Why do people do this? Episode 2
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@pie_flavor And PowerShell as the default shell. Watch people's heads explode.
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@anonymous234 Why? That's a good thing. Bash sucks and CMD is worse.
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@timebandit Needs barbed wire for extra clueness.
[/Negan]
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@pie_flavor said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
That's a good thing
Yes. sh/bash is the core piece of all Linux systems (after the Linux kernel itself) and has been so since the very beginning. Discarding it in favor of an object-oriented, .NET based thing that Micro$oft just whipped out in a year is the ultimate insult for the FOSS nerds.
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@pleegwat said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
You prefer emacs?
I used to, in my Linux days. Now I tend to use nano in a terminal.
You filthy...
I just washed, I’ll have you know.
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@pie_flavor said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
@anonymous234 Why? That's a good thing. Bash sucks and CMD is worse.
CMD supports the
&&
,||
, and<
operators from bash. Powershell doesn't for some unknown reason.
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@ben_lubar said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
for some unknown reason
like not passing strings around between commands but objects?
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@luhmann said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
@ben_lubar said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
for some unknown reason
like not passing strings around between commands but objects?
It supports the
>
operator and the other two have absolutely nothing to do with how it passes input.
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@ben_lubar Yes, because Bash is a different language. However, you have
-or
,-and
,-xor
, etc.
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@pie_flavor said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
@ben_lubar Yes, because Bash is a different language. However, you have
-or
,-and
,-xor
, etc.command-one --some-arg --some-other-arg || command-to-run-if-it-fails
command-one --some-arg --some-other-arg -or command-to-run-if-it-fails
???
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@ben_lubar Oh. That's a weird operator.
Command-One -SomeArg -SomeOtherArg; if ($?) { Command-ToRunIfItFails }
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@pie_flavor said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
@ben_lubar Oh. That's a weird operator.
Command-One -SomeArg -SomeOtherArg; if ($?) { Command-ToRunIfItFails }
No, that's
Foo && Bar
. If$?
is true, the command succeeded.And instead of converting
Foo || Bar
orFoo && Bar
to what would normally be expected, it gives you this:The token '||' is not a valid statement separator in this version. + CategoryInfo : ParserError: (:) [], ParseException + FullyQualifiedErrorId : InvalidEndOfLine
Which strongly implies to me that it knows
||
is an operator and is just being a dick about it.
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@ben_lubar They're reserved for later. Same reason
const
andgoto
is in Java.
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This powershell/cmd discussion reminds me of what happens when Microsoft unilaterally replaced "open CMD here" with "open PowerShell here". It so happened that the command I needed to use when I noticed that was
MKLINK
. Which, for those who don't get the joke, doesn't exist in PowerShell. Cue my forcefully restoring the registry entry...
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@medinoc You're kidding, right?
First, that's a configuration thing. It's whatever you set the power user menu item to be. If +X has Windows PowerShell instead of Command Prompt, then shift right click is Open PowerShell window here instead of Open command prompt here. This is configured in Settings > Personalization > Taskbar > Replace Command Prompt with Windows Powershell.
Second,New-Item -Type HardLink -Path path\to\link -Value path\to\target
And
-Type
can also be replaced withSymbolicLink
andJunction
as well as the obvious ones ofFile
andDirectory
.
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@pie_flavor said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
@medinoc You're kidding, right?
First, that's a configuration thing. It's whatever you set the power user menu item to be.
Second,New-Item -Type HardLink -Path path\to\link -Value path\to\target
And
-Type
can also be replaced withSymbolicLink
andJunction
as well as the obvious ones ofFile
andDirectory
.All I know is, "I type
MKLINK /s file1 file2
" as usual and powershell (which replaced CMD (at least in folder context menus) without me asking) pukes an error. If you're going to make a breaking change, don't push it behind my back.Secondly, what is this "power user menu item" option and where is it? I guess it's related to that mysterious new value that appeared in the CMD and Powershell folder association registry key? (PS: Full disclosure, I'm not on my Win10 PC right now so I can't check what you say about the option)
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@medinoc Or you could type
New-Item -Type SymbolicLink -Value file2 file1
, which has the benefits of not being located within a garbage shell.
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@pie_flavor said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
@anonymous234 Why? That's a good thing. Bash sucks
With you so far...
and CMD is worse.
At least CMD has mnemonics that make sense.
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@masonwheeler Powershell is great for pipelining, full stop. Bash is great for pipelining, if you can remember to insert all the little file path string manipulation bits. CMD contains the pipeline operator, but good luck finding a use for it.
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@pie_flavor said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
@medinoc You're kidding, right?
First, that's a configuration thing. It's whatever you set the power user menu item to be. If +X has Windows PowerShell instead of Command Prompt, then shift right click is Open PowerShell window here instead of Open command prompt here. This is configured in Settings > Personalization > Taskbar > Replace Command Prompt with Windows Powershell.No, that setting only changes the +X shortcut, there is NO option to change the Shift+RightClick menu shortcut other than manually editing the registry.
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@lb_ Used to be. Must've changed it. Yeah, I guess that's a WTF.
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@pie_flavor as far as I remember, it was Command Prompt before the original Creator's Update, and the original Creator's Update changed it to PowerShell by default unless you mucked about in the registry (which I did at first, but now I've discovered that you can just type
cmd
in the address bar of the explorer window).
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@lb_ said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
@pie_flavor as far as I remember, it was Command Prompt before the original Creator's Update, and the original Creator's Update changed it to PowerShell by default unless you mucked about in the registry (which I did at first, but now I've discovered that you can just type
cmd
in the address bar of the explorer window).You can type
cmd
in a PowerShell window to get a blue command prompt, orbash
to get a blue bash prompt.
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@medinoc said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
This powershell/cmd discussion reminds me of what happens when Microsoft unilaterally replaced "open CMD here" with "open PowerShell here". I
@medinoc said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
Cue my forcefully restoring the registry entry...
They've had a UI for that since well before the default was changed. In the Taskbar settings:
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@dcon said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
They've had a UI for that since well before the default was changed. In the Taskbar settings
@lb_ said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
No, that setting only changes the +X shortcut, there is NO option to change the Shift+RightClick menu shortcut other than manually editing the registry.
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@lb_ said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
@dcon said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
They've had a UI for that since well before the default was changed. In the Taskbar settings
@lb_ said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
No, that setting only changes the +X shortcut, there is NO option to change the Shift+RightClick menu shortcut other than manually editing the registry.
Well, that's all I've ever used to change it.
(oh, and I notice no difference between right-click and shift+RC)
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@pie_flavor said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
Or you could type
New-Item -Type SymbolicLink -Value file2 file1
, which has the benefits of not being located within a garbage shell.Fucking hell. You need an IDE just to be able to discover all the twiddly bits in there…
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@dkf While on Linux you're stuck with this complicated mess
# ln -s {/path/to/file-name} {link-name}
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@The_Quiet_One said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
[Dev clicks on Tools -> Customize...]
[Dev clicks on Tools -> Options -> Text Editor]
[Dev checks and immediately hits OK]
[Dev clicks 'Restart Visual Studio']
[Dev loads the solution and then clicks on an xaml file]
[Dev clicks on Tools -> Customize...]This dev has a bad case of "clicky-fingers". It's a common affliction among folks who think that they know all but one step (which you are supposed to provide) of what needs to be done and among people who expect an immediate response from the computer system when they try something.
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@timebandit said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
While on Linux you're stuck with this complicated mess
Well… you'd have a point if it wasn't for the fact that there's probably a lot more different types of things that
New-Item
can make (“New-Item
”? Really? Can you be any more generic and difficult to remember? Why not just admit defeat and say “New-Thingumajig
”?) and that makes recall much harder. By contrast,ln
just makes links, and so is quite a bit easier to remember (for other stuff there'smknod
and that one really isn't remembered by many people).
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@dcon said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
@pleegwat said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
@gąska Aren't all problems solved with
vi /var/opt/application/etc/fubar/alternate/advanced.cfg
?Dude.
vim
. vi is soyesterdayyesterdecade.FTFY :P
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Didn't think the was needed
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@timebandit I suspected that you were but I got a nice rant out of it anyway.
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@dkf And I got a smile reading your rant.
Win-Win :smiling_face_with_open_mouth:
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@dkf No, there's tab completion. And also case insensitivity and a bunch of aliases.
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@dkf 'Item', in powershell, means filesystem element. So you have
New-Item
,Get-ChildItem
,Get-Item
,Get-ItemProperty
, etc. It is an umbrella term which can refer to files, directories, symlinks, hardlinks, and junctions.
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@djls45 said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
@dcon said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
@pleegwat said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
@gąska Aren't all problems solved with
vi /var/opt/application/etc/fubar/alternate/advanced.cfg
?Dude.
vim
. vi is soyesterdayyesterdecade.FTFY :P
Nah. "Yester-" suggests it was only one before the current one.
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@masonwheeler Yestercentury, then? :P
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@djls45 I think you're just supposed to yell about the 1970s.
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@boomzilla mac classic
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@dkf said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
Fucking hell. You need an IDE just to be able to discover all the twiddly bits in there…
Good thing it comes with one (PowerShell ISE).
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@dcon said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
@lb_ said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
@dcon said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
They've had a UI for that since well before the default was changed. In the Taskbar settings
@lb_ said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
No, that setting only changes the +X shortcut, there is NO option to change the Shift+RightClick menu shortcut other than manually editing the registry.
Well, that's all I've ever used to change it.
(oh, and I notice no difference between right-click and shift+RC)
No, Shift+Right Click in a folder in Windows Explorer:
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@lb_ said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
No, Shift+Right Click in a folder in Windows Explorer:
Ah. TIL. Never knew there was a shift-rc menu that was different from the rc one. I've never made use of any of those one-a-shell-here things.
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@the_quiet_one said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
@pjh said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
PEBCAK. This phenomenon should not be new to you.
It's not. I've lived with this same kind of conversation for years. I just chose to rant about it now.
Hmmmmm, pretty apt username you have there...
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@the_quiet_one Is this a developer.
In situations like this, I would just rattle off what I wanted to say and go back to my desk.
If they have follow up questions or forget some of the steps, they would have to come to me and then wait for me to finish what I started doing, before I helped them out again.
People who are asking for your time always have to be made to feel the weight of the time they took. Otherwise, they start taking you for granted.
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@cartman82 said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
@the_quiet_one Is this a developer.
Yes
In situations like this, I would just rattle off what I wanted to say and go back to my desk.
If they have follow up questions or forget some of the steps, they would have to come to me and then wait for me to finish what I started doing, before I helped them out again.
It's a discussion. It'd be rude to just leave with him telling me something mid-sentence. And in order for me to help him, I need to know some additional information. Had he just answered me, it would have been a 30 second conversation. He dragged it out to about 3 minutes. Big whoop. It's more just frustrating than a significant waste of time.
People who are asking for your time always have to be made to feel the weight of the time they took. Otherwise, they start taking you for granted.
In his defense, he rarely bothers me with questions constantly, and he does have an understanding of wasting time. He just has this habit of assuming the discussion is going to go one way, and if I surprise him with another prudent question that is relevant to the problem at hand it's as if he disregards it as a non-sequitur and insists we move forward with the course of conversation as he intended it.
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Hmmmm...
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@the_quiet_one if you are confused as to my last reply it's because I confused this with yet another episode of "Why do people do this?" I was intending to post but haven't gotten to yet
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@pleegwat said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
@anonymous234 Used? Perhaps. But every time some automated script drops me into it I need to google how to exit.
[ESC]:wq
Wait, what did you say?
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@The_Quiet_One said in Why do people do this? Episode 2:
Dev: Hey, can you help me figure out how to get Visual Studio to do [X]?
Me: Sure. Click on 'Tools' and then--
[Dev clicks on Tools -> Customize...]
Me: No, you went too far ahead. Cancel out of that... okay, now click on 'Tools' and then 'Options' and--
[Dev clicks on Tools -> Options -> Text Editor]
Me: No, not text editor. We need the XAML editor. Scroll down... there it is... okay, so check 'Enable XAML Designer' and before you close...
[Dev checks and immediately hits OK]
Me: sigh Ok, don't hit Restart Vis--
[Dev clicks 'Restart Visual Studio']
Me: long sigh Did you hear what I said?
Dev: Huh?
Me: Don't click on things until I tell you. I wanted you to check something else before we went through all this.
Dev: Oh.
Me: Okay... now that Visual Studio is restarted, let's load up the solution, and then...
[Dev loads the solution and then clicks on an xaml file]
Dev: Hmm, something is still wrong.
Me: [gritting teeth] yes because we still have to do that thing you didn't give yourself a chance to do.
Dev: Oh, so...
[Dev clicks on Tools -> Customize...]
Me: NO!Yes, I know TRWTF is I wasn't just controlling the remote session to do this.
I prefer to give user support to low-ranking people with little technical knowledge. Geeks, peers and higher-status people think they're too important to follow directions, give honest answers and refrain from doing stuff in the background.