What kind of git created this software?
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@blakeyrat said in What kind of git created this software?:
@mikehurley You could have done that in like 1998 using AppleScript and QuickTime, without ever once touching a CLI. (In fact, the OS you'd be on didn't even have a CLI.)
Your problem isn't "the CLI is more expressive", it's "software in 2017 (or I suppose 2012) sucks", which is undoubtedly true. Software is progressing backwards in usability, features, stability, etc. Backwards. Just sayin'.
I guess I don't see the distinction between CLI and scripting. Scripting is just a way to run many commands that could be run on a command line. Somebody could make a pyshell (assuming somebody hasn't already). If it was my main Linux shell, I'd be using python while using the command line. That would not be scripting. If I had the python interpreter run my python script, I'd be scripting. The content of what I'd be doing would be the same for both activities.
I don't see why back in 1998 I couldn't have used the AppleScript interpreter as a command line. I assume you could open an AppleScript "shell" or "REPL" and start typing stuff in being evaluated as you go. Congrats, that's a command line using the AppleScript language.
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@mikehurley said in What kind of git created this software?:
I guess I don't see the distinction between CLI and scripting.
The difference is that a CLI is a user interface, for entering commands manually to be performed immediately, whereas a script is an automated task that's generally set up ahead of time to be used repeatedly. The first is horrible, the second actually works pretty well.
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@mikehurley said in What kind of git created this software?:
I guess I don't see the distinction between CLI and scripting.
So if you go into Excel and use the Macro Recorder (remember that? It's still there in Excel 2016-- just go to Options and enable the Developer ribbon tab) and hit "record" and do a bunch of stuff, are you:
- Using a CLI?
- Scripting?
Choose all that apply.
It's so trivial to demonstrate, using off-the-shelf Office that everybody knows, that scripting != "running CLI commands" that I wonder how people like you exist. Like... have you somehow gone through life without ever learning anything about Microsoft Office, Microsoft Works, AppleWorks, ClarisWorks, or any other software product with a GUI script recorder? Because how is that possible.
@mikehurley said in What kind of git created this software?:
Scripting is just a way to run many commands that could be run on a command line.
AppleScript:
- The scripting interface can include more commands than exist in the applications normal UI.
- The scripting interface can include commands that take input that can't be delivered either easily, or at all, via the command-line. (Like a list of already-opened files, for example.)
@mikehurley said in What kind of git created this software?:
I don't see why back in 1998 I couldn't have used the AppleScript interpreter as a command line.
You could actually. AppleScript was fucking amazing. There was also a OS-wide macro recorder, like the one in Excel or Word, but which worked on every application you had installed.
@mikehurley said in What kind of git created this software?:
I assume you could open an AppleScript "shell" or "REPL" and start typing stuff in being evaluated as you go. Congrats, that's a command line using the AppleScript language.
But you didn't have to do it that way.
Sigh. In short, basically: you grew up on DOS or Linux, haven't been exposed to enough other OSes, and you have absolutely zero imagination when it comes to scripting tasks. A CLI is not required. The tasks being scripted do not need to exist in the program's human UI. Both of these are demonstrably true, as I have seen both scenarios with my own two eyes almost 20 fucking years ago.
The fact that people like you, with zero imagination, are the kind of people building software here in 2017 is probably why all our software sucks ass.
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@mikehurley said in What kind of git created this software?:
I don't see why back in 1998 I couldn't have used the AppleScript interpreter as a command line. I assume you could open an AppleScript "shell" or "REPL" and start typing stuff in being evaluated as you go. Congrats, that's a command line using the AppleScript language.
AppleScript didn't have a shell or easy REPL on Classic MacOS. All you had was the Script Editor. The closest you could get was compiling and running a script repeatedly, perhaps using display dialog to show things as you went. FaceSpan gave a GUI building toolkit (but its own limitations) and Script Debugger was a better editor, but both were additional purchases.
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@masonwheeler When did developers stop being users? Why is it unreasonable to evaluate a script line by line?
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@captain said in What kind of git created this software?:
@masonwheeler When did developers stop being users?
They didn't. What does that have to do with the topic at hand?
Why is it unreasonable to evaluate a script line by line?
if it's actually a script, that's best done with a debugger. If it's not, then it's not a script so your question doesn't apply.
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I didn't even know
git branch
could create branches because I've memorized the awkwardgit checkout -b
incantation which is far more useful.
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@gleemonk said in What kind of git created this software?:
I didn't even know
git branch
could create branches because I've memorized the awkwardgit checkout -b
incantation which is far more useful....huh.
Thanks, I didn't know that one existed!
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@captain said in What kind of git created this software?:
Why is it unreasonable to evaluate a script line by line?
I think it's unreasonable even to assume a scripted action has "lines". Why does everything have to turn into a fucking text file for you "1975 was the best year ever!" people?
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@blakeyrat said in What kind of git created this software?:
I think it's unreasonable even to assume a scripted action has "lines".
I don't.
Why does everything have to turn into a fucking text file for you "1975 was the best year ever!" people?
Two reasons. First, because experience has shown that that's the simplest way to debug it when something goes wrong. Second, because source control.
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@blakeyrat said in What kind of git created this software?:
Why does everything have to turn into a fucking text file for you "1975 was the best year ever!" people?
That's how programs are generally expressed, unless you're a "1985 was the best year ever!" sort of person or forced to work with some awful proprietary visual programming atrocity.
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@masonwheeler said in What kind of git created this software?:
Second, because source control.
Yeah, that's because we're using source control systems designed by "man I loved 1975!" people. Not because it's some inherent limitation in the very concept of revision control.
@boomzilla said in What kind of git created this software?:
That's how programs are generally expressed, unless you're a "1985 was the best year ever!" sort of person or forced to work with some awful proprietary visual programming atrocity.
Ok; but the point is: the Excel macro recorder exists now. It does scripting. It does not have "lines". Denying that reality gets us nowhere.
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@masonwheeler said in What kind of git created this software?:
@blakeyrat said in What kind of git created this software?:
I think it's unreasonable even to assume a scripted action has "lines".
I don't.
Why does everything have to turn into a fucking text file for you "1975 was the best year ever!" people?
Two reasons. First, because experience has shown that that's the simplest way to debug it when something goes wrong. Second, because source control.
The source control bit is an interesting point. Most of @blakeyrat's points have dealt with somebody doing stuff on their personal computer. Most of the rest of us are talking about things more as a developer. Yes there's overlap, but... I wouldn't really care about source control for any Excel macros nor would I if I was on a Mac in 1998 and I had some stuff automated for myself via AppleScript. However if back then I was using AppleScript to automate some of what our product did I'd probably want those "scripts" in source control in an easy to read format so I can actually see what's been going on.
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@blakeyrat said in What kind of git created this software?:
@masonwheeler said in What kind of git created this software?:
Second, because source control.
Yeah, that's because we're using source control systems designed by "man I loved 1975!" people. Not because it's some inherent limitation in the very concept of revision control.
At the same time I wouldn't want to have to have a differ written for every possible file format. As it is, supporting text allows diffing of a very large majority of files developers deal with.
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@mikehurley said in What kind of git created this software?:
At the same time I wouldn't want to have to have a differ written for every possible file format.
Why not?
Serious question. It seems like you're actually arguing against software being flexible. Why would you oppose someone creating a diff utility for, say, Vegas timelines?
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This entire class of vulnerability is fixed by NOT USING FUCKING COMMAND LINES AS APIS.
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@blakeyrat said in What kind of git created this software?:
Ok; but the point is: the Excel macro recorder exists now. It does scripting. It does not have "lines". Denying that reality gets us nowhere.
Now, I haven't used that in many years but the last time I did, it created VBA code which is very much a bunch of lines of text.
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@boomzilla that's an implementation detail. The person recording actions does not write code. If it happens to be expressed in a format that is also code, especially editable code, cool... but not mandatory.
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@arantor said in What kind of git created this software?:
@boomzilla that's an implementation detail. The person recording actions does not write code. If it happens to be expressed in a format that is also code, especially editable code, cool... but not mandatory.
That may be, but it's still correct and I'm required to point it out when Blakey writes something stupid, like how recording an Excel macro doesn't involve lines of text.
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@boomzilla it doesn't for the user explicitly. I don't think it shows you the VBA it made, at least not by default.
You don't have to see the code.
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@arantor said in What kind of git created this software?:
@boomzilla it doesn't for the user explicitly. I don't think it shows you the VBA it made, at least not by default.
You don't have to see the code.
So? I don't have to see any code when I run it. The point is that it's actually there as opposed to whatever it is that @blakeyrat thinks happens when you record a macro.
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@weng said in What kind of git created this software?:
This entire class of vulnerability is fixed by NOT USING FUCKING COMMAND LINES AS APIS.
Switch everything over to SOAP microservices instead. No vulnerabilities there!
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@dkf said in What kind of git created this software?:
@weng said in What kind of git created this software?:
This entire class of vulnerability is fixed by NOT USING FUCKING COMMAND LINES AS APIS.
Switch everything over to SOAP microservices instead. No vulnerabilities there!
Better.
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@boomzilla said in What kind of git created this software?:
@blakeyrat said in What kind of git created this software?:
Ok; but the point is: the Excel macro recorder exists now. It does scripting. It does not have "lines". Denying that reality gets us nowhere.
Now, I haven't used that in many years but the last time I did, it created VBA code which is very much a bunch of lines of text.
Just last night, I was at this presentation:
The presenter talked about how there's a Xamarin macro recorder that can do general-purpose UI recording across various devices. It operates by generating C# code.
EDIT: Wow, that doesn't put any sort of box around the oneboxing...
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@blakeyrat said in What kind of git created this software?:
Why not?
Serious question. It seems like you're actually arguing against software being flexible. Why would you oppose someone creating a diff utility for, say, Vegas timelines?
First, how would you express the difference in a clear, concise presentation manner?
Second, how precise would the display of difference sections be?
Third, how would you represent stretches of the timeline where there is no difference?
(No , genuinely interested in how you would set something like this up.)
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@masonwheeler said in What kind of git created this software?:
The presenter talked about how there's a Xamarin macro recorder that can do general-purpose UI recording across various devices. It operates by generating C# code.
This kinda sorta makes a lot of sense. We already have technologies for executing this stuff, so why not use it? If you have some sort of non-text programming fetish, then I guess have fun, but it's going to be a PITA to deal with and debug and etc.
No one has come up with anything that beats storing code as text. I don't know how hypercard or whatever did it, but it was presumably byte code, which I would think could have easily been stored as text if anyone cared. That they chose an inferior storage medium (possibly for good reasons like data compression...like C64 BASIC did, even if it converted it to text when you viewed it) is no reason why we should pretend that we're stuck in 1985.
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@masonwheeler So this is the "because it's difficult to do, nobody should ever even attempt to do it" argument?
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@boomzilla said in What kind of git created this software?:
That may be, but it's still correct and I'm required to point it out when Blakey writes something stupid, like how recording an Excel macro doesn't involve lines of text.
I did it a couple hours ago when trying to find where they hid the macro recorder in Excel 2016. I recorded a macro, then played it back. I did not see any lines of text.
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@blakeyrat said in What kind of git created this software?:
@boomzilla said in What kind of git created this software?:
That may be, but it's still correct and I'm required to point it out when Blakey writes something stupid, like how recording an Excel macro doesn't involve lines of text.
I did it a couple hours ago when trying to find where they hid the macro recorder in Excel 2016. I recorded a macro, then played it back. I did not see any lines of text.
I didn't ask if you saw lines of text.
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@boomzilla said in What kind of git created this software?:
No one has come up with anything that beats storing code as text.
Possibly true, but you see how hearing this coming from people who have never even heard of AppleScript is not very convincing, yes?
"I did it this way, didn't try anything else ever, and I can surely say with full confidence that the way I did it is the best one!" Not very compelling.
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@blakeyrat said in What kind of git created this software?:
Possibly true, but you see how hearing this coming from people who have never even heard of AppleScript is not very convincing, yes?
If I didn't know what I know, then sure.
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@blakeyrat said in What kind of git created this software?:
@masonwheeler So this is the "because it's difficult to do, nobody should ever even attempt to do it" argument?
I wasn't arguing; I was asking a question. How would you set up a diff view for it?
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@masonwheeler said in What kind of git created this software?:
I wasn't arguing; I was asking a question. How would you set up a diff view for it?
I'll figure it out when you pay me to do it. My hourly rates are quite reasonable.
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@masonwheeler Why does everything have to have a diff?
I guess you never have images in your environment, like, ever. Or better still, SVGs, where diffing is totally unhelpful to understanding the changes.
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@boomzilla said in What kind of git created this software?:
If I didn't know what I know, then sure.
I don't know what you know. Point is, a lot of people who have never even played with GUI scripting tools wave your arms in the air and yell "GUI SCRIPTING TOOLS DON'T WORK!!!" and I'm sitting here like, "who the fuck are you?"
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@arantor said in What kind of git created this software?:
Why does everything have to have a diff?
The context is version control, á la source control. So being able to diff and merge is important.
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: Why can't someone do XYZ?
: How would you specify that?
: WHY ARE YOU ARGUING WITH ME?!?
: Just asking what you would want from XYZ.
: I dunno and I don't want to figure it out. I just want an XYZ.
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@boomzilla Go on, diff an SVG, see if it does anything useful. Better still, diff a PNG. Because it's perfectly cromulent that you might bundle images with code, e.g. keeping assets in line with how the platform is expected to behave (e.g. a 2.0 release with a completely new set of icons)
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@arantor said in What kind of git created this software?:
@masonwheeler Why does everything have to have a diff?
Umm... I'm not the one saying it does?
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@masonwheeler if only that were how this conversation read to someone who isn't you or blakeyrat. Unfortunately it isn't, and you still come off looking like an arrogant prick who is obsessed with their own world view.
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@masonwheeler You were arguing that there should be a diff utility for a Vegas timeline. The implication (warning, possible slippy slope fallacy detected), is that all things should have some kind of diff. Even though it's not necessarily feasible.
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@arantor said in What kind of git created this software?:
@masonwheeler You were arguing that there should be a diff utility for a Vegas timeline.
No. Blakeyrat said that. I asked how he would specify it.
The implication (warning, possible slippy slope fallacy detected), is that all things should have some kind of diff. Even though it's not necessarily feasible.
I agree fully.
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@masonwheeler I never claimed "I know exactly what a Vegas timeline diff should look like", I was just asking whatsisname why he thinks it's desirable to limit the number of diff tools that exist which, you might recall, was his original claim.
If you're going to ask me to design a product from scratch, like you basically just did, I'm going to reply, "pay me money first." Which is what I basically just did.
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@masonwheeler In shocking news, you agree with your own world view. News at 11.
In other news, fuck this noise.
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@arantor said in What kind of git created this software?:
@masonwheeler In shocking news, you agree with your own world view. News at 11.
TDEMSYR. Now that is gone, did he bequeath his reading comprehension to you or something? Because what you are saying has nothing to do with what is actually being discussed.
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@arantor said in What kind of git created this software?:
@boomzilla Go on, diff an SVG, see if it does anything useful. Better still, diff a PNG. Because it's perfectly cromulent that you might bundle images with code, e.g. keeping assets in line with how the platform is expected to behave (e.g. a 2.0 release with a completely new set of icons)
Yes, that's the point, the diffing has to be something other than how you would handle a text file. I mean...obviously the answer in some cases is that everything changed. But maybe it's something like, everything was lightened by a bit. Or just a little bit changed. I don't know, but the abstract concept of computing differences of nontext isn't ridiculous, even if the implementation is nuts or not feasible.
For instance, some video codecs (or whatever the word is) are based on the differences from one frame to another.
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@blakeyrat Well, they don't have to be text lines, but presumably you would want to evaluate commands. A command that's missing a noun or a verb isn't really a command.
Lots of scripting languages do multi-line commands.
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@blakeyrat said in What kind of git created this software?:
Yeah, that's because we're using source control systems designed by "man I loved 1975!" people. Not because it's some inherent limitation in the very concept of revision control.
I'd really love to know what data structure you would use to write programs with that is so much better than text.
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@captain said in What kind of git created this software?:
I'd really love to know what data structure you would use to write programs with that is so much better than text.