US woman says Ubuntu can't access internet
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@PeterF said:
I don't think that, from a consumer standpoint, Ubuntu's support strategy is much different from that of Microsoft. Most people I know ask a knowledgable friend or familymember for support, and only contact the supplier if the hardware is defective. I don't get the impression a lot of people expect their supplier to help them with such kind of problems. No one blames microsoft if they can't get there internet connection to work. Why is it now suddenly Ubuntu's, or the FOSS community's problem?
If I signed up for Verizon's Internet access and it didn't work with a Windows computer, I would call Verizon because they are selling something that doesn't work with the OS 95% of people use. Microsoft doesn't need to directly support the OS as much because most people make sure their hardware, software and services work with Windows. If Ubuntu wants to compete, then they have to do some of that legwork themselves. As I said above, it's not like Ubuntu doesn't work with this stuff. Hell, plenty of people have spent many, many hours writing software and debugging stuff just to make sure Ubuntu and Linux do work with a wide range of technologies. However, they can't simply expect end-users to know this nor can they expect Verizon or whoever to spend money supporting customers using a very, very minority OS.
@PeterF said:
Anyway, the main problem with Ubuntu is that it isn't Windows. People expect Windows to run on a PC, and while I understand that, I do think it is a sad state of afairs. It would be nice, for everyone, if Windows had some real competition on the desktop, from the perspective of the average consumer. The biggest obstacle for linux as a serious competitor aren't technical, it's educational.
And who should be providing that education? Who should be providing that support? Microsoft? Are you high? FOSStards continuously bitch and moan about not being taken seriously and promise a day of "desktop Linux". Then a major corporation takes the time and money to put their little hobby project on a piece of hardware and sell it and the reaction is, well, you can see for yourself. We have a case where a major PC manufacturer is selling Linux and an actual mainstream user bought it. This should be the FOSStards wet dream. They should be doing whatever they can to encourage and assist. Instead, they deride. Then people like you come in and ask why it's their responsibility to support these stupid, stupid users. Please don't act like this is some isolated incident -- I've been active in the FOSS community for some time and when it comes down to it FOSStards love computers and software but detest Average Joes, plain and simple. That's why Linux has 0.00000001% market share on the desktop.
The FOSS community spent years making this bed, finally got some people to lay in it and then act shocked when those same people aren't quite comfortable with it. They don't treat FOSS development like a business that is trying to gain market share by actually supporting the users they are trying to convert. I've seen this same attitude expressed so many times before that I'm convinced it's a widespread problem. It seems nobody is concerned with actually being a better alternative to Windows for real consumers. I don't think my criticisms are out of line at all -- FOSS wants to be taken seriously so it better step up to the plate and deliver or STFU and go back to the server room.
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@morbiuswilters said:
Microsoft doesn't need to directly support the OS as much because most people make sure their hardware, software and services work with Windows. If Ubuntu wants to compete, then they have to do some of that legwork themselves. As I said above, it's not like Ubuntu doesn't work with this stuff. Hell, plenty of people have spent many, many hours writing software and debugging stuff just to make sure Ubuntu and Linux do work with a wide range of technologies. However, they can't simply expect end-users to know this nor can they expect Verizon or whoever to spend money supporting customers using a very, very minority OS.
The point is that the Internet is an OS-neutral technology and that ISPs should not require an OS-specific CD to configure the internet when Internet setup can be done with a standard web browser.
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@morbiuswilters said:
How is it any of your business what she bought? Maybe she likes to play games in her spare time.
I highly doubt that. I can't imagine there are many computer gamers who don't understand what Microsoft Windows is. And if she didn't want people discussing the specifics or her purchase and her computer needs, then she shouldn't have gone to the local news station.
Not everybody has the time or ability to research a purchase that thoroughly. Expecting a consumer to know everything about what they are buying is absurd.
No one can know everything about what they are buying, and I never said they should. I said that people should know the important points. I would consider the Operating System of a computer to be every bit as important as the type of transmission in a car. I have little sympathy for consumers who buy things without understanding what they are purchasing. Attitudes like this are the reason so many people went for adjustable rate mortgages are are now facing foreclosure.
It sounds to me like the product was not clearly presented as the wrong choice for her, which is just bad customer service. Since she was most likely buying this on the phone, the rep should have made clear she knew what Linux was and what the limitations of it were and what her other options were. If you go to a car dealership and tell the salesperson you want a pickup capable of pulling a 2 ton trailer and they sell you a truck that cannot tow that, that is mispresentation on their part. If there is a known limitation of a good that is counter to what is normal, that needs to be disclosed. In terms of computers, "normal" means "Windows" and the limitations should have been clearly explained before the purchase.
Both parties are at fault, but the woman is not blameless by any stretch of the imagination.
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I don't understand why anyone would take this woman's side at all. From the article, it looks like she essentially gave up as soon as she encountered the smallest difficulty; she didn't ask for help, she didn't do anything but sit there for a few months (judging by the fact that she dropped out of both spring and fall), and then complain to the local news agency. Even the smallest attempt at resolving things would have worked; she could have called Verizon and said "My CD doesn't work, what do I do?" - which is what the reporter did - and she could have called the technical college she was attending and said "I don't have Word, I have Ubuntu; what do I do?" - which is also what the reporter did. Either or both of those things would have resolved her problem quickly, but she did nothing. This is inexcusable.
Anyway, this isn't a problem with Ubuntu, it's a problem with her. If she'd discovered that her new Windows computer didn't have Office on it, what would she have done? If the Verizon CD had been scratched and not readable by her computer, what would she have done? It seems like the answer is nothing.
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@Spectre said:
@tster said:
Among them is an "Operating System" list which includes Vista, XP, Free DOS
Wait, what? Why would you want to buy a computer with FreeDOS preinstalled?
MS does not allow Dell to sell computers with no OS.
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I'd bet a beer that her internet actually worked. She just stuck the CD in the drive and when nothing happened, naturally assumed it was broken.
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@morbiuswilters said:
The woman was sold what is, for all intents and purposes, a defective product.
Agreed. I know how you like to argue, and there's no way I'm giving you a freebie here, when you're essentially correct.
That having been said, it's mind-boggling that she couldn't get her defective product fixed in a more reasonable amount of time, unless she thought she could potentially profit from a story like the Register article. (And if you don't think MS would pay for such publicity, you're on some serious 'medication' - or should be.)
I suppose it's also possible she was too tight to part with the $100-$200 the Windows install would've cost. However, that's still not Ubuntu's fault. And, to be quite honest, I strongly suspect that she could've made it work for her via some Googling and some exploiting one of the local lonely geeks. (It's not unethical if you're up-front with them about exploiting them - and half of my lonely geek friends back in college would've jumped at the chance to be exploited like that. Nearly a quarter of them did, and were quite happy being exploited.)
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@samanddeanus said:
The point is that the Internet is an OS-neutral technology and that ISPs should not require an OS-specific CD to configure the internet when Internet setup can be done with a standard web browser.
ISPs can require whatever the hell they want. In most cases it is a lot simpler to have someone insert a CD and follow prompts than try to set it up themselves. How is this even an issue? The point is that the computer sold to her is fucking defective. It does not perform how a "normal" computer should by any stretch of the imagination and it seems no support was provided to her. Then FOSStards jump in and try to blame her.
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@bighusker said:
I highly doubt that. I can't imagine there are many computer gamers who don't understand what Microsoft Windows is. And if she didn't want people discussing the specifics or her purchase and her computer needs, then she shouldn't have gone to the local news station.
Maybe, maybe not. It's not a matter of her not knowing what Windows is so much as not knowing what Ubuntu is or how it differs or limits what she can do. And it's none of your business if she wants to buy a nicer computer. Seriously, this is the most pathetic fanboi bullshit I have ever seen. "Well why was she buying a nicer computer if she tried to save money on an OS? Huh??" Goddammit.
@bighusker said:
No one can know everything about what they are buying, and I never said they should. I said that people should know the important points. I would consider the Operating System of a computer to be every bit as important as the type of transmission in a car. I have little sympathy for consumers who buy things without understanding what they are purchasing. Attitudes like this are the reason so many people went for adjustable rate mortgages are are now facing foreclosure.
Most people do not know or care what an operating system is and they shouldn't have to. Your analogy is simply absurd: you are stretching to find anything you can to blame the user. She was sold a product that is not capable of performing basic functionality that most people wouldn't even realize is optional. And adjustable rate mortgages? How much crack did you smoke before you posted? She didn't sign a legal contract for a $200,000 purchase that held her to terms she couldn't abide by, she bought a fucking commodity computer. It should be able to do what she wants and, sadly, it even can. I'm not saying she acted absolutely brilliantly, she acted like an average consumer and if FOSS wants to be taken seriously in the consumer market it better fucking adapt to the consumer market.
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@tgape said:
That having been said, it's mind-boggling that she couldn't get her defective product fixed in a more reasonable amount of time, unless she thought she could potentially profit from a story like the Register article. (And if you don't think MS would pay for such publicity, you're on some serious 'medication' - or should be.)
I suppose it's also possible she was too tight to part with the $100-$200 the Windows install would've cost. However, that's still not Ubuntu's fault.
I agree that she didn't act intelligently, but this is how many consumers of computer equipment would act. They aren't comfortable or knowledgeable and often procrastinate when it comes to messing with "that machine". Maybe she was just doing it for the publicity and, shit, I'll even consider that she's being paid for it just for the sake of argument. However, a serious desktop competitor to Windows should not allow itself to be open to such PR stunts. Clearly, Ubuntu was not an easy-to-use replacement for Windows in this case. Things may be exaggerated but in no way do I doubt that this woman would not have received good support for her purchase of Ubuntu: it's simply not a priority of FOSS, as the comments from various people have shown.
@tgape said:
And, to be quite honest, I strongly suspect that she could've made it work for her via some Googling and some exploiting one of the local lonely geeks. (It's not unethical if you're up-front with them about exploiting them - and half of my lonely geek friends back in college would've jumped at the chance to be exploited like that. Nearly a quarter of them did, and were quite happy being exploited.)
Are you suggesting she pimp herself out to nerds in exchange for tech support? I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but it seems that's what you are implying.
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The point is that the computer sold to her is fucking defective. It does not perform how a "normal" computer should by any stretch of the imagination and it seems no support was provided to her. Then FOSStards jump in and try to blame her.
How is this supposed to be fixed? Installing WINE out of the box (for Verison Config app and MS Word)? There would still be some Windows-only apps that do not run 100% perfectly.
Verison might be able to have provided manual configuration steps if asked for them and word processing can obviously be done on Linux but no one told her about how to set up any of those things.
The problem is that
1) A person ordered a computer with Linux even though they had no idea what Linux is.
2) The Dell support person told her to use Linux rather than just sending her the Windows discs or otherwise replacing it with a Windows computer.
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@morbiuswilters said:
The community is full of pathetic nerds who only see Linux as some kind of status symbol or rebellion and not as a practical tool. At the very least, the "desktop Linux" crowd should have taken this opportunity to help the woman and demonstrate that Linux isn't that "scary" but it seems they would prefer to mock the poor woman for inadvertently using their product.
I couldn't agree more. In order to maintain the dillusion that "desktop linux is for everyone" the community must deny that issues like this exist and differ, differ, differ.
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@morbiuswilters said:
Most people do not know or care what an operating system is and they shouldn't have to.
This is a really important issue that most people miss, kudos for catching it. If you know you're running an operating system, then, on some level, that operating system has failed at being transparent to the user.
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@samanddeanus said:
1) A person ordered a computer with Linux even though they had no idea what Linux is.
- A person ordered a car and doesn't even know what brand of engine it has in it! OMG!
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@Soviut said:
@samanddeanus said:
1) A person ordered a computer with Linux even though they had no idea what Linux is.
- A person ordered a car and doesn't even know what brand of engine it has in it! OMG!
A person always used a car that uses diesel, but now she got one with benzine (gasoline, no idea how you guys call it) you see the problem?
It's not because you buy a computer that it should magically work like you are used to...
Used to Sony tv's, try to figure out the Samsung menu
Most people are just retards and don't like/understand change AT ALL
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Here is the relevant story: http://www.wkowtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=9667184
This has been posted on Digg too, yesterday.
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@morbiuswilters said:
@tgape said:
And, to be quite honest, I strongly suspect that she could've made it work for her via some Googling and some exploiting one of the local lonely geeks. (It's not unethical if you're up-front with them about exploiting them - and half of my lonely geek friends back in college would've jumped at the chance to be exploited like that. Nearly a quarter of them did, and were quite happy being exploited.)
Are you suggesting she pimp herself out to nerds in exchange for tech support? I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but it seems that's what you are implying.
Absolutely not. Very few of the lonely geeks I knew in college would've required actual "favors" in exchange for their help. Mere contact with a woman who didn't ridicule them would've been payment enough.
Edit: Well, on second thought, some of the geeks I knew who were in such arrangements did, at least, insist on the woman being appreciative. As in, saying "thank you", not as in performing "favors".
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@tgape said:
Absolutely not. Very few of the lonely geeks I knew in college would've required actual "favors" in exchange for their help. Mere contact with a woman who didn't ridicule them would've been payment enough.
Edit: Well, on second thought, some of the geeks I knew who were in such arrangements did, at least, insist on the woman being appreciative. As in, saying "thank you", not as in performing "favors".
Also note that most of the geeks I knew in college were not lonely geeks. I'm fairly certain that 'lonely geek' is a minority subclass of 'geek'. That having been said, I met at least a dozen in college (out of over a hundred geeks I met there - being a geek myself, and all.)
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@dabean said:
A non-technical friend of mine signed up at a local ISP recently
and spoke about 'just popping in the CD'. That sounded a bit strange to me,
since it was an ADSL line with a router included. Turns out the router is
shipped in bridge mode, and the software walks the user through the PPPoE setup.
Makes sense to me actually, since the users that know better won't use the CD,
and those that don't won't have to phone them about port-forwarding and IP's
etc.PPPoE setup in windows is very easy and doesn't make you worry about anything other than username and password (and the connection name).
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@XIU said:
Used to Sony tv's, try to figure out the Samsung menu
That said, out of maybe 5 TV brands I've had, maybe only one menu was not completely retarded and didn't require cuss words to operate.
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@alegr said:
@XIU said:
Used to Sony tv's, try to figure out the Samsung menu
That said, out of maybe 5 TV brands I've had, maybe only one menu was not completely retarded and didn't require cuss words to operate.
And I'm sure that if you asked for help regarding the bad menus, you wouldn't expect to get berated by the community that supports said TV.
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@Soviut said:
@morbiuswilters said:
Most people do not know or care what an operating system is and they shouldn't have to.
This is a really important issue that most people miss, kudos for catching it. If you know you're running an operating system, then, on some level, that operating system has failed at being transparent to the user.
Why should it be transparent? The OS drastically affects all aspects of using a computer. Windows and Linux are fundamentally different, you can't really hide it. Even the difference between Windows versions can be significant sometimes. If you think your applications run by themselves, it means more trouble for you in the future.
Continuing the car analogy, this would be like driving a car without knowing there is an engine inside. Sure, you can do it, but once you run out of petrol, you're up the creek without a paddle.
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@Spectre said:
@Soviut said:
No, it's like driving a car but not knowing any details of the engine in it. What we should be striving for is something akin to: "Is it a V6 or a V8?" "I dunno, I just put gas in it and it goes."@morbiuswilters said:
Most people do not know or care what an operating system is and they shouldn't have to.
This is a really important issue that most people miss, kudos for catching it. If you know you're running an operating system, then, on some level, that operating system has failed at being transparent to the user.
Why should it be transparent? The OS drastically affects all aspects of using a computer. Windows and Linux are fundamentally different, you can't really hide it. Even the difference between Windows versions can be significant sometimes. If you think your applications run by themselves, it means more trouble for you in the future.
Continuing the car analogy, this would be like driving a car without knowing there is an engine inside. Sure, you can do it, but once you run out of petrol, you're up the creek without a paddle.
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@Spectre said:
PPPoE setup in windows is very easy and doesn't make you worry about anything other than username and password (and the connection name).
Ubuntu has pppoeconf which is mentioned in the built in help.
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@Spectre said:
.... but choosing Ubuntu without knowing what it is is rather unwise.
It was clearly a mistake, as she called Dell back in order to change her order, at which point the dumbass on the phone told her that she'd be just fine, and that it was compatible with everything. He took the Linux zealot definition of "compatible", which means "it might work if you're an expert and you spend 16 hours compiling crap".
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@morbiuswilters said:
I really have to agree on this. One major problem with Linux distros is that most of them have been named in such a way that the average user is not swayed. I remember this being mentioned some years ago on a BBS, saying that it is one of the reasons Linux hasn't gone mainstream on the desktop side. While "Gentoo", "Slackware" or "SuSE" might save themselves because they are either geek-oriented or enterprise-oriented (SuSE), "Ubuntu" is supposed to be targeted at the average user. However, its name has no real meaning outside of Africa:I am facepalming this article, Dell and half the people in this thread. The woman was sold what is, for all intents and purposes, a defective product. Some of you need to spend some time in the real world where a lot of computer users don't know what Linux is and could easily make the same mistake. Hell, a lot of people barely know the difference between different versions of Windows and for all this woman might have known, "Ubuntu" could have been a version of Windows. It's about as descriptive of a name as "Vista".
User: Um... what does this "Ubuntu" thing mean?
Linux evangelist: Oh, it is an African word...
User: African? OMG its a cannibal ritual! Keep that thing away from me!!
At least "Xandros" has a cool-looking name; too bad this one isn't being being promoted so much, even if it has Crossover (which allows it to actually run MS Office) ... I think that one receives flak from the FOSS purists.
Oh, and even saying "Linux" seems as heresy to some: see the "GNU/Linux" vs. "Linux" fighting.
@morbiuswilters said:
I wonder if this attitude will ever change. Alex himself was a victim of the "RTFM effect" and despises Unix environments ever since; I'm pretty sure there are others who have turned against Linux because of elitist pedantry as well.The whole attitude being expressed here is precisely why Linux will never be mainstream. The community is full of pathetic nerds who only see Linux as some kind of status symbol or rebellion and not as a practical tool. At the very least, the "desktop Linux" crowd should have taken this opportunity to help the woman and demonstrate that Linux isn't that "scary" but it seems they would prefer to mock the poor woman for inadvertently using their product. PROTIP: That is not how you build a successful competitor to Windows. See, Microsoft got to where they are by throwing their efforts into helping regular people get their work done. It seems that FOSS community (which almost never creates anything new and just emulates popular apps from other platforms) can't be bothered with actually producing and supporting a useful, practical product.
I still remember searching on how to get winmodems to work under Linux, and the main site for this basically told me "lern2compilekernel" and that real Linux users should know how to compile a kernel, d00d!
I've also seen recently that there seems to be some kind of problem with the latest x.org version, Fedora 10, and the propietary nVidia drivers (you know, the ones that actually let you use the 3D rendering stuff you paid $200+ for.) It seems to be another stupid jihad against propietary drivers, which feels stupid given that nVidia is one of the few who actually have made Linux drivers for their stuff.
@morbiuswilters said:
Agreed. I used to think Linux would substitute the desktop OS, but those dreams died around the time I was unable to get my winmodem working. (I did get a Conexant one to work, but that was years later.) It isn't just the GUI's ... it needs actual support people that are willing to help clueless users, instead of berating them for "being stupid" or asking them to RTFM.This would make me ashamed to be a Linux user, except for the fact that I've always known Linux is not a mainstream OS and never will be. This behavior isn't unexpected, it's just fucking pathetic.
Until then, Linux will remain mainly as a server OS, where it has found its place already.
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@Maciej said:
@Spectre said:
.... but choosing Ubuntu without knowing what it is is
rather unwise.It was clearly a mistake, as she called Dell back in order to change her order, at which point the dumbass on the phone told her that she'd be just fine, and that it was compatible with everything.
That was my second point, which you didn't quote.
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@bstorer said:
No, it's like driving a car but not knowing any details of the engine in
it. What we should be striving for is something akin to: "Is it a V6 or a
V8?" "I dunno, I just put gas in it and it goes."Not all cars run on gasoline. Would you propose making that transparent to the user?
Besides, all "applications" for the car come bundled with it and are tailored for its "OS". With computers, this is not the case.
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@Spectre said:
@bstorer said:
If they just had one pump head that autodetermined whether I need gas or diesel, sure. How is that a bad thing?No, it's like driving a car but not knowing any details of the engine in it. What we should be striving for is something akin to: "Is it a V6 or a V8?" "I dunno, I just put gas in it and it goes."
Not all cars run on gasoline. Would you propose making that transparent to the user?
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@PeterF said:
I don't think that, from a consumer standpoint, Ubuntu's support strategy is much different from that of Microsoft.
I remember reading some entrepeneurial article with advice along these lines: You are not Steve Jobs. Just because Apple's marketing and management strategy works for Apple does not mean you can copy it and make it work for you.
The Ubuntu community isn't even a discrete entity, but for the sake of argument, let's think of it as a company. This company would be nothing like Microsoft. The management is different. The culture is different. The image is different. The actual product being sold is vastly different. The marketing and branding strategy is different. The budget is different. The Ubuntu "corporation" is different from the Microsoft Corporation in every conceivable way. The only thing that is the same is, apparently, the target market.
If everything else about Ubuntu is different from Microsoft/Windows, what would compel you to think that you should be able to use the same support strategy? You are not Bill Gates. You don't have the advertising budget to spread major awareness of your product. You don't have any sort of reputation backing you up. You don't have an intuitive enough product to skimp on support. You certainly don't have the market share to reasonably expect that Joe the Plumber's brother or son is going to know anything about a problem or be able to fix it.
You are pushing a product that, in the eyes of many, and for many well-founded reasons, is a tinpot Windows. Yes, it's a lot cheaper, but people value their time as well as their money. In fact, most people drastically overvalue their time. It is easier to convince someone to overspend than it is to convince them to do unnecessary work. So if you want to compete, you had damn well better become superior to Microsoft in terms of support. You need to make Ubuntu even less painless for Joe than Windows, because Joe's got no one else to turn to for help.
If you want to have any hope of competing, you need to prove to Joe the Plumber that you care deeply about his business. That is the only way for most small "companies" to survive.
Maybe, some day, if you manage to gain even a 10% market share, you might be able to act more like Microsoft. But in order to get there, you really need to get your foot in the door, and that means making sure that every last idiot who was good-hearted enough to guinea-pig your shitty OS feels completely comfortable.
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@bstorer said:
If they just had one pump head that autodetermined whether I need gas or diesel,
sure. How is that a bad thing?Well, the thing is, in the computer world they don't, and the OS manufacturers can't do anything about it. Besides, what if you need batteries?
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I don't get it, could people please stop saying that Linux doesn't work. It works fine, if you know your way around things and have some extra spare time. The fastest way to do things isn't always the best one, i don't get where this mentality comes from.
I am NOT a linux fanboy, i see it for what it is, use it on a regular basis, play around with it and use it for day to day work. I do this by personal preference and i don't demand others to like it as much.
People do come up and ask me questions about linux, if it is usable for day to day work and the answer i normally give lies in the lines of "Well, it demands more patience, time and knowledge. But it is still better in some areas and it has another way of doing thing. I do not recommend that you turn to it fully without reading up on it first".
I find it idiotic to some part, you can't throw freaking ubuntu onto people that expects something fast easy and compatible. Still, it should come as a choice, which it already is. But i'm somewhat disturbed that people expect computers to be simple and something that should work with little or no knowledge. I don't use a car nor do i try on any other field that the one i'm already comfterble in without reading up on the subject or atleast, come with the freaking will to learn.
The real wtf is the expectations people have without considering that they themselves MIGHT have to freaking learn something. Sure computers are a tool, but it's not a hammer.
I know i'm contradictive. Computers should be eassy to use, something that helps everyday life but at the same time. People need challanges, learn something, expand. Is it too much to ask that people understand the technology that they use? If they don't, aren't we sliding in the the reality shown by the movie "Idiocracy" where they weren't smart enough to repair, develop or in any way advance. They merely had the knowledge to use the technology that was created by earlier generations. And doing so merely by bashing the keyboard to see what happens.
We need to advance. That goes for every single indivudual. Not a select few.
Meh, whatever, if you wanna discuss, contact me.
Sorry for the big block of text, i'm too stupid to figure out how to use paragraphs. Well, i suppose that's the way of life.
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opens mouth to speak, pauses, then walks off shaking head
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@Precautious said:
The real wtf is the expectations people have without considering that they themselves MIGHT have to freaking learn something. Sure computers are a tool, but it's not a hammer.
I know i'm contradictive. Computers should be eassy to use, something that helps everyday life but at the same time. People need challanges, learn something, expand. Is it too much to ask that people understand the technology that they use? If they don't, aren't we sliding in the the reality shown by the movie "Idiocracy" where they weren't smart enough to repair, develop or in any way advance. They merely had the knowledge to use the technology that was created by earlier generations. And doing so merely by bashing the keyboard to see what happens.
We need to advance. That goes for every single indivudual. Not a select few.
The problem with this is that you assume that someone that doesn't learn about how computers works is not learning anything. This couldn't be further from the truth. The reason that a lot of people don't want to learn a lot about computers is because they are busy learning about other shit. Take a lawyer for instance. If he's busy learning about how to build the linux nvidia drivers into the new linux kernel, he can't be reading about the latest supreme court descision.
Or try thinking about it this way. Imagine a board full of accountants and IRS employees. They start talking about a software engineer (lets say Jeff) who was one of their clients who filled out a 1040 with all his contract income on it. They all start making fun of him and assume he is an idiot who doesn't even bother to learn anything or read up on taxes, which are obviously important because about 40% of your income goes to taxes. Obviously if Jeff weren't such a lazy idiot he would have known to file a 1099. So Jeff's accountant didn't fix the problem and tell Jeff about the 1099, instead he sent the 1040 to the IRS who got it and told Jeff that he fucked up and that now his taxes are late and he owes some serious penalties. Of course you can say Jeff fucked up, but he hired an Accountant who is a tax professional so that he doesn't have to learn all this shit.
The same thing applies here. This woman isn't a computer professional. So she went to Dell, who should be acting as the professionals in this case, and said, "Here is $1100, please give me a computer." Then Dell fucked up and let her order a computer with Ubuntu on it even though it won't work for her purposes.
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more evidence tht linux is not suitable for 'joe the computer user'
Heh, Ubuntu is like the 'Chinese made imitation iPhones' of the OS world.
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@Aaron said:
If everything else about Ubuntu is different from Microsoft/Windows, what would compel you to think that you should be able to use the same support strategy? ... You don't have an intuitive enough product to skimp on support.
Are you implying that Windows is intuitive enough so that anybody can directly use it?
If so, I have to disagree. I find Windows anything but intuitive, while I quickly found my way in SuSE and Ubuntu (sidux was a pain, though). Just me, of course, many others find Windows more intuitive.
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Ubuntu is so ridiculously easy to use and has made my old computer seem like new..
The basic stuff is really easy to get, with the built in add/remove program thing, and the more complicated stuff can be gotten from command line.
I now know why the linux community so severely defends it's projects, I got Ubuntu yesterday after reading this article and its great.
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Learning something about computers doesn't necessarily mean learning how to compile a kernel. One might not be aware of this, but the field of computer knowledge is so vast that you can learn lots and lots of things without ever learning how to compile a kernel. But the whole thing isn't exactly about learning. Learning has been closed off at every angle in this case.
Dell are fuckers. This is demonstrated in their UK advert where they try to convince people that they need a dual core CPU just to check your email and download tunes at the same time. The reality is that somewhere between a Cyrix P150+ and a K6-2 500 you get enough performance for mp3 decoding to be done in realtime while simultaneously scrolling a page of html.
I can see Verizon's point of not supporting every single device that they're capable of providing a service to, but they should have been sure to tell the woman the truth - that it could connect but they didn't specifically support it. The article and the woman appear to claim that the Verizon rep lied.
The woman seems to have been holding a few misconceptions - such as that you have to buy a new computer to change operating system, and that companies who take your money give impartial advice and tell you the full truth ever.
We don't even know if the woman asked the college or not, but the notion that the course required Microsoft Office had to have come from somewhere.
So here we see a pattern of nobody telling the full truth, and overly simplifying things - "as good as not working" - when really everything would have worked all along. This culminated in her going to a local TV station and blaming Ubuntu, whose support community didn't get a chance to be fucked over by trolls and assholes until after the fact.
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@ComputerForumUser said:
The reality is that somewhere between a Cyrix P150+ and a K6-2 500 you get enough performance for mp3 decoding to be done in realtime while simultaneously scrolling a page of html.
In all fairness: while that may be possible I wouldn't recommend running Windows Vista with Aero, iTunes 8 and Outlook 2007 simaltaniously on a K6-2 500. You certainly don't need a Intel i7 Octo Extreme 8,6 Ghz for it, but I would recommend either a low-end dual core like the Athlon X2 5000+ (€49) or Pentium Dual-core E5200 (€59) or a low-midrange singrange single-core like the .... O wait, they don't make those any more.
Seriously, every system has a dual-core nowadays so Dell is just using that in their advertising.
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@Aaron said:
If everything else about Ubuntu is different from Microsoft/Windows, what would compel you to think that you should be able to use the same support strategy? You are not Bill Gates. You don't have the advertising budget to spread major awareness of your product. You don't have any sort of reputation backing you up. You don't have an intuitive enough product to skimp on support. You certainly don't have the market share to reasonably expect that Joe the Plumber's brother or son is going to know anything about a problem or be able to fix it.
IMHO Windows isn't any more intuitive then modern consumer oriented linux distributions. I've been using gentoo-linux as my main desktop OS for a few years now and i've never really used Windows Vista. Sometimes I have to help someone with there Vista PC, and I have to look for some setting that they've moved since windows XP. That isn't too much of a problem though, you can usually find what you're looking for in a minute or so.
The thing is, it isn't much different from, for example, Ubuntu. I've never used it, and I've never even seen the GUI-configuration-tools that they use, but when I have to I can usually find what i'm looking for pretty quickly.
In my opinion, the switch from Windows XP to Windows Vista isn't much bigger then from Windows XP to Ubuntu. You can basically do the same stuff, it's just that everything is shuffled around a bit. The switch from IE6 to IE7 is just as big as the jump from IE6 to Firefox, and the jump from office 2003 to 2007 isn't much bigger then the jump to Openoffice.
Ofcourse, your points about marketing and market share still stand.
@Aaron said:
Maybe, some day, if you manage to gain even a 10% market share, you might be able to act more like Microsoft. But in order to get there, you really need to get your foot in the door, and that means making sure that every last idiot who was good-hearted enough to guinea-pig your shitty OS feels completely comfortable.
I agree with you, and others, that if linux really want to get mainstream it has to get invest in marketing and support. But I think it's unfair to judge a product on it's popularity.
Ubuntu isn't any more 'shitty' or 'a defective product' than Windows is. It's different. If the woman from the article doesn't want to learn how to use it, that's fine. It is, however, egocentrical to conclude Ubuntu is defective just because SHE doesn't want to, or can't, use it.
Operating systems should be transparant to the user, it's just that they aren't.Present-day computer users have to know what OS they are running. There are lots of obvious differences between Vista and XP, and some software doesn't work on one of those versions. Knowing your operating system is basic knowledge for every computer user, even though it should be. And if you order a computer without windows installed, that is your resposibility. The woman from the story made a mistake, even though it could, and maybe even should, have been caught by dell, but it IS her fault. No biggie, everyone makes mistakes. The problem could have been solved by simply contacting dell. TRWTF is that this woman has the problem solving skills of a 3 year old, or the dell support staff is totally incapable. (Dell should have explained to her that she probably wants to have Windows, and that they could install it for $$$)
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@tster said:
The problem with this is that you assume that someone that doesn't learn about how computers works is not learning anything. This couldn't be further from the truth. The reason that a lot of people don't want to learn a lot about computers is because they are busy learning about other shit. Take a lawyer for instance. If he's busy learning about how to build the linux nvidia drivers into the new linux kernel, he can't be reading about the latest supreme court descision.
Or try thinking about it this way. Imagine a board full of accountants and IRS employees. They start talking about a software engineer (lets say Jeff) who was one of their clients who filled out a 1040 with all his contract income on it. They all start making fun of him and assume he is an idiot who doesn't even bother to learn anything or read up on taxes, which are obviously important because about 40% of your income goes to taxes. Obviously if Jeff weren't such a lazy idiot he would have known to file a 1099. So Jeff's accountant didn't fix the problem and tell Jeff about the 1099, instead he sent the 1040 to the IRS who got it and told Jeff that he fucked up and that now his taxes are late and he owes some serious penalties. Of course you can say Jeff fucked up, but he hired an Accountant who is a tax professional so that he doesn't have to learn all this shit.
The same thing applies here. This woman isn't a computer professional. So she went to Dell, who should be acting as the professionals in this case, and said, "Here is $1100, please give me a computer." Then Dell fucked up and let her order a computer with Ubuntu on it even though it won't work for her purposes.
Nice analogy. Computers should be as simple and easy as possible, but not one bit more (apologies to Einstein). Not requiring computer users to be computer experts is simple division of labor, a basic of economics that permits the massive and wonderful wealth we enjoy today. Computers have evolved significantly, but clearly have much that can be improved. Things should just work, but this is easier said than done. We could spend all day arguing about what is too simple or too hard for your average user: HCI is a rich, complex topic. However, the people here are not picking nits, they are essentially saying that this woman should have Googled for an answer, installed Wine, etc.. That is just bullshit. Clearly connecting to the Internet and editing documents can be much, much easier than Ubuntu makes it. In my case, I don't need that level of simplicity so Linux is just fine. In fact, it works better for me because it exposes more of the guts than Windows and OSX which permits me to learn more quickly and try different things out while keeping me in a mindset of someone who builds software, not someone who uses it.
Like a lot of the people here, I do tech support for friends and family and I have some fairly technically-sophisticated friends but I would never wish Linux (in its current state) on any of them. Honestly, walking someone through a Windows problem on the phone is enough of a pain in the ass as it is. I wouldn't consider OSX to be particularly easier to use, but Apple does seem to invest more time and money in user education and support. Of course, you end up paying for this, but Apple's success shows how important this is to a lot of people. I'm by no means a fan of Apple's products, but I do admit that their in-store Genius Bars and user support are excellently executed. I've known a variety of users from not-so-savvy graphic artists to extremely-savvy programmers who use OSX and while I don't see anything special about the hardware or software, it's clear that they consider the support to be one of the best parts and don't have any problem shelling out the extra cash to not have to sweat the details.
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@dtech said:
In all fairness: while that may be possible I wouldn't recommend running Windows Vista with Aero, iTunes 8 and Outlook 2007 simaltaniously on a K6-2 500. You certainly don't need a Intel i7 Octo Extreme 8,6 Ghz for it, but I would recommend either a low-end dual core like the Athlon X2 5000+ (€49) or Pentium Dual-core E5200 (€59) or a low-midrange singrange single-core like the .... O wait, they don't make those any more.
Seriously, every system has a dual-core nowadays so Dell is just using that in their advertising.
I forgot to mention that it was before Vista came out, and they weren't so much advertising it as recommending it to a fictional customer, and dual cores were the high-end systems of the time. It seems now like foresight, if a little self-fulfilling.
The thing that bugged me is that people try to oversimplify things into "layman's terms" but end up changing the meaning or implications of what they're talking about, and this whole story seems to me to have been caused by that.
It used to bug me lots when people weren't accurate about things, then I started to see how often people don't need all the information and relaxed about it. Now I still don't think people necessarily need all the information but what they are told should at least be true and accurate.
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@Helix said:
more evidence tht linux is not suitable for 'joe the computer user'
Heh, Ubuntu is like the 'Chinese made imitation iPhones' of the OS world.
dell is probably sick of people buying PCs with linux and then calling it to get it upgrades to windows for the diffrence between the two options.
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As for the Ubuntu debate, I'd like to add that I tossed a livecd to my mom. She was like "meh". Things worked nicely and everything, but improvements were so subtle and non-revolutionary that she was like "meh".
I have to agree.
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@dhromed said:
What's wrong with that?@Helix said:
@Helix said:
stuff.
Also stuff.
... did you just quote yourself?
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@bstorer said:
Absolutely nothing!@dhromed said:
What's wrong with that?@Helix said:
@Helix said:
stuff.
Also stuff.
... did you just quote yourself?
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@PeterF said:
IMHO Windows isn't any more intuitive then modern consumer oriented linux distributions.
Over 90% of computer users would disagree with you.
Can you point to anything specific that you find less intuitive in Windows?
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@dhromed said:
As for the Ubuntu debate, I'd like to add that I tossed a livecd to my mom. She was like "meh". Things worked nicely and everything, but improvements were so subtle and non-revolutionary that she was like "meh".
Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say "meh" at will about old ladies.
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@Aaron said:
Can you point to anything specific that you find less intuitive in Windows?
Clicking "Start" to shut off the computer?
