Should everyone learn to code?
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@boomzilla said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@HardwareGeek said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@Carnage said in Should everyone learn to code?:
I am entirely disinterested in both forms of chasing a piece of leather across a lawn
That's probably a good thing. @boomzilla tends to object to such things.
Best to chase smaller, harder bits of gutta percha across a lawn.
Personally, I've never found much enjoyment in clubbing gutties with persimmon.
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@boomzilla said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@hardwaregeek said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@carnage said in Should everyone learn to code?:
I am entirely disinterested in both forms of chasing a piece of leather across a lawn
That's probably a good thing. @boomzilla tends to object to such things.
Best to chase smaller, harder bits of gutta percha across a lawn.
With all due respect, I must disagree most emphatically. The excitement of that is about on par with watching paint dry or watching the lawn grow.
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@djls45 said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@boomzilla said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@HardwareGeek said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@Carnage said in Should everyone learn to code?:
I am entirely disinterested in both forms of chasing a piece of leather across a lawn
That's probably a good thing. @boomzilla tends to object to such things.
Best to chase smaller, harder bits of gutta percha across a lawn.
Personally, I've never found much enjoyment in clubbing gutties with persimmon.
I misread the last word, and thought you're very much into clubbing gutties without permission.
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The answer to this thread is "yes". Everyone has to learn addition and writing. Everyone should also have to learn basic logic and simple programming. How much and what they do with it is a different matter, but the basics? Absolutely.
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@hardwaregeek said in Should everyone learn to code?:
There are multiple aspects to "music," and they vary in the ease with which they can be learned. Are you talking about music appreciation — learing to understand "the value and merit of different styles of music." Learning this requires little more than listening more-or-less carefully to different styles of music. However, not everyone is willing to do this — "music of dead white guys is culturally oppressive and irrelevant," or whatever — therefore, they can't learn it.
Ok first of all-- seriously? "Culturally oppressive?" Get off of Tumblr and take a breath, christ.
Secondly, you're not talking about someone who can't learn music, you're talking about someone who doesn't want to learn music.
If people don't want to learn how to play a piano, fine. They don't have to. Whatever. That doesn't change the fact that everybody can be taught to play a piano acceptably.
@hardwaregeek said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Also, some people are more intuitive than logical. "I shouldn't have to tell you what to do; you should know what I want and just do it." Again, using my ex-wife as an example, she expected people to read her mind. And she expected computers to "not make me explain everything, just do what I want," too. And until we get neural interfaces so that the computer can literally read the user's mind, that's not going to happen. Until then, programming (and even using) a computer requires breaking a task into a sequence of actions, and some people don't want to think that much; they just want a "magic happens" button.
Ok?
I'm sorry, did I post something like, "everybody must be forced to program a computer at gunpoint and if they don't they should be instantly murdered?" Is that what you're replying to? Because I have no idea what this has to do with anything I've typed in this thread.
Or to reply slightly more constructively:
I'm sure people learning physics, math, 19th century literature, film history, etc. also want a "magic happens" button. How the fuck is that unique to programming a computer? What does it have to do with "should everybody learn to code"? The above-listed things are also things that everybody should learn.
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@blakeyrat said in Should everyone learn to code?:
That doesn't change the fact that everybody can be taught to play a piano acceptably.
That's an interesting use of the word "fact."
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@blakeyrat said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Ok first of all-- seriously? "Culturally oppressive?" Get off of Tumblr and take a breath, christ.
Hey, not me. I love music by dead white guys. (And dead black guys, to the point of being accused of cultural appropriation because my skin isn't dark enough to use American folk melodies that I grew up listening to and singing in my own music.) But there are Tumblrinas that think that way. Decolonize everything!
@blakeyrat said in Should everyone learn to code?:
That doesn't change the fact that everybody can be taught to play a piano acceptably.
Even people with cerebral palsy? Or spinal cord injuries? Or hearing impairment to the point they can't hear whether the notes they play are correct or not? (And before you say Beethoven, he was an exquisitely skilled performer and composer before he lost his hearing. He had enough experience that he could "hear" music in his head without having to hear it physically.)
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@hardwaregeek said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Hey, not me. I love music by dead white guys. (And dead black guys, to the point of being accused of cultural appropriation because my skin isn't dark enough to use American folk melodies in my own music.) But there are Tumblrinas that think that way. Decolonize everything!
There are also people who believe the earth is flat, but could we have a discussion rooted in reality please?
@hardwaregeek said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Even people with cerebral palsy? Or spinal cord injuries? Or hearing impairment to the point they can't hear whether the notes they play are correct or not? (And before you say Beethoven, he was an exquisitely skilled performer and composer before he lost his hearing. He had enough experience that he could "hear" music in his head without having to hear it physically.)
Jesus Christ. Fuck off if you're not going to debate in good faith.
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@blakeyrat said in Should everyone learn to code?:
There are also people who believe the earth is flat, but could we have a discussion rooted in reality please?
We will if you will!
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@gąska said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@thecpuwizard there's coke vape?
Yes, it’s called crack.
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@blakeyrat said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Fuck off if you're not going to debate in good faith.
You're the one who said everybody can be taught. If you really meant "everybody who isn't physically impaired," that's fine (although in this forum, you really should be precise in saying what you mean, because you know it's going to be nit-picked). I would still argue that one cannot teach someone who is unwilling to learn, and that there are many such people. I would also argue that there are people who are temperamentally unsuited to learning certain subjects (whether that is music or computers), and they will struggle to reach an "acceptable" level of skill even if they want to learn.
Should everyone be taught the basic principles of logic, cause-and-effect (which some people never seem to understand), and computer fundamentals? In this age of ubiquitous computers, it would be hard to argue against it. But to expect everyone to be able to do even minimal programming (even recording Excel or Word macros) to make their own lives easier is not realistic, in my opinion and experience.
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@hardwaregeek said in Should everyone learn to code?:
You're the one who said everybody can be taught. If you really meant "everybody who isn't physically impaired," that's fine (although in this forum, you really should be precise in saying what you mean, because you know it's going to be nit-picked).
Right; it's my fault you're being a dickweed. Obviously.
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@blakeyrat technically, yes.
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@blakeyrat said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Ok first of all-- seriously? "Culturally oppressive?" Get off of Tumblr and take a breath, christ.
How I miss believing that this wasn't a thing outside of Tumblr.
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@hardwaregeek said in Should everyone learn to code?:
The excitement of that is about on par with watching paint dry or watching the lawn grow.
The whole point of such excitement is to encourage you to dally in the bar, and then take a good long nap in the sunshine while the match is on without needing to do anything dreary like actually paying attention to the game.
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@hardwaregeek said in Should everyone learn to code?:
I would still argue that one cannot teach someone who is unwilling to learn
That's why it's nice to get the very basics in when children are still young; that's when they're pretty strongly willing to learn (because that's how young brains really are wired to work).
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@blakeyrat said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@hardwaregeek said in Should everyone learn to code?:
You're the one who said everybody can be taught. If you really meant "everybody who isn't physically impaired," that's fine (although in this forum, you really should be precise in saying what you mean, because you know it's going to be nit-picked).
Right; it's my fault you're being a dickweed. Obviously.
No, dickweedery is entirely the responsibility of the dickweed. However, if you know rapists (dickweeds) are lurking in a dark alley (forum), it's unwise to walk down the alley in a miniskirt (post easily refutable facts).
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@djls45 said in Should everyone learn to code?:
clubbing gutties
Is that what they're calling it now?
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@gąska said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Maybe in your country. Over here, playing football is one of the first skills every boy learns
I don't think every one of them is professional level.
Everyone can also code to some capacity. I mean, copy pasting
c = a + b;isn't hard.
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@blakeyrat said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Jesus Christ. Fuck off if you're not going to debate in good faith.
There are also some people that just can't maintain rhythm to save their lives.
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@xaade said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@gąska said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Maybe in your country. Over here, playing football is one of the first skills every boy learns
I don't think every one of them is professional level.
I don't think that was the topic.
Everyone can also code to some capacity. I mean, copy pasting
c = a + b;isn't hard.No one disagrees with that. The discussion is about how much more an average child can do, and how much they need it.
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@xaade said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@blakeyrat said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Jesus Christ. Fuck off if you're not going to debate in good faith.
There are also some people that just can't maintain rhythm to save their lives.
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@gąska said in Should everyone learn to code?:
The discussion is about how much more an average child can do, and how much they need it.
Do they need it in addition to learning advanced algebra and geometry?
We already have critical thinking covered, so that's not a justification for programming.
So we need a reason that demonstrates everyone will benefit from learning programming. I mean, I can say it would allow people to do more advanced things on their computer to save time, but that's about it. The average person won't go further than organizing files.
I think it's much more important to use that time to teach finances and workplace soft skills.
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@xaade said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Do they need it in addition to learning advanced algebra and geometry?
Depending on the person, they might need it more than geometry. It's certainly more practical.
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@magus said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@xaade said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Do they need it in addition to learning advanced algebra and geometry?
Depending on the person, they might need it more than geometry. It's certainly more practical.
There's plenty of jobs where high school geometry is more useful than basic programming. There are also jobs where programming is more useful than geometry, but most people benefit from neither.
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@gąska said in Should everyone learn to code?:
most people benefit from neither.
Name one job where there is ZERO benefit from having at least some rudimentary knowledge (especially of geometry).
[And this does not even include potential benefits that are outside employment]
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@thecpuwizard said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@gąska said in Should everyone learn to code?:
most people benefit from neither.
Name one job where there is ZERO benefit from having at least some rudimentary knowledge (especially of geometry).
[And this does not even include potential benefits that are outside employment]
Grunt laborer for a landscaping company. Granted these kinds of skills would be important if that person wanted to move up to some sort of supervisor or job-getter/sales role.
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@gąska And the point of schooling, as far as I'm concerned, is to give you a base of knowledge such that whatever job you end up with, you aren't completely in the dark.
So again, very basic programming is a very good idea to teach people early. There's a good chance they won't use it, but maybe they will.
We also currently have a culture perfectly content with stereotyping programmers pretty severely, when we know in this industry that that isn't right. Some of the best developers I've ever known didn't fit at all what people generally assume programmers are like. And yet many people don't think they'd like being like/around programmers they've seen on TV. For the sake of our industry, more people need to be shown what boring, not-particularly-smart most programming work is. More people need to be given a chance to figure out if they can do it before social stigma sets in.
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@mikehurley said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Grunt laborer for a landscaping company.
Should still be familiar with the concepts of a straight line, and other shapes. :)
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@thecpuwizard said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@mikehurley said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Grunt laborer for a landscaping company.
Should still be familiar with the concepts of a straight line, and other shapes. :)
(to grunt): Go dig the hole for this tree 10ft from the corner of the lot. It needs to be centered.
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@mikehurley said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Grunt laborer for a landscaping company.
They have more use for geometry than me as a computer programmer.
For one thing, they need to be able to mark out a rectangle with straight sides.
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@blakeyrat said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@mikehurley said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Grunt laborer for a landscaping company.
They have more use for geometry than me as a computer programmer.
For one thing, they need to be able to mark out a rectangle with straight sides.
I guess it depends on where the line is between "knowledge basics you generally pick up" and "stuff I know because I had a non-trivial education in geometry". I guess I'd expect somebody w/o a geometry education to know what a rectangle, square, and triangle are.
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@mikehurley Geometry is geometry. I'm not sure exactly what distinction you're trying to draw.
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@dcon said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@thecpuwizard said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@mikehurley said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Grunt laborer for a landscaping company.
Should still be familiar with the concepts of a straight line, and other shapes. :)
(to grunt): Go dig the hole for this tree 10ft from the corner of the lot. It needs to be centered.Perhaps I'm giving the grunt too little credit, but I'd expect
to say, "Cava un hoyo aquí," after having measured it himself.
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@hardwaregeek said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@dcon said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@thecpuwizard said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@mikehurley said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Grunt laborer for a landscaping company.
Should still be familiar with the concepts of a straight line, and other shapes. :)
(to grunt): Go dig the hole for this tree 10ft from the corner of the lot. It needs to be centered.Perhaps I'm giving the grunt too little credit, but I'd expect
to say, "Cava un hoyo aquí," after having measured it himself.That's first-day-on-job grunt (or frist-week). And I was providing translation services.
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@thecpuwizard said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@gąska said in Should everyone learn to code?:
most people benefit from neither.
Name one job where there is ZERO benefit from having at least some rudimentary knowledge (especially of geometry).
Call center drone. Truck driver. Salesperson/cashier. Housecleaner. Nanny. Bouncer.
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And the question is always: at what cost? As a teacher, I see kids in high school who can barely read anything moderately technical, can't do basic arithmetic, and know basically nothing about common things. Things they should have learned in elementary school.
So if we're now going to require coding classes, that's going to take time away from other important things. And probably be done just as poorly as their current schooling.
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@magus said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@gąska And the point of schooling, as far as I'm concerned, is to give you a base of knowledge such that whatever job you end up with, you aren't completely in the dark.
If that's the goal, then our education system has been failing horribly ever since its inception.
So again, very basic programming is a very good idea to teach people early. There's a good chance they won't use it, but maybe they will.
You can make this argument for everything. "Let's teach those kids how to draw with charcoal on the off chance they end up having to draw with charcoal on the job." "Let's teach them about internal structure of bacteria on the off chance they'll need to know this stuff for their job." "Let's teach them the difference between romanticism and positivism on the off chance this will be what they end up doing." "Let's teach them about general relativity." "Various ancient Egyptian gods." "Electron subshells." "Medieval music notation."
To be fair, I actually had to learn all of the above in high school (including programming), except for charcoal drawing which I learned in primary school. Programming is only marginally more likely to be relevant to your job than those things. And in case any of these turns out to be relevant, it can be taught during the first semester at college better than it can ever be during entire K12. Schools are already critically overstuffed with topics that will be useless for 99% graduates - we really don't need another one.
Teaching kids what they'll probably need when they get a job is very similar to future-proofing applications, and has all the same problems as future-proofing.
We also currently have a culture perfectly content with stereotyping programmers pretty severely, when we know in this industry that that isn't right.
We also have stereotypes of truck drivers. But no one is calling for truck driving lessons for grade schoolers.
For the sake of our industry, more people need to be shown what boring, not-particularly-smart most programming work is. More people need to be given a chance to figure out if they can do it before social stigma sets in.
For the sake of my salary, I hope the status quo never changes. Although the odds are very slim.
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@benjamin-hall said in Should everyone learn to code?:
And the question is always: at what cost? As a teacher, I see kids in high school who can barely read anything moderately technical, can't do basic arithmetic, and know basically nothing about common things. Things they should have learned in elementary school.
So if we're now going to require coding classes, that's going to take time away from other important things. And probably be done just as poorly as their current schooling.
Unrelated to the topic but related to your post: maybe what we need is less artistic literature, and more technical writing? Instead of 3 Shakespeare's plays, make it 1 Shakespeare's play, 1 service manual, and 1 Act of Parliament?
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@gąska said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@benjamin-hall said in Should everyone learn to code?:
And the question is always: at what cost? As a teacher, I see kids in high school who can barely read anything moderately technical, can't do basic arithmetic, and know basically nothing about common things. Things they should have learned in elementary school.
So if we're now going to require coding classes, that's going to take time away from other important things. And probably be done just as poorly as their current schooling.
Unrelated to the topic but related to your post: maybe what we need is less artistic literature, and more technical writing? Instead of 3 Shakespeare's plays, make it 1 Shakespeare's play, 1 service manual, and 1 Act of Parliament?
The problem is that all of those need the same thing--content knowledge. Unless you have a wide range of facts you know, reading anything of more than moderate complexity is not going to happen. So we should be teaching (from an early age) lots more content. Along with letting kids (especially young ones) experience different things. Kids who don't know reading strategies and have never read that type of literature before but do know the subject matter read better (higher comprehension and speed) than those who have read that type of literature before and know the strategies but are unfamiliar with the subject matter.
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@gąska said in Should everyone learn to code?:
For the sake of my salary, I hope the status quo never changes. Although the odds are very slim.
I cannot convey how completely awful that statement is.
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@gąska said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Truck driver.
Truck drivers with no knowledge of geometry are the worst. They take out signs and clip other cars because they don't know how to turn with a trailer. And run for the hills if you see one in reverse!
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@magus said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@gąska said in Should everyone learn to code?:
For the sake of my salary, I hope the status quo never changes. Although the odds are very slim.
I cannot convey how completely awful that statement is.
It's your fault for not defining "sake of industry". Programmers make the industry, so I'm going to assume that the sake of industry is the sake of programmers, and in programmers' best interest is LESS programmers - just like in every other profession.
@benjamin-hall said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@gąska said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@benjamin-hall said in Should everyone learn to code?:
And the question is always: at what cost? As a teacher, I see kids in high school who can barely read anything moderately technical, can't do basic arithmetic, and know basically nothing about common things. Things they should have learned in elementary school.
So if we're now going to require coding classes, that's going to take time away from other important things. And probably be done just as poorly as their current schooling.
Unrelated to the topic but related to your post: maybe what we need is less artistic literature, and more technical writing? Instead of 3 Shakespeare's plays, make it 1 Shakespeare's play, 1 service manual, and 1 Act of Parliament?
The problem is that all of those need the same thing--content knowledge. Unless you have a wide range of facts you know, reading anything of more than moderate complexity is not going to happen. So we should be teaching (from an early age) lots more content. Along with letting kids (especially young ones) experience different things. Kids who don't know reading strategies and have never read that type of literature before but do know the subject matter read better (higher comprehension and speed) than those who have read that type of literature before and know the strategies but are unfamiliar with the subject matter.
My experience says otherwise. There's actually very little domain knowledge required to understand a legal contract, yet most people struggle very hard with them. Technical writings are a little different, but I mentioned service manuals for a reason - all you really need to know is what is screwdriver and what is volt - everything else is explained in-line or in glossary. It's the composition and flow of technical documents that people have the biggest difficulty with.
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@mott555 said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Truck drivers with no knowledge of geometry are the worst.
"Stop sign? I don't know what shape that is, full speed ahead!"
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@magus said in Should everyone learn to code?:
I cannot convey how completely awful that statement is.
At least he's honest about it.
You'll see idiots argue about how horrible H1B visas are for days without ever admitting that they're either racist, greedy, or both.
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@gąska said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Truck driver.
Truck drivers? You're one of those assholes who cuts corners and almost nails people in the left-turn lane, right?
Fortunately, most truck drivers know enough geometry to make nice wide turns and keep their trailers well-clear of the roadway.
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@mott555 said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@gąska said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Truck driver.
Truck drivers with no knowledge of geometry are the worst. They take out signs and clip other cars because they don't know how to turn with a trailer. And run for the hills if you see one in reverse!
But is it geometry, or just spatial thinking?
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@gąska said in Should everyone learn to code?:
You can make this argument for everything. "Let's teach those kids how to draw with charcoal on the off chance they end up having to draw with charcoal on the job." "Let's teach them about internal structure of bacteria on the off chance they'll need to know this stuff for their job." "Let's teach them the difference between romanticism and positivism on the off chance this will be what they end up doing." "Let's teach them about general relativity." "Various ancient Egyptian gods." "Electron subshells." "Medieval music notation."
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
- Robert A. Heinlein
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@gąska said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@mott555 said in Should everyone learn to code?:
@gąska said in Should everyone learn to code?:
Truck driver.
Truck drivers with no knowledge of geometry are the worst. They take out signs and clip other cars because they don't know how to turn with a trailer. And run for the hills if you see one in reverse!
But is it geometry, or just spatial thinking?
