful way. Of course countries splitting is itself very rare, but still.
It's less rare than you think, given what "countries splitting" implies.
It's exactly as rare as I think. Everything that happens less often than FIFA World Cup is rare. You've provided 8 examples, from what I can tell you're covering the last 80 years. That's 1 every 10 years. And 3 of them should be considered a single event - the fall of USSR. Even if you missed quite a bunch in your list, it's still rare.
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( Your attention please. The debate about the definition of
"great graphics""rare event" will be starting in 3... 2... 1...")
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@Zerosquare said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
( Your attention please. The debate about the definition of
"great graphics""rare event" will be starting in 3... 2... 1...")Possibly, but I won't be participating.
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@Steve_The_Cynic good. I'd hate to have yet another stupid pointless back-and-forth that would stop us from discussing the good stuff.
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@Gurth said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
Compare both with: “COME ON YOU REDS!”
The joke's on you! The Reds play baseball, not football!
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@boomzilla said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
The Reds play baseball, not football!
Who cares? They are dirty communists anyway
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
Fair point, although I notice that you're not contesting the East/West part.
That’s a very difficult kettle of fish … Depending on how you look at it, the BRD and DDR were not independent countries but occupied territories until reunification in 1990, or they were both independent countries in their own right that were created by the occupying nations in the 1950s. Both are probably true simultaneously.
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@dkf said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
@Steve_The_Cynic said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
I've probably missed a few...
Quite a bit of Africa fits the description too.
And who can forget these greatest hits of 20th century politics:
- French Indochina -> Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia
- Vietnam -> North/South Vietnam
- Korea -> North/South Korea
- China -> PRC, Taiwan
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@HardwareGeek And then there's ongoing disputes; places where the location you visit google maps from affect what you see.
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@HardwareGeek Don't forget Canada, that was only in 1982.
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@pie_flavor well, not really. They were a separate country already, although not fully independent.
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@Gąska I'm just talking events. They've still got the Queen on their money; I'm not sure I'd call them independent even now.
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@pie_flavor said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
@Gąska I'm just talking events.
And I'm saying it wasn't an event of countries splitting. It was an already separate country gaining more independence.
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@pie_flavor said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
Don't forget Canada
But I can try!
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@admiral_p said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
If the EU starts making things as hard as they can, technicalities and all, they're going to regret it. They'll be seen as ruthless bastards led by the Germans and French and, "hey, maybe if we all get out of the EU, that'll show them!".
I don't know about the Germans, but I can tell you that in France, the mood is not "oh no the EU is going too hard on those poor Brits" but much, much more "ha! serves them right, those bloody rosbifs! Let it sink back in the ocean..."
Notwithstanding the widespread hate from populists of both sides towards the EU, mind you.
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@remi said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
I don't know about the Germans, but I can tell you that in France, the mood is not "oh no the EU is going too hard on those poor Brits" but much, much more "ha! serves them right, those bloody rosbifs! Let it sink back in the ocean..."
Notwithstanding the widespread hate from populists of both sides towards the EU, mind you.
Indeed, the hate between the French and English is much older than the EU (sorry to the other UK nations, you're caught in this madness). That wouldn't apply to Germany (WWII notwithstanding), but I get the impression that most Germans are pro-EU and quite likely to shake their heads at the UK's antics.
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@remi said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
Notwithstanding the widespread hate from populists of both sides towards the EU, mind you.
I like how you used the phrase "both sides" to sound like a reasonable centrist making a balanced argument, while completely skipping over the populists on the side of EU.
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@Gąska I'm not sure you'll find a lot of populists on the EU side (in France), unless maybe in the sense that all parties everywhere are always somewhat populist. The main pro-EU party at the moment is the government one and given the current climate (yellow vests etc.), you'd need a very weird definition of "populist" to call them that.
But if you want me to say that I despise all French populist anti-EU parties, you won't have to weasel around it. I do despise them. Pre-emptive ing: I've only stated my opinion of parties that are both populists and anti-EU (and French), do not infer from that that I like all other parties.
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@remi said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
The main pro-EU party at the moment is the government one and given the current climate (yellow vests etc.), you'd need a very weird definition of "populist" to call them that.
Your not-populist-at-all-unless-you-really-stretch-it government has very similar policies to our absolutely-populist-no-questions-about-it Polish government - bumping gas taxes included.
It's kinda amazing how the European liberals managed to redefine "populist" to mean "anti-EU", automatically making all pro-EU parties non-populist-unless-you-really-stretch-it. Not as amazing as American redefinition of racism, but still.
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@Gąska said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
Your not-populist-at-all-unless-you-really-stretch-it government has very similar policies to our absolutely-populist-no-questions-about-it Polish government - bumping gas taxes included.
So how did your populists sell / justify / explain the gas taxes? And why didn't you riot?
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@Gąska So increasing gas taxes is a populist policy now? And your argument is that a party implementing the same, clearly non-populist, policy as another party that is itself labelled as populist, is a populist party?
European liberals managed to redefine "populist" to mean "anti-EU"
I specifically mentioned "populist anti-EU" parties. It's your problem if you read that as "all populist parties are anti-EU", but that's not what I wrote.
Now if you object to my characterization of the two main French anti-EU parties (Rassemblement National (ex-Front National, far right) and France Insoumise (far left)) as being also populist parties, please explain why, with details.
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@boomzilla said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
@Gąska said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
Your not-populist-at-all-unless-you-really-stretch-it government has very similar policies to our absolutely-populist-no-questions-about-it Polish government - bumping gas taxes included.
So how did your populists sell / justify / explain the gas taxes?
Fighting pollution, promoting alternative fuels, etc. The usual bullshit.
And why didn't you riot?
Because Poland. People here are just not that interested in making their lives better (and those who are have already moved abroad).
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@Gąska said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
@boomzilla said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
@Gąska said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
Your not-populist-at-all-unless-you-really-stretch-it government has very similar policies to our absolutely-populist-no-questions-about-it Polish government - bumping gas taxes included.
So how did your populists sell / justify / explain the gas taxes?
Fighting pollution, promoting alternative fuels, etc. The usual bullshit.
That sounds not at all populist, but I guess it's not like everything done by a populist has to be obviously populist.
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@remi said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
@Gąska So increasing gas taxes is a populist policy now? And your argument is that a party implementing the same, clearly non-populist, policy as another party that is itself labelled as populist, is a populist party?
Well, I thought it's your argument. Otherwise, why would you bring up Gilets jaunes as a proof of non-populism? Or are they protesting something else than government policies?
Now if you object to my characterization of the two main French anti-EU parties (Rassemblement National (ex-Front National, far right) and France Insoumise (far left)) as being also populist parties, please explain why, with details.
Because the world "populist" doesn't mean anything. It doesn't serve any purpose other than mark political enemies. It should never be used in a serious conversation. For any party.
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@Gąska said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
Well, I thought it's your argument. Otherwise, why would you bring up Gilets jaunes as a proof of non-populism? Or are they protesting something else than government policies?
People are protesting against some policies of the current French government. Another government is implementing similar policies. That other government is called populist.
Therefore, or so seems to go your argument, the French government is populist? You're not making any sense. You're that close from a Godwin point to illustrate more clearly how much you're not making any sense.
Now if you object to my characterization of the two main French anti-EU parties (Rassemblement National (ex-Front National, far right) and France Insoumise (far left)) as being also populist parties, please explain why, with details.
Because the world "populist" doesn't mean anything. It doesn't serve any purpose other than mark political enemies. It should never be used in a serious conversation. For any party.
The same could be said of liberal, conservative, socialist and many more words used in politics, including arguably even left and right (and I do remember some lengthy threads where you trolled everyone by discussing exactly that), but then if we accept that there is no more debate on political ideas since about all generic words used to describe political ideas are flawed in that way. Not that it would necessarily be a huge loss, but it's about as unrealistic as a flawless Windows update.
But even assuming I accept your premise, your whole argument is therefore "one group of people use a word to mark their political enemies as their political enemies". Wow, such a deep insight!
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@remi said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
@Gąska said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
Well, I thought it's your argument. Otherwise, why would you bring up Gilets jaunes as a proof of non-populism? Or are they protesting something else than government policies?
People are protesting against some policies of the current French government. Another government is implementing similar policies. That other government is called populist.
Therefore, or so seems to go your argument, the French government is populist?
No, no, no. Let's go back to your post. There's this party that's currently is making the French government. And for this party, in your own words, "you'd need a very weird definition of 'populist' to call them that." There must be a reason you think that. And the only part of your post that could be interpreted as the reason is "given the current climate (yellow vests etc.)" As if the current climate, and existence of yellow vests in particular, is enough proof to show they're not populist. Isn't that what you meant?
Now if you object to my characterization of the two main French anti-EU parties (Rassemblement National (ex-Front National, far right) and France Insoumise (far left)) as being also populist parties, please explain why, with details.
Because the world "populist" doesn't mean anything. It doesn't serve any purpose other than mark political enemies. It should never be used in a serious conversation. For any party.
The same could be said of liberal, conservative, socialist and many more words used in politics, including arguably even left and right
Yes to all that. But populism is the worst of them all, because the others at least pretend to indicate some ideology (which is also why every term you used has many political groups that identify with it, but populism has none). It's a politically correct version of "dickhead".
(and I do remember some lengthy threads where you trolled everyone by discussing exactly that)
I wasn't trolling. I really want some word I could use to group together all parties that plan to expand the government's influence over people's lives, and another for those who want the opposite. Right now, no such words exist.
but then if we accept that there is no more debate on political ideas since about all generic words used to describe political ideas are flawed in that way.
I wish we lived in a different world. But as you've seen in those debates you mentioned, it's impossible to make people make up their minds on what they actually mean by any of those words. And without knowing what anybody is talking about, you cannot make any sensible arguments, or at least you cannot communicate them to the other person. The debate is already dead, whether you like it or not.
But even assuming I accept your premise, your whole argument is therefore "one group of people use a word to mark their political enemies as their political enemies". Wow, such a deep insight!
I'm just as surprised how deep it seems. I mean, you weren't able to figure it out yourself!
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@Gąska I mentioned the yellow vests as the most likely thing you'd have heard about outside France, and because a popular protest against a government policy doesn't really go well with the image of a populist party. It's no proof, just an off-the-cuff remark about current events. If you expected a full treaty on current policies, well, though luck.
Read whatever you like about French politics and cite me policies of the current government that show they're populist. No-one (I guess you'll always find a couple of batshit crazies, but no opposition parties, be it those that are called or even call themselves populist, or other, does it) in France says they're populist. If you disagree, show us why.
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@pie_flavor said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
[Canada have] still got the Queen on their money
You are talking about the Queen of Canada, are you not? Why wouldn’t she be on Canadian money?
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@remi said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
Read whatever you like about French politics and cite me policies of the current government that show they're populist.
You're asking for the impossible. There's no such thing as a populist policy. Because there's no such thing as populism.
@remi said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
If you disagree, show us why.
I already did. But you decided to either not read it, or read and completely ignore it. I won't repeat myself.
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@remi said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
@admiral_p said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
If the EU starts making things as hard as they can, technicalities and all, they're going to regret it. They'll be seen as ruthless bastards led by the Germans and French and, "hey, maybe if we all get out of the EU, that'll show them!".
I don't know about the Germans, but I can tell you that in France, the mood is not "oh no the EU is going too hard on those poor Brits" but much, much more "ha! serves them right, those bloody rosbifs! Let it sink back in the ocean..."
Notwithstanding the widespread hate from populists of both sides towards the EU, mind you.
Considering that the EU is quite widely seen as "France and Germany, and others", I don't really expect the anti-EU sentiment to be as strong in France as it is elsewhere (especially the periphery and the Southern Mediterranean countries). Anyway France and England, as somebody else said, apart from a few instances of hate sex (eg. the Concorde, the Channel Tunnel), absolutely despise each other historically. Of course that's just a cliché, and we all know that. But in times of distress, clichés have a knack for being resurrected.
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And the "populist" slur is all too real. (Because it is now a slur). Bear in mind that, at least in Italy, many people nominally on the centre-left will routinely call for the ignorant plebs to be stripped of their voting rights. We're talking about people who say they want social justice and equality when they're asked about why they consider themselves centre-leftists. I can't even.
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@Gąska said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
No, no, no. Let's go back to your post.
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@boomzilla he can go back to my posts any number of times, but I can't do it even once?
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@remi said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
You're not making any sense.
Welcome to TDWTF!
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@Gąska said in Do .EU have a domain registered in the UK? .EU may not have long to reregister it elsewhere...:
But populism is the worst of them all, because the others at least pretend to indicate some ideology
a political approach that strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups.
Ordinary people in one region have different opinions than ordinary people in another region. Politicians in each region who seek to appeal to those ordinary people will promote different policies. Both are populist with regards to the people of their respective regions.