FlightAware starts using :disco: :horse: Sadness ensues
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@julianlam said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:Not meaning to hijack, but the reason we don't use wysiwyg by default is because there is no reducible format we can save into the DB that can be output back into html on the way out, meaning we have to save html into the database.
That makes so little sense it kind of curves around and makes ALL the sense, but then it keeps going to nonsense.
Wat?
The problem with Markdown, for the record, is that it's unusable SHIT designed by geektechnerds like you who have never in their entire lives actually given even a third of a fuck about usability.
@julianlam said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:The second reason is because escaping html royally sucks and all sorts of errors crop up with sites that try to save content as HTML and then edit them later.
AKA "it's slightly hard so I just peed my pants and ran away! Waaah! I am infact software developer!"
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@blakeyrat said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:@julianlam said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:Not meaning to hijack, but the reason we don't use wysiwyg by default is because there is no reducible format we can save into the DB that can be output back into html on the way out, meaning we have to save html into the database.
That makes so little sense it kind of curves around and makes ALL the sense, but then it keeps going to nonsense.
Wat?
The problem with Markdown, for the record, is that it's unusable SHIT designed by geektechnerds like you who have never in their entire lives actually given even a third of a fuck about usability.
Markdown is a superset of HTML. You're saying that HTML is unusable shit designed by people who have never given a third of a fuck about usability.
Also, I don't actually see your point. Markdown is much easier for basic users to use because it mimics how you pretend to format text in places without a markup. If I want to convey italics, I would type _text_; Markdown is modeled after that and as such is extremely usable. And you can obviously resort to HTML if you need to.
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@pie_flavor said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:You're saying that HTML is impossible to use.
It is.
Are you trying to make some kind of point or...?
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@pie_flavor said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:Markdown is a superset of HTML
What's the Markdown for tables? What's the Markdown for a three-column layout? What's the Markdown for underlining? Oh, wait, there isn't any.
If Markdown is a superset of HTML, I'm the Queen of the United States.
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@heterodox said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:Not to name names*cough*oracle*cough*.
I wasn't thinking specifically of them. Not when there are some even more egregious sinners about. *cough*ibm*cough*atos*cough*sap*cough*
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@raceprouk All valid HTML is valid Markdown. You don't seem to understand the meaning of "superset".
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@pie_flavor said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:All valid HTML is valid Markdown
What the fuck are you on about? HTML isn't part of Markdown. This isn't like C and C++, y'know.
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@lorne-kates said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:@onyx said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:I don't know how much CSS hackery of your own exists in NodeBB (which will dictate how much fixing would be required), but Bootstrap 4 is now out and that allows at least one more size class. It's also now based on flexbox which behaves better when you do weird things to it, might be time to give that a go and maybe tweak the thresholds in the SASS file as well before deployment?
Or, here's a thought...
IT'S A GODDAMN FUCKING FORUM! YOU DON'T NEED ALL THIS SHIT.
Fucking seriously. It's a chunk of text that says who posted and when, followed by a chunk of text that's the post.
The lists are a chunk of text that says who posted and when, followed by a chunk of text.
This isn't a fucking video game, or some flashy e-comm site, or some GPS map or something.
It's. A. Fucking. Bunch. Of. Text.
Bunch of fucking complicator motherfucking fuckers.
I work on a webapp whose purpose is, 99% of the time, to show a table with data. But people want that shit to work on their desktop, tablet, phone and toaster. Each of those have 17 different browsers who implement shit in 42 different ways. So I decided fuck it, I've lived through "but does it work in IE6?" days. I'm done with manually tweaking this shit, fucking around with resetting margins and floats and adding conditional CSS. So I use Bootstrap, it does all that shit for me.
Now, about SASS and crap specifically: one thing about using an external library is that you sometimes want to update it. But if you mess with its code (CSS in this case) you're fucked, because the update will overwrite your changes. So, you either patch it manually every time it updates, or you use something like SASS which is kinda-sorta a makefile for CSS. And you set your colors and fa-spins and shit in there and it all Just Works™. And everyone is happy.
Look, I'm oldschool myself. I don't like half of this shit either. But it makes my life easier in the end. I'll take some SASS over "WHY DID YOU FUCKING PUT THAT FUCKING ELEMENT FUCKING THERE, FIREFOX 22, YOU FUCKING PIECE OF FUCK?!?!?!?!?!?!" any day.
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@julianlam said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:Allowing all html is a bad idea
Correct.
@julianlam said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:The second reason is because escaping html royally sucks
Incorrect: there are Node packages that exist purely to clean and sanitise HTML. Use one of those, and drive it using a whitelist. Problem solved.
@julianlam said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:all sorts of errors crop up with sites that try to save content as HTML and then edit them later
That's typically because the editors are crap, not because HTML is hard to use.
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@blakeyrat said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:The problem with Markdown, for the record, is that it's unusable SHIT designed by geektechnerds like you who have never in their entire lives actually given even a third of a fuck about usability.
You always say stuff like this but it never makes any sense.
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@boomzilla Markdown is OK for very simple formatting, except underlines which are inexplicably omitted. It's horrible when you try to get to anything more complicated like images or links (is it (address)[display text], [address](display text), (display text)[address] or one of loads of other ways you could arrange different types of brackets?).
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@jaloopa Sure, but you have buttons and keyboard shortcuts to help with that sort of thing. I'm not saying that there aren't quirks or whatever, but just that I can't comprehend
blakey is on about.
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@boomzilla The phone app I use for reddit doesn't have those buttons, so on the rare occasion I post through it I don't even bother trying to format links.
In the more general case, having the main typing area be where the markup goes is forcing what should be an implementation detail on the user who just wants some bold text. I would much prefer a WYSIWYG interface, but I'll take @arantor's word for it if he says there aren't any good ones.
There's other shitty stuff about Markdown too, like the inconsistent way things work with newlines and other whitespace. It can lead to quite a lot of fucking about to get something to look how you want
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@jaloopa I agree with all of that (well, except I've never posted on Reddit). WYSIWYG can easily be a major PITA, especially on mobile where it's difficult to select text. Then the frustrations of styles that keep going and you can't easily get rid of.
But I think there is a lot of room between "there are problems" and "this is unusable garbage."
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@boomzilla said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:But I think there is a lot of room between "there are problems" and "this is unusable garbage."
Well, yeah. That's standard Blakey hyperbole. Markdown seems like the best of a very bad bunch, so railing about it being bad isn't entirely unjustified
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@jaloopa said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:Markdown seems like the best of a very bad bunch, so railing about it being bad isn't entirely unjustified
I'd say BBCode is the best of a very bad bunch, mainly because it supports underlining. Then again, it's more verbose than Markdown, and only really one step away from writing raw HTML.
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Yes, there are HTML sanitization libraries, and we shouldn't shy away from features simply because they're hard, I get that. Let me be clear, I've been defending my use of Markdown for 5 years now, and each time the arguments get weaker and weaker because my list of excuses gets shorter. That's a good thing.
The unfortunate reality is that there's a tradeoff: We either build a platform that can be easily extended (plugins can easily change raw markdown, or can change html content, depending on where it is loaded in relation to the markdown plugin), or one that in my humble opinion, makes development more difficult because you are forced to write regular expressions to parse HTML. I won't say I've been around the block as long as a whole bunch of you have (I bet), but I've done my fair share of HTML parsing and I don't want to do it again, nor do I want to maintain a system that forces people to have to do it. Does that make sense?
Out of curiosity, I looked up how to write a table in BBCode:
[table] [tr] [th][/th] [th][/th] [th][/th] [/tr] [tr] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [/tr] [tr] [td][/td] [td][/td] [td][/td] [/tr] [/table]That's no better than HTML. I don't expect someone unfamiliar with HTML to understand the logic to write that out (even if it is just replacing
<with[and>with]).That said, writing tables in Markdown blows too, so maybe that'll just be another problem we side step because it is too hard.
Did I trigger @blakeyrat yet?
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While we're on the topic of Markdown, I also want to clarify one thing to my esteemed colleagues here who seem to think I shoved markdown down their throats:
- You can disable the markdown plugin
- Afterwards, if you don't want to get overrun with XSS exploits, you can enable the HTML sanitization plugin
??Write HTML- Profit
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I don't get this need for underlines. The last time I felt such an urge was when I was 14 and wanted to play a prank tricking people into clicking non-links.
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@the_quiet_one The main time I've wanted them is for book titles. I use the alternately accepted italics formatting instead.
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@boomzilla My college English professor actually told me that underlines aren't used anymore, they've changed the standard. I remember in 3rd grade we were told to use italics on the computer and underline when writing by hand. Maybe it depends on whether you're using MLA or something else.
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@julianlam said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:Let me be clear, I've been defending my use of Markdown for 5 years now, and each time the arguments get weaker and weaker because my list of excuses gets shorter. That's a good thing.
Progress! :D
@julianlam said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:you are forced to write regular expressions to parse HTML
Regular expressions are a really bad choice for parsing HTML anyway, and should never be used for that purpose. It's much better to find a dedicated HTML parser and use that.
@julianlam said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:While we're on the topic of Markdown, I also want to clarify one thing to my esteemed colleagues here who seem to think I shoved markdown down their throats:
- You can disable the markdown plugin
- Afterwards, if you don't want to get overrun with XSS exploits, you can enable the HTML sanitization plugin
??Write HTML- Profit
That could work for this community, but isn't really a solution to the larger issue. But then again, this also reads like a suggestion for us specifically, not a catch-all solution.
I'd like to take a moment to assure you I'm not trying to trip you up or trap you or anything. In fact, I'm enjoying our discussion, and thankful you're taking the time to engage, rather than what so many devs do, which is act all superior and refuse to listen because 'we know what's best for everyone because we're developers'. It's an attitude I've met before, not just with Jeff Atwood, but with a certain indie dev who shall remain nameless.
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@julianlam is the plugin system robust enough that the whole composer could theoretically be replaced by a full WYSIWYG one?
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@jaloopa The composer itself is a plugin.
GitHub - NodeBB/nodebb-plugin-composer-default: Default Composer for NodeBB
Default Composer for NodeBB. Contribute to NodeBB/nodebb-plugin-composer-default development by creating an account on GitHub.
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@boomzilla said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:You always say stuff like this but it never makes any sense.
Show me a usability study demonstrating that Markdown is more usable than a WYSIWYG interface.
BTW, unless one's been made very recently,, there's NO usability research on Markdown. Because the only people who use Markdown are those open source morons who have zero interest in usable software, Jeff Atwood just arbitrarily declared it was superior based on literally nothing, and all the cock suckers just go along with it.
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@blakeyrat said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:Show me a usability study demonstrating that Markdown is more usable than a WYSIWYG interface.
Show me a usability study demonstrating that a WYSIWYG interface is more usable than markdown.
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@julianlam said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:Yes, there are HTML sanitization libraries, and we shouldn't shy away from features simply because they're hard, I get that.
Then STOP USING IT AS AN EXCUSE.
@julianlam said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:Let me be clear, I've been defending my use of Markdown for 5 years now, and each time the arguments get weaker and weaker because my list of excuses gets shorter. That's a good thing.
It's a good thing that you chose a shitty technology that sucks? ... sure.
Imagine if you'd spent more than 20 milliseconds thinking about your choice of technology before inflicting it on thousands of forum users. What a world that would be.
@julianlam said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:The unfortunate reality is that there's a tradeoff: We either build a platform that can be easily extended (plugins can easily change raw markdown, or can change html content, depending on where it is loaded in relation to the markdown plugin), or one that in my humble opinion, makes development more difficult because you are forced to write regular expressions to parse HTML.
Why don't you do usability research and build the most usable product possible so people don't have to build plugins to fix your broken shit in the first place.
Of course you're all "open source-y" so you don't even know what the word "usability" means. Users? Fuck 'em!
And BTW, you're the smallest-minded developer I've ever seen. You can't think of a single alternative to RegEx? You can't even conceive of a way to store formatted text other than HTML? Jesus man. You need to spend a few months building software for a 1992 Mac Classic, and learn this shit. You don't know nothing. (You'd love it, it's all cooperative multitasking and event passing, like that web framework you picked.)
@julianlam said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:I won't say I've been around the block as long as a whole bunch of you have (I bet), but I've done my fair share of HTML parsing and I don't want to do it again, nor do I want to maintain a system that forces people to have to do it. Does that make sense?
Well at least you know what you don't know.
Look, just start doing usability studies when you change shit. Even really casual hallway usability studies. You don't need a lot of experience to do that, you just need to give a shit and building good software.
@julianlam said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:While we're on the topic of Markdown, I also want to clarify one thing to my esteemed colleagues here who seem to think I shoved markdown down their throats:
I don't care that you "shoved something down our throats"-- making decision on behalf of the user is like 90% of software development. (And, BTW, saying "it doesn't matter if it's shitty because you can fix it with a plug-in!" is cancer.)
The problem is that you shoved something down our throats that you obviously spent ZERO time studying. Because nobody's studied the usability of Markdown. Because Markdown's only ever used by people like you who hate their own users and have no conception of how to write usable software.
"Hey the guys who make Github like Git and they love Markdown, therefore Markdown's good because Git is so good!!!"
@the_quiet_one said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:I don't get this need for underlines. The last time I felt such an urge was when I was 14 and wanted to play a prank tricking people into clicking non-links.
Because if I type _test_ I expect that text to be underlined.
It's not that underline is common, it's that the OBVIOUS way to do underline, the way people have been doing underline in plain text for over 20 years, instead does italics. What. The. Fuck. If it did nothing, Markdown would be better than it is now. Weird and unpredictable behavior is bad.
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@boomzilla said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:Show me a usability study demonstrating that a WYSIWYG interface is more usable than markdown.
Oh you tricky little devil. I can't because AFAIK Markdown is 100% unstudied. That's also my exact point.
Even if Markdown were better (and as a science-minded person, I have to acknowledge that that's possible), until you prove it's better-- even if it's a informal quick test and not anything professional-- you don't just assume it's better because Jeff Atwood says so.
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@blakeyrat said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:You can't even conceive of a way to store formatted text other than HTML?
are you talking about?@blakeyrat said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:@boomzilla said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:Show me a usability study demonstrating that a WYSIWYG interface is more usable than markdown.
Oh you tricky little devil. I can't because AFAIK Markdown is 100% unstudied. That's also my exact point.
Even if Markdown were better (and as a science-minded person, I have to acknowledge that that's possible), until you prove it's better-- even if it's a informal quick test and not anything professional-- you don't just assume it's better because Jeff Atwood says so.
Nah, I can just read one of your rants and least be happy that I don't agree with that lunatic.
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@boomzilla said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:are you talking about?
I say WYSIWYG, he says "MUST USE REGEX TO DECODE HTML! MUST! ME WEB DEV CAVEMAN!"
And I'm sitting here thinking:
- Why the fuck would you use RegEx to decode HTML? That's a terrible fit for RegEx as basically all million apps that have attempted to do that and failed have clearly shown
- Wait a minute, who even says the formatted text has to be stored as HTML? Like this guy is so deep into the "everything's the web!!!!!" universe that he can't even conceive of another format?
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@blakeyrat said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:Like this guy is so deep into the "everything's the web!!!!!" universe that he can't even conceive of another format?
Like the other format he currently uses, you mean?
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@boomzilla said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:Like the other format he currently uses, you mean?
Huh?
EDIT: oh wait, you mean Markdown?
Markdown's specifically designed by lazy-ass open source coders who don't give a shit for usability and thus is actually meant to be typed in plain text. Because it's fucking 1978 again in the open source world.
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@blakeyrat said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:@boomzilla said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:Like the other format he currently uses, you mean?
Huh?
Markdown. Did you get hit on the head or something just now?
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@boomzilla said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:Markdown. Did you get hit on the head or something just now?
Yes I am retard stupid man obvs.
No it's just that since Markdown can't be WYSIWYG I didn't link the two things in my retarded stupid moron shriveled brain. We were talking about WYSIWYG text formats.
So good of you to remind me how dumb I am though.
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@blakeyrat said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:No it's just that since Markdown can't be WYSIWYG
Huh?
@blakeyrat said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:So good of you to remind me how dumb I am though.
I AM HERE TO HELP
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@blakeyrat said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:Wait a minute, who even says the formatted text has to be stored as HTML?
At the risk of steering this back to an actual discussion, what would be the text format you'd favour? Obviously not Markdown: it's too vague, unpredictable, and lacking in features to be a reliable long-term solution, and that's before you factor in the fact there's about fifty competing versions of it. Personally, I'd go for BBCode, but that's not much better than raw HTML.
Edit: Actually, this might be a good topic for a new thread.
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@raceprouk said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:At the risk of steering this back to an actual discussion, what would be the text format you'd favour?
Any format I don't have to know about or see. It's implementation-detail. Microsoft Word is great WYSIWYG editor. Have you ever spent even a fraction of a millisecond thinking about how it stores its text and formatting? No? Then they're doing it right.
At the most basic level, the shit I type should be the shit that shows up on the screen. Markdown doesn't do that. With Markdown frequently the shit I type gets morphed into some strange shit I never wanted, then I get angry at computers and people like Julian who seem to have dedicated their careers to making computers more difficult and less predictable.
I love computers. I think other people should love computers. People won't do that if they're constantly angry at computers. Why are software developers making people angry? Stop it.
@raceprouk said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:Edit: Actually, this might be a good topic for a new thread.
Only if you change your premise to acknowledge that "It's implementation-detail, no user should ever even give a shit" is the ideal answer.
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@blakeyrat said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:Huh?
EDIT: oh wait, you mean Markdown?
Markdown's specifically designed by lazy-ass open source coders who don't give a shit for usability and thus is actually meant to be typed in plain text. Because it's fucking 1978 again in the open source world.
It seems to me that a WYSIWYG editor could use Markdown as the storage format for the database, though, creating it as you hit shortcuts and rendering it on the fly either in the preview pane or also in the compose pane. It wouldn't be the most efficient thing in the world, but that doesn't seem to matter that much in Web development these days.
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@heterodox Atlassian Confluence does that, more or less. They use a highly-modified Markdown that has stuff like tables and underlines, and hide the markup by default, it mostly works as much as any Atlassian product works. (They're not exactly known for quality.)
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@blakeyrat said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:@heterodox Atlassian Confluence does that, more or less. They use a highly-modified Markdown that has stuff like tables and underlines, and hide the markup by default, it mostly works as much as any Atlassian product works. (They're not exactly known for quality.)
MediaWiki does it as well, though IIRC when I last used it it still showed you the MediaWiki markup. I'm sure that's changed by now since it was so long ago (and that was so terrible).
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@blakeyrat said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:Have you ever spent even a fraction of a millisecond thinking about how it stores its text and formatting?
Yes, when selecting stuff and trying to format it doesn't seem to work and I can't figure out how to make it do what I want to I have to try to reverse engineer what it's doing to make something happen.
That was a great feature of the old text / DOS Wordperfect, where you could see all of the formatting markup and so you could easily see exactly what was going on.
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@boomzilla said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:Yes, when selecting stuff and trying to format it doesn't seem to work and I can't figure out how to make it do what I want to I have to try to reverse engineer what it's doing to make something happen.
Yes I think that's happened to me twice ever. I had one document where a horizontal rule got stuck to something and was hard to remove.
I'd still use that a million times over than Markdown. Markdown I have problems with every day, without even mentioning the sheer lack of stuff it supports. Underline being only the most obvious.
@boomzilla said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:That was a great feature of the old text / DOS Wordperfect, where you could see all of the formatting markup and so you could easily see exactly what was going on.
Sure and you can build that in your WYSIWYG editor why not. That doesn't mean your format has to be some kind of plain text markup, and it certainly doesn't mean it has to be HTML, but it does mean you have to treat that as an end-user feature along with all the design, testing, etc. necessary.
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@blakeyrat said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:Markdown I have problems with every day,
I guess this is where I say you're a stupid moron idiot?@blakeyrat said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:Sure and you can build that in your WYSIWYG editor why not.
Welp, so much for implementation detail, never show the user eh?
@blakeyrat said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:and it certainly doesn't mean it has to be HTML
The issue is that the end result has to be HTML for a web forum (unless you're planning to render it all yourself somehow
). So I guess you could build your own from scratch, but that's probably going to be worse than using something that already exists.Eh...sorry, I just don't have the problem with markdown that you do.
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@boomzilla said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:Welp, so much for implementation detail, never show the user eh?
But that's not implementation-detail.
If WordPerfect in "show markup" mode showed exactly the data that was stored on disk, then yes, that would be an implementation detail. But of course it didn't do that. (How could it? It stored binary data.) Instead, they build a new user-facing feature that would take the data stored on disk and present it to the user in a different way.
@boomzilla said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:The issue is that the end result has to be HTML for a web forum (unless you're planning to render it all yourself somehow ).
Yes and no. You can extend HTML to do stuff, but it's kind of shitty. Smileys aren't part of HTML, but most web apps somehow manage by magic to display those.
This is another case if: if you pick a really shitty UI framework for your application, you get a really shitty application.
That said, HTML is roughly 100,000,000 times more powerful than Markdown is.
@boomzilla said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:Eh...sorry, I just don't have the problem with markdown that you do.
Right; but you're an asshole and also wrong.
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@boomzilla said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:@blakeyrat said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:Markdown I have problems with every day,
I guess this is where I say you're a stupid moron idiot?OneTwo
OneTwo
_One_TwoGo consistency!
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@raceprouk That fucking "every time you type
47.on a new line it turns into1., even though47.is a perfectly valid sentence" bug was responsible for more puppy-kicking than I can even count. And still not fixed, BTW. The number at least doesn't change now, but it's still tabbed-in like I'm starting a list even when I had no intention of starting a list.Fuck Markdown. And fuck developers who think Markdown's actually good.
Hey Markdown fans:
47.is a perfectly valid sentence! WHAT KIND OF SHITTY ASSHOLE INCOMPETENT MORON MARKUP LANGUAGE DOESN'T LET YOU TYPE A SIMPLE SENTENCE!
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@blakeyrat said in FlightAware starts using
Sadness ensues:Right; but you're an asshole and also wrong.
Yeah, one of those things is true.
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@blakeyrat I forgot about that one. But while we're on the subject of lists, that reminds me of another issue.
- This is a list according to Markdown.
a. This isn't.
A. And nor is this.
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But do this,
a. And it works. -
But do this,
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And it doesn't.
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And if you do this,
a. It starts off by working, -
Then breaks.
And note that I left blank lines, expecting it to restart the numbering, and it didn't.
- But it will if you have other text.
Source:
1. This is a list according to Markdown. a. This isn't. A. And nor is this. 1. But do this, a. And it works. 1. But do this, 1. And it doesn't. 1. And if you do this, a. It starts off by working, 1. Then breaks.
Also, I just found about six new issues I'd never seen before while making this post.
Markdown: Breaking in fresh ways every day!
