Since we have the I hate Oracle club, I was thinking, doesn't Java should have this "privilege" too?
Best posts made by Savior
-
The "I hate Java club"?
-
RE: The "I hate Java club"?
I'm not willing to start a flame war, with that in mind, let's start the quotes!
Yup, and a club for VB, Python, C, C++, C#, Perl, shell scripts, JavaScript, LISP, Fortran, Cobol, ADA, Assembler, TCL/TK, Pascal, ASP, PHP, CSS, SDI and THC.
Yes, feel free to start the ones you want.
I got tired of language wars about 2 years ago. The same scenarios play out again and again, and it's usually because one of:
- Someone has been coding Language A for years and has only recently tried Language B and can't find their way around it.
- Languages are written for a purpose and with an idea in mind. Programmer A does not understand the purpose or the idea behing the language.
- Comparisons are drawn between tiny aspects ("But A handles 32-bit-buffer underrun flushes in Glob objects derived from moose-aspect flubbers much better than B, so B sucks").
- Someone has had a bad experience with Language B and has abandoned it.
- Someone is simply a religious fanatic that insists everything should be done in A because they do and so should everybody else.
Language bashing is childish and useless.
Facts:
1) I'm talking about Java from a user perspective (but a user with programming knowledge)
2) I've never coded crap in java. I've never coded even a line in java. I don't know java. Java gave me terrible experiences while user, why would I code in a language that gave me a bad impression as a user?Shouldn't that be the "I-hate-being-forced-to-use-tools-I-don't-like club?" Let's go right into the core of the problem.
As I said, I've never coded java. Too crappy to me. I learned from my experiences. I researched about java. I hate java.
Once again, from my perspective, here's the core problems:
Too damn slow (For reference, first read this link: http://kano.net/javabench/ and after you B.S detector fire, scroll down, and find the link: http://www.freewebs.com/godaves/javabench_revisited/ , now, read it again)
Over hyped.
Portability? Who cares? C is portable. FreePascal is portable. Nuff said.
A "hello word" application that uses 9 fricking MB of RAM??
Oh, wait, but you can deploy once, run EVERYWHERE! See? Oh, no, wait, this java application requires the JRE 1.4.1, and will not run you yours, since it's 1.4.0. All you have to do is download a new 60 MB runtime.
OOP. Not that OOP is bad, but having a language that forces you to wrap every single line into a class, gives so much freedom.
With an array of 10000 integers, how much memory would this require in java, and in C?
Flash can do most of what java does, and is faster, and much more bug-free.And if you allow me to quote<FONT color=#000000> <FONT face=Tahoma>A. Westhauser:</FONT></FONT>
<FONT face=Tahoma color=#000000></FONT>
<FONT face=Verdana size=2>Well I've been programming Java for 5 years now, and I can tell you from experience Java SUCKS.
Here's why:
1. The JVM sucks - it handles garbage collection poorly and leaks memory. Nothing like watching the stupid thing slowly draw down all your memory and stay there after most of your users have left the Jakarta-Tomcat-servlet thingamagig, and never give it back. Makes you wanna scream!!!
2. OO taken to the utmost stupidity. I mean such convoluted garbage as: String s = new String("java sucks"); And that's the beginning! It gets worse! How about: class Basketball extends Ball implements Inflatable {}; What's wrong with the creators of Java? Seems like they were so in love with their own OO creation they took it to masturbatory lengths every time they create a new library!
3. Why are all the libraries/apps advertised as being "Enterprise"?? Every time a new one comes out, its gotta be "Enterprise". Or every time a bunch of blokes come out with a new open source such-and-such, they say its "Enterprise". IE: </FONT><FONT face=Verdana size=2>http://sourceforge.net/proje cts/ejbutils/</FONT><FONT face=Verdana size=2> or </FONT><FONT face=Verdana size=2>http://arch4j.sourceforge.ne t/</FONT><FONT face=Verdana size=2> to name just a few. So what does "Enterprise" actually mean? Technically it means serving at least a small business (ie: 10 or so users) and has a database. Whoopee. But really all it means is that these little weenie java programmers really want you to believe that their programs are very very important, and oh-so-complex.
4. Struts, Hibernate, JSP, JSF, EJB, etc. Those are some of the components used to build "Enterprise" web applications. You got it folks - to write an application whose end result is a bunch of HTML pages which are really nothing but a bunch of strings to be interpreted by a web browser. All that complexity just to render web pages... why?? The java weenies say because you need to separate logic from presentation, and you gotta scale. I'm sorry, but there are much simpler and proven ways to separate logic from presentation and java DOES NOT SCALE. I've experienced it - company spends $10K for yet another Sun server (their 3rd) because their web app gets 1000 concurrent users. What does it take to have a web app to serve 1000 concurrent users? Very little and definitely not java. Not to mention the hundreds of wasted man-hours learning how to use these ridiculously complex framework/libraries. Not to mention how much money companies lose in paying people competent enough to use these libraries, administer and manage them.
5. ORM or "Object Relational Mapping". Yep, big words as usual from the java camp. It means a method to map java's object-centric approach over top of relational data comprised of rows and columns (ie: tabular data). In practice right now it means "Hibernate" - so that java weenies can query or update a database without having to use SQL and instead use java. What it means in practice is for Hibernate to generate inefficient querying code to send to the database server and bog it right down. Sorry, but there's no excuse for a simple JOIN to turn into a mess of 4 or 5 queries. But the java weenies have acted like it was the best thing since sliced bread, as they do all new things java. This is yet another example of the masturbatory java object fantasy.
6. Sun's NIO (network IO) library. Another example of java stupidity... why does a network library in a high level language make programming sockets MORE COMPLEX than if I were to do it in C++, a system language???
7. Swing. OK I've used many GUI libraries, such as WxWidgets, Qt, WinForms, TK. But Swing is the WORST performer, and the most labour intensive to program. Not only that, it actually manages to look worse than TK. Is it cross platform? Theoretically, but not in practise. Is WxWidgets, Qt, and TK cross platform? Yes in practise.
8. Applets. Running the JVM from within the browser sounded like such a great idea didn't it... like most java ideas they sound great at first. Want to kill all your open browsers and everything you were looking at? Just run a java applet!
9. Write once run anywhere. Bullshit. It was supposed to mean ZERO-configuration on any platform. But almost every time a java application gets deployed, you had to configure the hell out of the machine to make it run with any kind of acceptable performance. Now recently I had to run a dotNet application on Linux (Mono). I was stupified it worked so well, but then again I had spent so long in the java camp that I didn't think anything like that could ever be achieved. </FONT>But I know some people will say that java is not slow, who else could I quote, besides John Carmack?
Write-once-run-anywhere. Ha. Hahahahaha. We are only testing on four platforms right now, and not a single pair has the exact same quirks. All the commercial games are tweaked and compiled individually for each (often 100+) platform. Portability is not a justification for the awful performance.
Reference: http://www.armadilloaerospace.com/n.x/johnc/Recent%20Updates
[Look for Cell phone adventures]<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Feel free to disagree.
-
RE: The "I hate Java club"?
@phelyan said:
@Savior said:
Feel free to disagree.
See my above comment about childishness of language wars. Even your good Mr Westhauser has to resort to personal insults (and incidentally proves a few of my points above).
I hate chocolate with nuts in it. Can't stand it. But I have yet to write a long article ranting about the evils of chocolate with nuts in it, because I know there's quite a few people out there who like it.
Well, I think you proved my original point well enough.Please, don't take it personally, but:
1) "War" can only exist between two entites. Could you point out what's the other language? I'm not comparing java with nothing, I'm saying I hate it. It sucks. Period.
2) "Childish" is when, after I've pointed what sucks on java, you just replied saying that it was childish, instead of proving me wrong, or at least, make me know about what I don't know about java.So, after your last post, you prove my original point: Java sucks.
Because you couldn't prove me wrong.
You just replied that it was childish, and surely it's what a grown adult would do. Just point out juvenile actions, not presenting improvements/corrections.
Feel free to prove me wrong. -
RE: The "I hate Java club"?
Then why are you trying to?
Read my initial post, it said:
Since we have the I hate Oracle club, I was thinking, doesn't Java should have this "privilege" too?
Do you think that I'm trying?Just a couple of questions (you may answer by e-mail if you like):
1. Do you actually use several platforms/OSes? Did you actually try a Java appplication on more than one?Only Windows family. I know, bash me.
2. Did you try a recent JRE (like 1.4.2 or 1.5)? On what hardware configurations?Last time, I was after an application in java, (win XP), and I wasn't really willing to look at it bad. I thought: "Well, it must have been improved, can't be all that bad if they are using it", until I realised that all that I needed to run the application, was the JRE 1.4.1, and the smallest package consisted of only 60MB. Only. 1 GHz pc.
I've installed, didn't like the performance, and uninstalled the JRE. I'm not willing to look at it again for a long time.
3. (Ok, three questions) Are you aware that you can program for the Java platform in other, saner languages?
Like, you can code a dll in another language and use JNI to call it? If it's this, yes, I know.
But then, you just blow the portability, and you have to use another language to do the core work, mostly because of speed, in this case (or why would you code a dll in another language, if you are using java?)
If it's not this the answer, tell me. -
RE: X++
Hey, at least, XML is human-readable!
Now, we can brag not only for using XML as a database, but also that we are using X++ - A programming language made of XML!
Talk about Buzzword and hyping now. -
RE: The "I hate Java club"?
Man, forget these people. They can't keep a conversation without having to bitch and rant about this or that. And now, you should have also learned that they can't understand other's points...
Just look at the initial post:
"Since we have the I hate Oracle club, I was thinking, doesn't Java should have this "privilege" too? "
And now, read the replies... -
RE: The "I hate Java club"?
Yes, I'm a troll. Now that you realise this, why don't people let this thread die?
-
RE: The "I hate Java club"?
@naturally_iced said:
"Flash can do most of what java does, and is faster, and much more bug-free."
Dude, have you ever worked on any serious project in your life? You're ranting and raving
about stuff you have no clue about. Anyone that drops a reference to FreePascal in an argument
about programming languages is out of their god damn mind. How much have you ever been paid to write
an app in pascal? Maybe Delphi, but even that's garbage and *not* portable.I feel enchanted that you've gone trough the trouble of registering just to be able to post on this thread!
Haha! Delphi = garbage! FreePascal = out of my god damn mind!
Aren't you saying this because you're angry about java?
Heh [H] -
RE: The "I hate Java club"?
@phelyan said:
No doubt you will be writing another long reply to this and before we know it we're deep in a discussion that should not take place. But, as I said, it's almost midnight here and tiredness sometimes makes me do things I shouldn't be doing.Heh, looking from the posts, I remember well that you was the one that started it all, saying that it was childish and pointless, even though you keep replying.
Not anymore.
Nor with you.