Windows finally gets a real PTY

@Zecc I wonder what "UX" means in that diagram. It cannot possibly be the standard meaning of User Experience, because you can't have an app for that.

heterodox

@Gąska said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

@Zecc I wonder what "UX" means in that diagram. It cannot possibly be the standard meaning of User Experience, because you can't have an app for that.

Sure you can; they're distinguishing between the Console Host functionality/window (which is the user experience) and command-line applications/remote applications which are "headless". I'd probably use "UI" instead of "UX", but in any case, if you read TFA they explain the diagram pretty well and you wouldn't have to wonder.

Gąska

@heterodox said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

I'd probably use "UI" instead of "UX"

Good for you, since "UI" and "UX" mean two entirely different things. Like, UI is software component, and UX is a field of study.

heterodox

@Gąska said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

Good for you, since "UI" and "UX" mean two entirely different things. Like, UI is software component, and UX is a field of study.

Can't have UX without a UI.

My point is that taking a diagram out of its context and then criticizing it is kind of silly.

Gąska

@heterodox I'm pretty sure the context doesn't make the use of "UX" in place of "UI" any more justified. Unless it's telemetry helpers, there is no way the name "Win32 Interactivity UX Services" makes sense, given what UX means.

heterodox

@Gąska I don't care enough about this argument to continue it.

In any case, I'm looking forward to PowerShell remoting being a little less janky, and also full color support in command-line output. I suspect the latter will be one of those things I never realized I was missing all my life.

sockpuppet7

@blakeyrat said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

That's not to say Windows has done everything right. But you have to remember the Windows story with automation went:
DOS -> CMD -> WSH (Windows Scripting Host, JScript or VBScript) -> PowerShell -> ... this?

WSH and PowerShell aren't a replacement for the console. They are a replacment for .bat files, that is unrelated.

The console is cmd.exe, that horrible interface, were copying and pasting need a special mode and insert unwanted line breaks, and is awkward to resize the window. It took them too long to upgrade it on windows 10.

Gąska

@heterodox said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

@Gąska I don't care enough about this argument to continue it.

A.k.a. "I know I'm wrong but I'm too proud to admit it."

heterodox

@sockpuppet7 said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

The console is cmd.exe, that horrible interface, were copying and pasting need a special mode and insert unwanted line breaks, and is awkward to resize the window. It took them too long to upgrade it on windows 10.

No. The linked articles are actually a good read and explain the difference between the command-line application and the presentation layer. cmd.exe runs "headless" and just calls console APIs. The Console Host is what's been suffering from all the problems you note. That's why powershell.exe has the same problems (though its shortcuts typically put it in QuickEdit mode by default, unlike cmd).

Gąska

@sockpuppet7 said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

@blakeyrat said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

That's not to say Windows has done everything right. But you have to remember the Windows story with automation went:
DOS -> CMD -> WSH (Windows Scripting Host, JScript or VBScript) -> PowerShell -> ... this?

WSH and PowerShell aren't a replacement for the console. They are a replacment for .bat files, that is unrelated.

CMD is shell, not console. Saying WSH replaces CMD is correct.

sockpuppet7

@HardwareGeek said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

The word you want is "implying." "Implicate" means "show (someone) to be involved in a crime," which may be what you're implying about MS, but probably not.

@lolwhat said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

You mean implying.

Implicating you would see less of that after pointing out it's wrong.

blakeyrat

@sockpuppet7 said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

WSH and PowerShell aren't a replacement for the console. They are a replacment for .bat files, that is unrelated.

You are a crazy-person and this is gibberish.

Gąska

Huh, I wonder where the second downvote came from.

dkf

@Zecc said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

Flat OS and app interface elements, but nicely shaded diagrams. What a world!

That's just a bunch of defaults for Powerpoint. Doing anything else takes effort…

Gribnit

@heterodox YES YOU CAN. you have the UX called none, you have to have a zero after all.

Gąska

@Gribnit s/none/git/

Gribnit

@Gąska You have to be Linus to use git, or at least be enough Linus for your use case, then it all makes sense.

M_Adams

@Gąska said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

@Gribnit s/none/~~git~~@Gribnit/

FTFY

pie_flavor

@sockpuppet7 said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

@blakeyrat said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

That's not to say Windows has done everything right. But you have to remember the Windows story with automation went:
DOS -> CMD -> WSH (Windows Scripting Host, JScript or VBScript) -> PowerShell -> ... this?

WSH and PowerShell aren't a replacement for the console. They are a replacment for .bat files, that is unrelated.

The console is cmd.exe, that horrible interface, were copying and pasting need a special mode and insert unwanted line breaks, and is awkward to resize the window. It took them too long to upgrade it on windows 10.

Except copying/pasting works on PowerShell and not in CMD. And resizing is janky in CMD and not in PowerShell. And PowerShell is a scripting language, so actually .ps1 files are a replacement for .bat files.

Have you considered the possibility that you are wrong?

sockpuppet7

@pie_flavor said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

Have you considered the possibility that you are wrong?

Yes, I was wrong once, when I thought I did a mistake.

@pie_flavor said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

Except copying/pasting works on PowerShell and not in CMD. And resizing is janky in CMD and not in PowerShell. And PowerShell is a scripting language, so actually .ps1 files are a replacement for .bat files.

IIRC powershell was as bad as cmd when I tried it on windows 7. I don't use powershell for anything because the infosec morons disable the ExecutionPolicy for all our domain. IMO Microsoft killed powershell with this ExecutionPolicity thing. Everyone can still run VBS, so that is what I use for some steps on my build scripts.

pie_flavor

@sockpuppet7 Just make a shortcut powershell --ExecutionPolicy Bypass and run scripts from within the window it opens.

Tsaukpaetra

@pie_flavor said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

Except copying/pasting works on PowerShell and not in CMD.

False.

@pie_flavor said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

And resizing is janky in CMD and not in PowerShell.

False since Windows 10 (I think Anniversary Update? There was a big to-do about it).

@pie_flavor said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

Have you considered the possibility that you are wrong?

Have you?

Tsaukpaetra

@pie_flavor said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

@sockpuppet7 Just make a shortcut powershell --ExecutionPolicy Bypass and run scripts from within the window it opens.

Oh darn, and here I thought you were going to provide a nice how-to registry entry that would do the same. My bad.

pie_flavor

@Tsaukpaetra Well, the registry path is HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\PowerShell\1\ShellIds\Microsoft.PowerShell@ExecutionPolicy. But that's assuming you have registry access.

Tsaukpaetra

@pie_flavor said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

But that's assuming you have registry access.

The current user should always have access to HKEY_CURRENT_USER. If they don't, accccessing powershell is the learst of thieir problems.

pie_flavor

@Tsaukpaetra No I mean if it's set in Group Policy then I don't think you can change it.

pie_flavor

@Tsaukpaetra said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

learst of thieir

@Tsaukpaetra said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

accccessing

Tsaukpaetra

@pie_flavor you want to buy my a better input nterfacee?

dkf

@Tsaukpaetra said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

you want to buy my a better input nterfacee?

How much does Walmart charge for a cheap USB keyboard anyway?

pie_flavor

@Tsaukpaetra said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

nterfacee

You've got a keyboard and a mobile keyboard. That's what I've got too, and I never make any errors.

Tsaukpaetra

@dkf said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

@Tsaukpaetra said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

you want to buy my a better input nterfacee?

How much does Walmart charge for a cheap USB keyboard anyway?

$16

Tsaukpaetra

@pie_flavor said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

@Tsaukpaetra said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

nterfacee

You've got a keyboard and a mobile keyboard. That's what I've got too, and I never make any errors.

You assume I lost only on mobile

sockpuppet7

@pie_flavor None of these work here. I'm surprise I have permission to open notepad.exe on these computers.

TimeBandit

@sockpuppet7 said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

I'm surprise I have permission to open notepad.exe

Proof that they hate you

Zecc

@sockpuppet7 Do you have permission to delete files?

pie_flavor

@sockpuppet7 said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

@pie_flavor None of these work here. I'm surprise I have permission to open notepad.exe on these computers.

And your registry attempt is through powershell, yes? Not regedit? Because you can't use regedit without local admin but you can still edit HKCU.

robo2

@pie_flavor or check what you can do using reg.exe. Or regedt32.exe (the 32bit version of regedit.exe). In my work environment I can't use regedit.exe, but the others work just fine...

Gribnit

@robo2 said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

the others work just fine...

(sneh sneh sneh)

TimeBandit

@robo2 This just proves how Windows security is very well engineered

blakeyrat

@TimeBandit said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

@robo2 This just proves how Windows security is very well engineered

Has nothing to do with Windows security. It enforces permissions on Registry keys just fine.

The only lesson here is "if you want to prevent X, tell the OS to prevent X instead of preventing the user from launching one-of-many applications that could be used to do X."

pie_flavor

@TimeBandit said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

@robo2 This just proves how Windows security is very well engineered

Seriously? God forbid you have access to a program that can edit things that you have access to edit.

pie_flavor

@robo2 PS works well too. sp HKLM:\Software\Microsoft\PowerShell\1\ShellIds\Microsoft.PowerShell ExecutionPolicy Unrestricted.

topspin

@Tsaukpaetra said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

@pie_flavor you want to buy my a better input nterfacee?

I mean, I'm pretty sure you're voluntarily subjecting yourself to that thing you posted where there's like twelve keys in the area of one finger tip.

sockpuppet7

@pie_flavor said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

@sockpuppet7 said in Windows finally gets a real PTY:

@pie_flavor None of these work here. I'm surprise I have permission to open notepad.exe on these computers.

And your registry attempt is through powershell, yes? Not regedit? Because you can't use regedit without local admin but you can still edit HKCU.

Whatever infosec did overrides whatever you try writing at HKCU. And I wouldn't want to have to guide everyone that tries to run it through these workarounds, when wsh just works.