News Flash: Firefox still stupid; Firefox support people also stupid



  • So I griped a bit about Firefox on Twitter today, and ended up in the damndest conversation with a person who is, I presume, paid by Mozilla to do Twitter support? Anyway, it went like this:

    @@blakeyrat said:

    Hey here's a shocker: Firefox is doing an auto-update to version 7.0.1 and... what's that? INCOMPATIBLE ADD-ONS? Unpossible!

    @@blakeyrat said:

    Seriously, FF, you suck ass. Figure it the fuck out already.

    @@H34V3NG0D said:

    @Blakeyrat can you tell me those addon name? #fxhelp

    @@blakeyrat said:

    @H34V3NG0D Firebug and some Java ... thing. The rapid upgrade process makes using ANY add-ons impossible, since they break every week.

    @@blakeyrat said:

    @H34V3NG0D Look I'm no software genius, but somehow Chrome manages rapid updates without breaking add-ons every 10 minutes. Do what they do.

    @@H34V3NG0D said:

    @Blakeyrat firebug 1.8.3 is fully compatible with Firefox 7 try it #fxhelp

    @@H34V3NG0D said:

    @Blakeyrat tell me those addon name which are incompatible for you in firefox 7 #fxhelp

    @@blakeyrat said:

    @H34V3NG0D Look, I hit the button that says upgrade, FF itself says it's not compatible. THIS IS A PROBLEM.

    @@blakeyrat said:

    @H34V3NG0D FF says "hey look for newer version of Firebug" and then it doesn't find any. THIS IS A PROBLEM.

    @@H34V3NG0D said:

    @Blakeyrat i never heard this again.maybe all component mixed up, download frsh installer of firefox getfirefox.com #fxhelp

    @@blakeyrat said:

    @H34V3NG0D I download a fresh version of Firefox every fucking 6 weeks now. This is exactly what I'm complaining about.

    @@H34V3NG0D said:

    @Blakeyrat contact SUMO support.mozilla.com/en-US/question… firefox support team, they will no whats going on #fxhelp

    @@blakeyrat said:

    @H34V3NG0D I already know what's going on, they're breaking every add-on every 6 weeks. What I want is it to stop.

    @@H34V3NG0D said:

    @Blakeyrat i never see like your problem, which version are you using currently? #fxhelp

    @@blakeyrat said:

    @H34V3NG0D 7.0.1 apparently. Isn't that where this conversation started?

    @@H34V3NG0D said:

    @Blakeyrat i will reply your tweet tomorrow, bye #fxhelp

    @@blakeyrat said:

    @H34V3NG0D Does Mozilla pay you or something? Your shift just ended?

    It's like being able to deal with Verizon support... but for free! What a bargain.



  • BTW I actually looked it up, and the two incompatible add-ons are: FiddlerHook 2.3.4.4 and Java Console 6.0.26. So Firefox didn't break Firebug by updating, it "only" broke Java and Fiddler. Brilliant. But hey, there's a Justin Bieber theme!

    Firebug was indeed compatible, so I guess the Real WTF was me in this case.



  • Have you ever considered the idea that maybe you've got some technology hex on you?  Do you recall a time where you wrote some really terrible code and didn't buy any offsets?



  • @C-Octothorpe said:

    Have you ever considered the idea that maybe you've got some technology hex on you?

    That depends. Has anybody here had Firefox auto-update to version 7.0.1 and not break Fiddler and Java Console? I assume that would happen to everybody... right?

    @C-Octothorpe said:

    Do you recall a time where you wrote some really terrible code and didn't buy any offsets?

    Uh... what? Pretty sure I've never bought "offsets". (You mean carbon credits? Like from Al Gore?)



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @C-Octothorpe said:
    Have you ever considered the idea that maybe you've got some technology hex on you?
    That depends. Has anybody here had Firefox auto-update to version 7.0.1 and not break Fiddler and Java Console? I assume that would happen to everybody... right?
    It's called a joke.  Don't worry, we'll still think you're a bad-ass rebel even if your not a dick all the time...@blakeyrat said:
    @C-Octothorpe said:
    Do you recall a time where you wrote some really terrible code and didn't buy any offsets?
    Uh... what? Pretty sure I've never bought "offsets". (You mean carbon credits? Like from Al Gore?)
    Also a joke, but there are these things called bad code offsets.



  • Yeah, you're totally right about their messed up release cycle. If they're going to mimic Chrome's release cycle, then they need to do it as unobtrusively as Chrome does. Never once have I ever been bothered to upgrade Chrome, nor have I ever seen anything that says my add-ons for Chrome were incompatible. This is really just half-assed, lazy, and not how Mozilla should be handling things.



  •  Isn't java bla.bla.27 (instead of 26) the current java release? I know my firefox on windows used to have a lot of old java consoles without the option to remove them. I think it's a big win that older java console versions now stop working.

     Also, I don't think I need the java console. what is it good for? It's not needed for java, AFAIK. (Then again, I'm not using java applets all that often, so it might be needed and I simply haven't noticed yet.) Thankfully, apt-get saves me from most update problems. No firefox addons have stopped working for me yet, but I'm only using mainstream extensions.. YMMV.

    The new version numbering is a pretty big WTF though.



  •  The real WTF is java applets and/or needing to work with them



  • Wait, you're saying if I get twitter, I could get blakeyrants delivered DIRECTLY TO MY PHONE?!



  • Yes, but only in ~140 byte chunks.



  • @Sutherlands said:

    Wait, you're saying if I get twitter, I could get blakeyrants delivered DIRECTLY TO MY PHONE?!

    I'm already enjoying the pleasure.



  • @nexekho said:

    Yes, but only in ~140 byte chunks.

    So it's actually more of a blakeymutter and not a full-fledged blakeyrant.



  • @frits said:

    @Sutherlands said:

    Wait, you're saying if I get twitter, I could get blakeyrants delivered DIRECTLY TO MY PHONE?!

    I'm already enjoying the pleasure.

    Act now and you'll also get rants about 15-year-old Star Trek episodes I'm watching on Netflix.



  • @PSWorx said:

    @nexekho said:
    Yes, but only in ~140 byte chunks.
    So it's actually more of a blakeymutter and not a full-fledged blakeyrant.

    You'd be surprised with the efficiency of his twitriole.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @C-Octothorpe said:
    Have you ever considered the idea that maybe you've got some technology hex on you?

    That depends. Has anybody here had Firefox auto-update to version 7.0.1 and not break Fiddler and Java Console? I assume that would happen to everybody... right?

     

     From my current firefox installation:

    Working: Adblock Plus, British English Dictionary, Anti-Aliasing Tuner (That I need it is the real wtf)

    Marked as working but broken: Google Plus Manager

    Broken: Skype, Adobe Contribute, Adobe Acrobat, Java Console

     

    I also spent 2 hours on some guys mac last week trying to get Adobe PDF to work inside of a browser - I had to turn Safari into 32-bit mode and then reinstall Acrobat Reader. On Firefox it's just plain not working, since the addon is still on Firefox 3.5-API.

     Also: Why the fuck do they break the plugin-API with point-releases now?

    Bonus-WTF: They are proposing an even faster schedule now. Somebody inside the project management must be really scared of chrome.



  • @nexekho said:

    Yes, but only in ~140 byte chunks.
     

    You say that like it's a bad thing.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    BTW I actually looked it up, and the two incompatible add-ons are: FiddlerHook 2.3.4.4 and Java Console 6.0.26. So Firefox didn't break Firebug by updating, it "only" broke Java and Fiddler. Brilliant. But hey, there's a Justin Bieber theme!

    Firebug was indeed compatible, so I guess the Real WTF was me in this case.

    I think the FF guys are using some messed up version of the 80/20 rule as development baseline. "If the stuff 80% of people use, works 20% of the time, we're good to go".


  • This has been a problem since back in the days of the original Mozilla Suite, before Firefox.   I have programs that were written back in the days of Windows 95 that work perfectly fine on Windows 7, but Mozilla has steadfastly refused to create some sort of stable framework for extensions so that things don't get completely fucked up every time a new version comes out.   The only thing extension developers can do is check version numbers -- except that's gone out the window now, due to the beyond-absurd release schedule where they increment the major version number every time they make minor changes.  What they are calling Firefox 7.01 should really be called Firefox 4.04.  Actually, Firefox 4.0 was really Firefox 3.7 which they abandoned after two alpha builds and then jumped the version number up to 4.0.

    And yes, Java console doesn't work in Firefox 7 for me either.  Fortunately I don't really need it.  And based on that conversation, yes they are really stupid.@blakeyrat said:

    @@blakeyrat said:
    @H34V3NG0D I already know what's going on, they're breaking every add-on every 6 weeks. What I want is it to stop.
    I have seen a number of posts by various Mozilla people in various foums and they have made it very clear that they have absolutely no plans of ever fixing any of their fuckups, or even admitting that they fucked up, because every design decision they have ever made has been absolutely perfect and exactly The Right Thing®.   In other words, they don't give a fuck what you think.



  • @El_Heffe said:

    And yes, Java console doesn't work in Firefox 7 for me either.  Fortunately I don't really need it.

    I don't even know what it does, so I'm virtually certain I don't need it. (The only Java app I use via the web is WebEx, and I do that in IE. Which doesn't break every week.) But the point is: it shouldn't break.

    @El_Heffe said:

    @blakeyrat said:
    @@blakeyrat said:
    @H34V3NG0D I already know what's going on, they're breaking every add-on every 6 weeks. What I want is it to stop.
    I have seen a number of posts by various Mozilla people in various foums and they have made it very clear that they have absolutely no plans of ever fixing any of their fuckups, or even admitting that they fucked up, because every design decision they have ever made has been absolutely perfect and exactly The Right Thing®. In other words, they don't give a fuck what you think.

    I know, but I can't ditch them until their marketshare goes below 5% or so, which means I have to suffer too for the next few years while all their users leave.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    So I griped a bit about Firefox on Twitter today, and ended up in the damndest conversation with a person who is, I presume, paid by Mozilla to do Twitter support?

    Why didn't you presume that it was just some unpaid volunteer attempting to be helpful like you find in open-source support mailing lists everywhere?  No, no need to answer it, that was a rhetorical question; the answer is "In order to justify your sense of entitlement".

    @@blakeyrat said:

    [ ... ] you suck ass. Figure it the fuck out already. [ ... ] impossible [ ... ] breaking add-ons every 10 minutes [ ... ] THIS IS A PROBLEM [ ... ] THIS IS A PROBLEM [ ... ] every fucking 6 weeks [ ... ]

    You have a real attitude problem.  Are you a dick to shop staff and waiters IRL too, or is it only people you're safely separated from by a keyboad?

    @@blakeyrat said:

    @H34V3NG0D Does Mozilla pay you or something? Your shift just ended?

    I imagine he just got tired of you being a rude whiny sarcastic dickweed at him.  Being an unpaid volunteer, he's not obliged to put up with your crap.  TRWTF is you giving some poor random sod on Twitter a hard time over shit he's not remotely responsible for when he's just trying to help you, based entirely on your self-entitled and completely bogus assumption about him.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @PSWorx said:

    @blakeyrat said:
    BTW I actually looked it up, and the two incompatible add-ons are: FiddlerHook 2.3.4.4 and Java Console 6.0.26. So Firefox didn't break Firebug by updating, it "only" broke Java and Fiddler. Brilliant. But hey, there's a Justin Bieber theme!

    Firebug was indeed compatible, so I guess the Real WTF was me in this case.

    I think the FF guys are using some messed up version of the 80/20 rule as development baseline. "If the stuff 80% of people use, works 20% of the time, we're good to go".

    You guys must be corporate users. You're not their target market.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @El_Heffe said:

    This has been a problem since back in the days of the original Mozilla Suite, before Firefox.   I have programs that were written back in the days of Windows 95 that work perfectly fine on Windows 7, but Mozilla has steadfastly refused to create some sort of stable framework for extensions so that things don't get completely fucked up every time a new version comes out.   The only thing extension developers can do is check version numbers -- except that's gone out the window now, due to the beyond-absurd release schedule where they increment the major version number every time they make minor changes.  What they are calling Firefox 7.01 should really be called Firefox 4.04.  Actually, Firefox 4.0 was really Firefox 3.7 which they abandoned after two alpha builds and then jumped the version number up to 4.0.

    And yes, Java console doesn't work in Firefox 7 for me either.  Fortunately I don't really need it.  And based on that conversation, yes they are really stupid.@blakeyrat said:

    @@blakeyrat said:
    @H34V3NG0D I already know what's going on, they're breaking every add-on every 6 weeks. What I want is it to stop.
    I have seen a number of posts by various Mozilla people in various foums and they have made it very clear that they have absolutely no plans of ever fixing any of their fuckups, or even admitting that they fucked up, because every design decision they have ever made has been absolutely perfect and exactly The Right Thing®.   In other words, they don't give a fuck what you think.

    Well, you know what's going on here, don't you? It's The CADT Model



  • @FrostCat said:

    You guys must be corporate users. You're not their target market.

    Oh so you support Mozilla.

    @FrostCat said:

    Well, you know what's going on here, don't you? It's The CADT Model

    Oh so you agree Mozilla is a WTF...

    What happened in those 3 minutes to change your mind?



  • @FrostCat said:

    Well, you know what's going on here, don't you? It's The CADT Model
    I think Mozilla uses the FOAD model.

     



  • @DaveK said:

    You have a real attitude problem.  Are you a dick to shop staff and waiters IRL too, or is it only people you're safely separated from by a keyboad?
     

    Blakey is sometimes a dick and sometimes a troll and sometimes both at the same time.  But if you read the responses he got from that other person, they are so incredibly stupid and useless it's really pretty awesome.  In fairness to H34V3NG0D, Blakey may have made the same mistake that I did when I first read his post -- I glanced at the name and didn't give it any thought.  It was only later that I realized H34V3NG0D is leet-speak for HeavenGod.  Which tells me that this is probably just some random person who most likely knows less than nothing about everything.



  • @El_Heffe said:

    Which tells me that this is probably just some random person who most likely knows less than nothing about everything.

    He's 16.  He knows everything.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @FrostCat said:
    You guys must be corporate users. You're not their target market.

    Oh so you support Mozilla.

    @FrostCat said:

    Well, you know what's going on here, don't you? It's The CADT Model

    Oh so you agree Mozilla is a WTF...

    What happened in those 3 minutes to change your mind?

     

    I think the reference to Mozilla claiming that corporate users aren't their target market was the first dig at Mozilla, and the CADT model link was the second dig at Mozilla.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @FrostCat said:
    You guys must be corporate users. You're not their target market.

    Oh so you support Mozilla.

    @FrostCat said:

    Well, you know what's going on here, don't you? It's The CADT Model

    Oh so you agree Mozilla is a WTF...

    What happened in those 3 minutes to change your mind?

    Hmmm...?



  • I assumed Java Console was deliberately marked incompatible in response to the BEAST attack, as floated e.g. [url=http://thehackernews.com/2011/09/firefox-java-update-ready-to-stop-beast.html]here[/url]. I could well be wrong about that of course, but I really don't care anyway; I use FF for a very limited set of purposes and sites, and none of them need Java.



  • If only it were add-ons that were breaking all the time. This is a screenshot of our web design's git repo:




  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @blakeyrat said:

    @FrostCat said:
    You guys must be corporate users. You're not their target market.

    Oh so you support Mozilla.

    @FrostCat said:

    Well, you know what's going on here, don't you? It's The CADT Model

    Oh so you agree Mozilla is a WTF...

    What happened in those 3 minutes to change your mind?

    Nothing. The first sentence was a joke. Or perhaps, prophetic: By not being thrilled with upgrading every 6 weeks, damn the consequences, you've become "not their target market."


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @blakeyrat said:
    @FrostCat said:
    You guys must be corporate users. You're not their target market.
    Oh so you support Mozilla. @FrostCat said:
    Well, you know what's going on here, don't you? It's The CADT Model
    Oh so you agree Mozilla is a WTF...

    What happened in those 3 minutes to change your mind?

    Hmmm...?

    (manual quoting--the Quote button didn't work for some reason; it just refreshed the page.)

    Just to clarify, the second comment wasn't sarcasm at all. Anyone who clicked through might want to poke around the site a bit and see if they recognize the owner's name.



  • @SlyEcho said:

    If only it were add-ons that were breaking all the time. This is a screenshot of our web design's git repo:



    Reminds me of the time I decided to fuck browser-specific hacks and put code to sniff the user-agent and insert appropriate classes into body, thinking it to be some sort of "stand" against -(webkit|moz|o|ms)-CSS3.

    .opera #windowBackground {
    	background-image: url(opera_background.svg);
    }
    .webkit #windowBackground {
    	background: -webkit-gradient(linear, left top, left bottom, from(#ffffff), to(#e0e0ff));
    }
    .mozilla #windowBackground {
    	background: -moz-linear-gradient(top,  #e0e0ff,  #ffffff);
    }
    .msie #windowBackground {
    	position: absolute;
    	filter: progid:DXImageTransform.Microsoft.gradient(startColorstr='#e0e0ff', endColorstr='#ffffff');
    }

    Yes I am aware the gradient is backwards in certain browsers, and no I don't really give a fuck.



  • The more I hear about FF upgrades, the happier I am about my decision to stop upgrading at 2.0.0.16 - the plugins I rely on work, and there are other browsers out there for everything else.



  • It gets even better - I just reinstalled Firefox. And right after installing the browser, I also wanted to install my favourite plugin: Firebug.

    Thus I clicked on the menu, selected "Addons" and typed "firebug" into the search box.

    "No addons found with such a name!" - right.

    And we're off to a good start! Let's not mention that a certain search engine found the correct link at the first try with the exact same search term.



  • @DaveK said:

    @blakeyrat said:

    So I griped a bit about Firefox on Twitter today, and ended up in the damndest conversation with a person who is, I presume, paid by Mozilla to do Twitter support?

    Why didn't you presume that it was just some unpaid volunteer attempting to be helpful like you find in open-source support mailing lists everywhere?  No, no need to answer it, that was a rhetorical question; the answer is "In order to justify your sense of entitlement".

    @@blakeyrat said:

    [ ... ] you suck ass. Figure it the fuck out already. [ ... ] impossible [ ... ] breaking add-ons every 10 minutes [ ... ] THIS IS A PROBLEM [ ... ] THIS IS A PROBLEM [ ... ] every fucking 6 weeks [ ... ]

    You have a real attitude problem.  Are you a dick to shop staff and waiters IRL too, or is it only people you're safely separated from by a keyboad?

    @@blakeyrat said:

    @H34V3NG0D Does Mozilla pay you or something? Your shift just ended?

    I imagine he just got tired of you being a rude whiny sarcastic dickweed at him.  Being an unpaid volunteer, he's not obliged to put up with your crap.  TRWTF is you giving some poor random sod on Twitter a hard time over shit he's not remotely responsible for when he's just trying to help you, based entirely on your self-entitled and completely bogus assumption about him.

    I get so sick and tired of the "It's free so you have no right to complain" argument. That's the problem with the entire open source community right there, that they think by virtue of giving away their software, they can stand on a pedestal and be completely immune to any and all criticism. And Firefox doesn't even have that to stand on, Mozilla is a publicly traded company last I looked, with employees and everything. Them deciding their browser is free does not by any means make it good by default.
    br/>If you aren't going to do it right, then just don't do it. I'd rather NOT have a browser option than a shit browser option.


  • @Master Chief said:

    Mozilla is a publicly traded company.
    Not quite, but they do get something in the area of $55 Million a year from Google.  So yeah, they've got people working full time on Fireofx and getting paid to do it, and they have a really shitty attitude toward their customers.

    Speaking of Google, Mozilla's contract with Google expires at the end of this year.  Since Google makes their own browser that is quickly taking market share away from Firefox, I can't believe that Google would continue to pay millions of dollars to a compettitor.

     



  • @El_Heffe said:

    Speaking of Google, Mozilla's contract with Google expires at the end of this year. Since Google makes their own browser that is quickly taking market share away from Firefox, I can't believe that Google would continue to pay millions of dollars to a compettitor.

    If FF is lucky, they'll get another year. If they're brilliant at negotiating, they'll get two. Past that? They'll either grovel to Microsoft for some Bing cash, or die.

    Oh and to everybody calling me a dick: I would like to point out that HE reached out to ME. I didn't ask for help. As it turns out, he was:
    1) A volunteer
    2) Under the mistaken impression that Fiddler wasn't being actively developed anymore, and that was why the Fiddler add-on didn't work



  • @blakeyrat said:

    As it turns out, he was:

    1) A volunteer
     

    Which makes it even more ridiculous, because it turns out I was low in my recollection of their income.  According to Wikipedia, Mozilla's total revenue n 2009
    was $104 Million.



  • @El_Heffe said:

    @blakeyrat said:

    As it turns out, he was:

    1) A volunteer

    Which makes it even more ridiculous, because it turns out I was low in my recollection of their income. According to Wikipedia, Mozilla's total revenue n 2009
    was $104 Million.

    I asked if he was getting college credits or anything, and he said no. The guy's just nuts.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @El_Heffe said:

    @blakeyrat said:

    As it turns out, he was:

    1) A volunteer

    Which makes it even more ridiculous, because it turns out I was low in my recollection of their income. According to Wikipedia, Mozilla's total revenue n 2009
    was $104 Million.

    I asked if he was getting college credits or anything, and he said no. The guy's just nuts.

    It's called fanaticism, and it's a very Dangerous Thing™. But seriously, like you've echo'd, and boomzilla, the attitude of open source is complete shit. At one point I could've been considered an open source fanboy, but I've seen the light... not like paying money for a service gets much better results, but at least nobody bitches at me that it's free.



  • @Rhywden said:

    typed "firebug" into the search box.

    "No addons found with such a name!" - right.

     

    Unable to reproduce.

     



  • @lrucker said:

    The more I hear about FF upgrades
     

    Good on you for having an strong opinion about something that you've apparently never tried first-hand because of hear-say. If only we were all as critically-minded as you are.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    If FF is lucky, they'll get another year. If they're brilliant at negotiating, they'll get two. Past that? They'll either grovel to Microsoft for some Bing cash, or die.
     

    I hope not. I really don't like the other browsers.



  • @dohpaz42 said:

    But seriously, like you've echo'd, and boomzilla, the attitude of open source is complete shit.

    The attitude of people on this forum is also complete shit.

    @dohpaz42 said:

    At one point I could've been considered an open source fanboy, but I've seen the light...

    You like black and white thinking, don't you? You either have to be a fanboy or hate it.

    @dohpaz42 said:

    not like paying money for a service gets much better results, but at least nobody bitches at me that it's free.

    Eh? I personally would rather be bitched at and receive nothing than pay money and receive nothing.

    Yes, I'm still using Firefox. I do try others from time to time, and they do have some superior features in some areas. I'm even cool to accept the lesser flexibility in UI and certain UI features (i.e., the trait to middle-click everything including forward and back buttons. I need that quite often). What always brings me back though is the presence of ads inside flash apps. They're horribly annoying, and so far Firefox's AdBlock Plus seems the only one to be able to ban them correctly. (Though I'm still not sure how it does that)



  • Don't worry, blakeyrat is just a computer luddite



  • @MiffTheFox said:

    Reminds me of the time I decided to fuck browser-specific hacks
     

    I think that's illegal here in Massachusetts.



  • @derula said:

    What always brings me back though is the presence of ads inside flash apps. They're horribly annoying, and so far Firefox's AdBlock Plus seems the only one to be able to ban them correctly. (Though I'm still not sure how it does that)

    Firefox AFAIK is the only browser that exposes the ability to intercept requests made by plugins to extensions. If I did anything about flash app ads though, it'd be seeing if I can get EasyList to work with my Privoxy server.



  • @dhromed said:

    @Rhywden said:

    typed "firebug" into the search box.

    "No addons found with such a name!" - right.

     

    Unable to reproduce.

     

    Yeah, that's what I thought at first. A reboot seems to have fixed the issue. It seems as if the add-on plugin of Firefox was not able to connect to the internet. But instead of displaying an error, it simply failed silently. And the rest of the browser worked right off the bat. Very weird.



  • @dhromed said:

    Unable to reproduce.

    Isn't that very common among nerds?


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