No operating System



  • Hi,

     Amzon told me I would like to buy Windows. I have an MSDN subscription...

    [URL=http://img813.imageshack.us/i/unbenanntbb.png/][IMG]http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/6082/unbenanntbb.png[/IMG][/URL]

    But in one point the are not too far away from the truth.



  • The upgrade is about half the price and contains the full version on-disk (obviously).

    It's a scam.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @hallo.amt said:

     Amzon told me I would like to buy Windows. I have an MSDN subscription...
    So?

    @Microsoft said:

    Many MSDN subscribers use a computer for mixed use—both design,
    development, testing, and demonstration of your programs (the use
    allowed under the MSDN subscription license) and some other use.  Using
    the software in any other way, such as for doing email, playing games,
    or editing a document is another use and is not covered by the MSDN
    subscription license.  When this happens, the underlying operating
    system must also be licensed normally by purchasing a regular copy of
    Windows such as the one that came with a new OEM PC.



  • @Microsoft said:

    Many MSDN subscribers use a computer for mixed use—both design, development, testing, and demonstration of your programs (the use allowed under the MSDN subscription license) and some other use. Using the software in any other way, such as for doing email, playing games, or editing a document is another use and is not covered by the MSDN subscription license. When this happens, the underlying operating system must also be licensed normally by purchasing a regular copy of Windows such as the one that came with a new OEM PC.

    It is stuff like this that makes me huff and puff and use Linux whenever possible.



  • @PeaceFaker said:

    @Microsoft said:
    Many MSDN subscribers use a computer for mixed use—both design, development, testing, and demonstration of your programs (the use allowed under the MSDN subscription license) and some other use. Using the software in any other way, such as for doing email, playing games, or editing a document is another use and is not covered by the MSDN subscription license. When this happens, the underlying operating system must also be licensed normally by purchasing a regular copy of Windows such as the one that came with a new OEM PC.

    It is stuff like this that makes me huff and puff and use Linux whenever possible.

    ... why?

    "Curse you, perfectly reasonable license restrictions!"



  • @Microsoft said:

    Many MSDN subscribers use a computer for mixed use—both design, development, testing, and demonstration of your programs (the use allowed under the MSDN subscription license) and some other use. Using the software in any other way, such as for doing email, playing games, or editing a document is another use and is not covered by the MSDN subscription license. When this happens, the underlying operating system must also be licensed normally by purchasing a regular copy of Windows such as the one that came with a new OEM PC.

    So I may develop a program but I may not document it? I admit, that's at least in step with practice...



  • @PSWorx said:

    So I may develop a program but I may not document it? I admit, that's at least in step with practice...

     Usage of Office depends on your subscription:

     @Microsoft said:

    If you have an Ultimate or Premium level subscription, you can also install and use one copy of certain desktop applications on one device for production use:
    • Microsoft Office Professional Plus 2010
    • Microsoft Office Project Professional 2010
    • Microsoft Office Visio Premium 2010

    To be honest, I have never heard of a case where a person is using the above tools for the SOLE PURPOSE of creating documentation for a program they are developing has been pursued. Where problems arise is that it is very easy to create a document that is in no way related to the development (et. al.) effort, triggering a license violation.

    Nearly all legitimate developers with MSDN subscriptions use a "normal" (non-MSDN) license for their operating system on their development and other "regular" boxes. The availability of operating systems via MSDN is creally for the creation of Test Environments.

    For example, you normally develop using a Window 7  [Full License Machine]. You want to verify that your program runs properly under Windows Server 2008 R2 Enterprise. Creating a (physical or virtual) machine for this purpose using the MSDN subscription is allowed.

     

     



  • @PSWorx said:

    @Microsoft said:

    Many MSDN subscribers use a computer for mixed use—both design, development, testing, and demonstration of your programs (the use allowed under the MSDN subscription license) and some other use. Using the software in any other way, such as for doing email, playing games, or editing a document is another use and is not covered by the MSDN subscription license. When this happens, the underlying operating system must also be licensed normally by purchasing a regular copy of Windows such as the one that came with a new OEM PC.

    So I may develop a program but I may not document it? I admit, that's at least in step with practice...

    In order to develop it in the first place, you will probably need a Windows license.  Tasks as simple as receiving requirements via email would constitute "other use".  The only way you could effectively develop on an MSDN licensed OS would be if it were a "clean room" type install where the development machine has no other software installed and cannot communicate with anything other than the test environment.  I'm not saying that you can't connect an MSDN licensed copy of Windows to the internet, but if you need to, then you are probably outside the licensing terms.


  •  

    @Jaime said:

    In order to develop it in the first place, you
    will probably need a Windows license.  Tasks as simple as receiving
    requirements via email would constitute "other use".  The only way you
    could effectively develop on an MSDN licensed OS would be if it were a
    "clean room" type install where the development machine has no other
    software installed and cannot communicate with anything other than the
    test environment.  I'm not saying that you can't connect an MSDN
    licensed copy of Windows to the internet, but if you need to, then you are probably outside the licensing terms.
     

    What
    if I wanted to create an .NET app that generated Word documents,
    printed them to a table, then a robot would take a picture of that
    document on a wooden table, upload that back to the test environment, do
    some manipulation using MS Paint, print it again, have the robot scan
    the photo, take it back to the test environment, and then send that
    image to myself via MS Outlook?

    Are you saying that the draconian license wouldn't even allow me to do that??? Pfft, I'm with Peacefaker. Linux would let me do it, albeit with OpenOffice and Thunderbird.



  • @RHuckster said:

    What if I wanted to create an .NET app that generated Word documents, printed them to a table, then a robot would take a picture of that document on a wooden table, upload that back to the test environment, do some manipulation using MS Paint, print it again, have the robot scan the photo, take it back to the test environment, and then send that image to myself via MS Outlook?

    Are you saying that the draconian license wouldn't even allow me to do that??? Pfft, I'm with Peacefaker. Linux would let me do it, albeit with OpenOffice and Thunderbird.

     If that is a potential end-end scenario for testing your application,. then it should all be good [FWIW: I am not "with" Microsoft, any comments on licensing are based on having run a software consulting firm for the past 25+ years].

     Just be careful not to use the environment with MsPaint for drawing Unicorns that are not related to your development effort.



  • Much of my frustration comes from being a student and getting MSDNAA showed down my throat every time I question the need for submitting everything as a MS Word document and the teaching of Excel as the tool for every use.

    Funny thing is MSDNAA does not contain MS Office. And right now I don't want to go grepping the EULA for the relevant part which states that any software I grab from MSDNAA I can keep forever but not use for commercial purposes (fair enough) nor can I let anybody else use my computer not even family (wait what?). And the selling point of MSDNAA to schools/students is that you get Windows to use on your home computer.



  • @PeaceFaker said:

    Much of my frustration comes from being a student and getting MSDNAA showed down my throat every time I question the need for submitting everything as a MS Word document and the teaching of Excel as the tool for every use. Funny thing is MSDNAA does not contain MS Office. And right now I don't want to go grepping the EULA for the relevant part which states that any software I grab from MSDNAA I can keep forever but not use for commercial purposes (fair enough) nor can I let anybody else use my computer not even family (wait what?). And the selling point of MSDNAA to schools/students is that you get Windows to use on your home computer.
     

    [Quote user="Microsoft"]

    From MSDNAA: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/academic/bb250608.aspx

    Your rights. 2) let your staff, faculty, and students use such copies, and make one additional copy on their own computer or other device, but only (a) to develop, support, conduct, or take the STEM courses, labs, or programs you offer; (b) in non-commercial STEM research on your behalf; or (c) to design, develop, test, and demonstrate software programs for the above purposes.

    a. Security measures. If you provide the software on media to your staff, faculty, or students, you must do so only on a temporary or "loaner" basis. You must have all staff, faculty, and students to whom you provide any copies of the software agree that their use of the software is governed by these terms, regardless of any license agreement accompanying the software. You must keep records of the number of downloads of the software from your servers, and records of the staff, faculty, and students to whom you provide media containing the software. You will permit Microsoft to inspect such records upon request. You will use your best efforts to prevent use of the software by anyone other than your staff, faculty, and students or for any purpose not permitted in these terms.

    [/Quote]

    So your statement of "...the EULA for the relevant part which states that any software I grab from MSDNAA I can keep forever ..." does not seem to match the actual MSDNAA EULA!



  •  @TheCPUWizard said:

    @PSWorx said:

    So I may develop a program but I may not document it? I admit, that's at least in step with practice...

     Usage of Office depends on your subscription:

     @Microsoft said:

    If you have an Ultimate or Premium level subscription, you can also install and use one copy of certain desktop applications on one device for production use:

    • Microsoft Office Professional Plus 2010
    • Microsoft Office Project Professional 2010
    • Microsoft Office Visio Premium 2010

    To be honest, I have never heard of a case where a person is using the above tools for the SOLE PURPOSE of creating documentation for a program they are developing has been pursued. Where problems arise is that it is very easy to create a document that is in no way related to the development (et. al.) effort, triggering a license violation.

     

    At least in the part you quoted, it doesn't say "sole purpose", so you could presumably install Office and do whatever Office can do (including e-mail via Outlook) and still be in the clear.

     



  • @emurphy said:

    At least in the part you quoted, it doesn't say "sole purpose", so you could presumably install Office and do whatever Office can do (including e-mail via Outlook) and still be in the clear.

    Yes, for Premium and Ultimate MSDN Licenses (but not the lower level SKU's) you can use ONE copy of Office for any purpose that you could use a store bought Retail Copy.

     



  • [Quote user="TheCPUWizard"]
    So your statement of "...the EULA for the relevant part which states that any software I grab from MSDNAA I can keep forever ..." does not seem to match the actual MSDNAA EULA!
    [/Quote]

    Aparently the EULA has evolved since my last read (when we got the MSDNAA accounts 3 years ago), since I can't find any relevant parts to my statements anymore. Still it is sold to us students as gods gift to humankind with free all you can eat Windows.



  • @PeaceFaker said:

    [Quote user="TheCPUWizard"] So your statement of "...the EULA for the relevant part which states that any software I grab from MSDNAA I can keep forever ..." does not seem to match the actual MSDNAA EULA! [/Quote] Aparently the EULA has evolved since my last read (when we got the MSDNAA accounts 3 years ago), since I can't find any relevant parts to my statements anymore. Still it is sold to us students as gods gift to humankind with free all you can eat Windows.

    [repeat disclaimer: I am not a Microsoft Licensing Expert...information posted is simply based on my experiences]

     The the best of my knowledge the MSDNAA is not "sold" to Students, it applies to schools and other research type environments, that may make have students. The licenses belong to the institution. There is a distinct program for students at most schools, that is completely independent of the schools participation in MSDNAA. I do not have the current information regarding authorized use and licensing for the student programs(s).

    One thing to keep in mind is that these programs are completely independent (in terms of licensing and EULA) from regulate paid (or complimentary through a number of channels) MSDN subscriptions, and that MsDN subscriptions come at differernt levels [as I previously pointed out one implact of the level is the ability to use a copy of Office for general-use rather than development.

     People seem to forget that the "D" in MSDN is for "Developer" and it's primary purpose is to provide assistance TO DEVELOPERS throught a number of channels: MSDN Magazine, MSDN Forums/Blogs, MSDN Downloads (public and subscriber), and quite a few more.



  •  Wait... MSDN isn't for me to have free microsoft software on all my home PCs?



  • @CnC said:

     Wait... MSDN isn't for me to have free microsoft software on all my home PCs?

    No, that what warez is for



  • Ok, so I am clearly not being coherent enough here.

    By "sold" I mean it being pushed by staff and teachers and used as an argument to discard Linux and OpenSource/Free programs. "Since we get it for free from MSDNAA anyways"

    I rebelled against the "everything has to be a Word document"-policy and managed to get most of them to accept PDF.


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