US woman says Ubuntu can't access internet
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@squeem said:
@Aaron said:
Can you point to anything specific that you find less intuitive in Windows?
Clicking "Start" to shut off the computer?
fixed in vista
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@squeem said:
@Aaron said:
Can you point to anything specific that you find less intuitive in Windows?
Clicking "Start" to shut off the computer?
For one thing I never got the fuss about this irrelevant detail, as the "Start button" abstracts away into the "Main Access" menu it is. That they removed the label in Vista is a good move, but it's truly minor.
I'm actually a tiny bit more concerned with the distribution of the main system menus of Ubuntu: instead of 1 access point, you have three.
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The very fact that ubuntu can use multiple windows managers throws itout the windows. The fact that two people using Ubuntu can have completely different experiencies and views makes itfucking difficult to find reliable information on how to do shit. For Linux users, choice is king. What they don't realize is the power of no choice for people that don't give a fuck about that choice.
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@tster said:
What they don't realize is the power of no choice for people that don't give a fuck about that choice.
No, what these ignorant Gnome users don't realize is how inferior their window manager is and how much more awesome* they could be if they switched to KDE.*aka less dirty, smelly, and hobo-like.
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@tster said:
The very fact that ubuntu can use multiple windows managers throws itout the windows. The fact that two people using Ubuntu can have completely different experiencies and views makes itfucking difficult to find reliable information on how to do shit. For Linux users, choice is king. What they don't realize is the power of no choice for people that don't give a fuck about that choice.
That's not true. If you are going to compare only the shell, keep in mind that bb4win (and various bb4win mods) allows... more advanced windows users to customize their own shell. I use bb4win and would never choose linux because of a shell difference that is possible to imitate and/or customize. Check out some of the screens from boxshots.org (iirc) from windows users!
Also, the chat rooms and forums for bb4win are very friendly and helpful. Not to mention their documentation is very good in the first place.
What I find sad is that Linux users, self perceived power users, don't really understand what a shell is and that it can be modified on windows!!!one!
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@Vechni said:
That's not true. If you are going to compare only the shell, keep in mind that bb4win (and various bb4win mods) allows... more advanced windows users to customize their own shell. I use bb4win and would never choose linux because of a shell difference that is possible to imitate and/or customize. Check out some of the screens from boxshots.org (iirc) from windows users!
I don't think that's on a par with the choice that tster was talking about.
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@Vechni said:
@tster said:
The very fact that ubuntu can use multiple windows managers throws itout the windows. The fact that two people using Ubuntu can have completely different experiencies and views makes itfucking difficult to find reliable information on how to do shit. For Linux users, choice is king. What they don't realize is the power of no choice for people that don't give a fuck about that choice.
That's not true. If you are going to compare only the shell, keep in mind that bb4win (and various bb4win mods) allows... more advanced windows users to customize their own shell. I use bb4win and would never choose linux because of a shell difference that is possible to imitate and/or customize. Check out some of the screens from boxshots.org (iirc) from windows users!
Also, the chat rooms and forums for bb4win are very friendly and helpful. Not to mention their documentation is very good in the first place.
What I find sad is that Linux users, self perceived power users, don't really understand what a shell is and that it can be modified on windows!!!one!
This reply is EXACTLY the problem with the linux community.
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@tster said:
@Vechni said:
That's not true. If you are going to compare only the shell, keep in mind that bb4win (and various bb4win mods) allows... more advanced windows users to customize their own shell. I use bb4win and would never choose linux because of a shell difference that is possible to imitate and/or customize. Check out some of the screens from boxshots.org (iirc) from windows users!
Also, the chat rooms and forums for bb4win are very friendly and helpful. Not to mention their documentation is very good in the first place.
What I find sad is that Linux users, self perceived power users, don't really understand what a shell is and that it can be modified on windows!!!one!
This reply is EXACTLY the problem with the linux community.
What is? I don't see anything about the Linux community in the comment except the implication that because I use Linux I think I'm a power user and I haven't used Windows shells on and off since Workplace Shell. (If I'm even part of the community just because I use Linux - the things people complain about regarding the community makes me think there are some other qualifiers that exclude me).
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@belgariontheking said:
I don't think that's on a par with the choice that tster was talking about.
I guess that I just wanted to plug bb4win lol. It's pretty good... it is the only stable windows mod I have used, very customizable and works with windows very well (eg: drag and drop anywhere). Just a well made shell mod which as far I am concerned in my at home computer use (youtube, games, freelance dev + hobby dev) is all I need or care about- a shell that makes sense to me (which I had to customize). I just don't care (nor see) the need for windows or linux over the other since bb4win works the same on both... I suppose I run windows because I have used it the longest and device + software compatibility.
What I'm saying is that, I hate it when people join an OS fanboy club, think they are some kind of purists on the matter, then start enumerating points solely based on shells, almost forgetting what a shell is or confusing it with THE OS. A lot of Linux users are very knowledgeable about both OS'es (as with windows enthusiasts), but there seem to be a lot more who only try to imitate that l1nuX knowledge, and sadly somehow pass as good until you actually listen to what they say that wasn't already canned anti-M$ and/or general fanboy crap (not directed to anyone here I read the replies here, they are fine lol...).
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@ComputerForumUser said:
@tster said:
@Vechni said:
That's not true. If you are going to compare only the shell, keep in mind that bb4win (and various bb4win mods) allows... more advanced windows users to customize their own shell.
This reply is EXACTLY the problem with the linux community.
What is?
In reply to an assertion that Linux forces users to make too many choices that they don't care about, somebody stated that "more advanced" users can also make those customizations in Windows. It may have been tongue-in-cheek, but if not, then it blatantly missed the point. I think the "problem" being referred to is that the Linux community, as a whole, still believes that every user either is or ought to be a power user, and that it's not only OK but absolutely great to foist major decisions upon an end user that he or she not only isn't interested in making, but probably isn't even capable of making.
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@Aaron said:
@ComputerForumUser said:
@tster said:
@Vechni said:
That's not true. If you are going to compare only the shell, keep in mind that bb4win (and various bb4win mods) allows... more advanced windows users to customize their own shell.
This reply is EXACTLY the problem with the linux community.
What is?
In reply to an assertion that Linux forces users to make too many choices that they don't care about, somebody stated that "more advanced" users can also make those customizations in Windows. It may have been tongue-in-cheek, but if not, then it blatantly missed the point. I think the "problem" being referred to is that the Linux community, as a whole, still believes that every user either is or ought to be a power user, and that it's not only OK but absolutely great to foist major decisions upon an end user that he or she not only isn't interested in making, but probably isn't even capable of making.
Ack, I totally misread Vichney's post in reply to what I said. I assumed he was arguing against the point I made (note: although he started with "That's not true," he wasn't actually disagreeing with my point at all) so I totally read it wrong. This is the conversation that happened:
Person 1: Windows start button
Person 2: Windows start button is better than ubuntu's menu bars
Person 3: I think the thing that sucks about ubuntu is that even if 2 people both have ubuntu their window managers can look totally different and have totally different menus because linux forces people to make choices even if they don't understand or care about the options.
Person 4: Windows can have a different shell if you install this really awesome program.This is the conversation I though happened:
Person 1: Windows start button
Person 2: Windows start button is better than ubuntu's menu bars
Person 3: I think the thing that sucks about ubuntu is that even if 2 people both have ubuntu their window managers can look totally different and have totally different menus because linux forces people to make choices even if they don't understand or care about the options.
Person 4: Ubuntu doesn't suck because you can use whatever shell you want, there are tons of choicesSorry for the confusion, I read the post to quickly and completely misunderstood it. I still stand by my point though that the problem with linux is that it forces you to make to many choices.
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@tster said:
I still stand by my point though that the problem with linux is that it forces you to make to many choices.
One can only concur with this, given that it was widely considered a bad move on the part of MS to distribute Vista in 5 fairly arbitrary flavours.
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You know, I think what's most telling is that several arguments for the ease of Linux have been along the lines of 'Hard?! Hah it IS easy! If you have some basic knowledge/time/know how to search X manuals/search X forums on google/etc'.
Then the bb4win thing. The key comment was that it basically creates shells similar to what you find with Ubuntu normally, and the comment was that if your an advanced windows user you can figure it out no problem.
Thats really the key here. The average user is your mother, your grandmother, your friend in accounting. They dont know what a forum is aside from checking their church group, or looking up sports stats. (If they can do that they can search for answers! Technically true, but allot of people don't just make that cognitive leap). The problem is that these people need a fairly linear starting line. Something like windows provides that. As a couple others have mentioned Linux is allot about choice, options, gizmos, bells and whistles. If windows can do it, we can do it and better! with more options! Well thats great, but the average person is going to look at you like youve got some kind of monster growing out of your head. They want it to work, not to have to sift through manuals (even built in easy ones) to figure out how to configure a net connection, or try and extrapolate what different shell environments or desktop areas are, or why they have so many different menus.
I love what you can do with Linux, but its major failing is that it has too many options to start with for an average person to not feel overwhelmed and get agitated and give up. People need to be eased into change like that, and they most certainly will not know to just go to google and start forum serfing. If they have to pay for phone support, they wont. They wont get answers, they will be told either A Linux sucks, use windows or B Linux is awesome, it works with everything, DUH! Neither is helpful. Usually in my Linux forum parusing and help seeking I find more negative RTFM responses than helpful. This is sad, but my own personal experience. If Joe schmoe gets Ubuntu, doesnt know about forums, has no friends that know even a modicum of how to use Linux, what the terms are (Wine? WTF is that?! OpenOffice?! Its not word!! people dont understand this, and just putting it there doesnt help someone who doesnt know to start), etc. well they are going to just hate Linux.
Thats the way it is. So yes, linux COULD be a great contender, but it needs to really make a solid easy consolidated base that anyone can slip into like a pair of pants and just run with, and THEN learn the ins and outs, find the options and play. Thats what needs to happen, along with major effort into customer education and support.
my .02 cents
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@bstorer said:
No, it's like driving a car but not knowing any details of the engine in it. What we should be striving for is something akin to: "Is it a V6 or a V8?" "I dunno, I just put gas in it and it goes."
I think the problem is that, to drive a car, you have to have lessons, pass a test etc. When it breaks down, you either take it to a garage, or try to learn how to fix it before stripping down the engine. You don't just jump in there (at least not without expecting ridicule when you've just created $X,000 worth of junk metal)
OTOH, anyone can buy a computer (because that's how they're marketed). They're also sold as being easy to use, manage etc, when they're actually vastly more complicated than cars were 20 years ago.
If there was a properly defined test that people had to pass before they could get a 'computing licence', and courses to teach how to pass it, and people were happy taking their PC in for an 'annual service' and so on, then there would be a lot fewer people disgruntled with computers. There would also probably be fewer viruses, spambots etc as well.
The Dell rep was a moron, the woman was a bit stupid for not realising she was out of her depth, and the college course was badly designed since they didn't at least give a 'checklist' of what type of computer was needed, so the woman could say to Dell, "I need a computer with Windows XP or later, which can run Word 2003, and Internet Explorer 7", and go from there.
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@Brother Laz said:
Of course dropping out of college because of this is stupid (if typically American),
Ascribing random stupidity to being American is typically European.
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@operagost said:
@Brother Laz said:
Of course dropping out of college because of this is stupid (if typically American),
Ascribing random stupidity to being American is typically 'Rest of the World'ism.
FTFY
Typically American that you need to expand your world view
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American, as in from the American continents, or from the United States of America? If were going to all nip eachother...
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@syn2083 said:
American, as in from the American continents, or from the United States of America? If were going to all nip eachother...
Well I was using American in the sense that most people from the USA consider themselves to be American without considering that that are several more countries on the same continent and a whole other continent where the populace can also call themselves American. Thus by doing so I am also playing up to the "typically American" lack of worldliness.
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I know, I was just trying to make a point by pointing it out ;)
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@OzPeter said:
@syn2083 said:
Well I was using American in the sense that most people from the USA consider themselves to be American without considering that that are several more countries on the same continent and a whole other continent where the populace can also call themselves American. Thus by doing so I am also playing up to the "typically American" lack of worldliness.American, as in from the American continents, or from the United States of America? If were going to all nip eachother...
The problem here is that you forget that words can have mutliple meanings. Consider:
Someone from Spain is a Spaniard and a European.
Someone from France is a Frenchman and a European.
Someone from Canada is a Canadian and an American.
Someone from the United States of America is an American and an American.
Just because we happen to use the word "American" to denote someone who associates themselves with our country doesn't mean that we don't think about other countries on the same continent (and the other continent).
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Maybe we should rename ourselves, and go by something like... oh, "Statanists", or something. ;)
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@CDarklock said:
Maybe we should rename ourselves, and go by something like... oh, "Statanists", or something. ;)
USians.
pronounced: uh-see-uhns.
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@tster said:
@OzPeter said:
@syn2083 said:
Well I was using American in the sense that most people from the USA consider themselves to be American without considering that that are several more countries on the same continent and a whole other continent where the populace can also call themselves American. Thus by doing so I am also playing up to the "typically American" lack of worldliness.American, as in from the American continents, or from the United States of America? If were going to all nip eachother...
The problem here is that you forget that words can have mutliple meanings. Consider:
Someone from Spain is a Spaniard and a European.
Someone from France is a Frenchman and a European.
Someone from Canada is a Canadian and an American.
Someone from the United States of America is an American and an American.
Just because we happen to use the word "American" to denote someone who associates themselves with our country doesn't mean that we don't think about other countries on the same continent (and the other continent).
This argument always makes me want to stab people in the cock. The fact is, everybody knows that Americans call themselves Americans. It's the common usage of the word. Sure, everyone in North and South America can call themselves American, but it's just silly. When people say "Asians", the meaning generally doesn't include Indians, Middle Easterners or Russians. Really, the terms have more cultural significance than purely geographical. The USA is the only country in the world with "America" in its name and it's quite clear that the USA is culturally distinct from the rest of the North and South American countries. This kind of anal hair-splitting is just silly and seems like yet another weak attempt to criticize Americans for something that exists in various forms all over the world.
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@morbiuswilters said:
makes me want to stab people in the cock.
@morbiuswilters said:
anal hair-splitting
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@morbiuswilters said:
it's quite clear that the USA is culturally distinct from the rest of the North and South American countries.
One could argue that most of Canada is a similar culture.
As a follow up, have heard many people refer to themselves as "South American" which is fine since it is un-ambiguous. I have never heard a Canadian or Mexican say "I'm an American." Mostly because in Canada and Mexico "American" means from the US. If Eurotards want to whine about Canadians and Mexicans being looked over perhaps they should try and convince Mexicans and Canadians to start referring to themselves as "Americans."
PS.
Dear Canada and Mexico,
Don't start calling yourselves "Americans" or we will get pissed off and invade your country.
Sincerely,
-America
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@tster said:
One could argue that most of Canada is a similar culture.
It's fairly similar, but the US's position as the only hyperpower definitely sets it aside as a unique entity. Therefore, saying something like "Americans favor X" unambiguously refers to the USA and gives a considerable amount of context, given the USA's position of economic, diplomatic and military power.
@tster said:
PS.
Dear Canada and Mexico,
Don't start calling yourselves "Americans" or we will get pissed off and invade your country.
Sincerely,
-America
They have oil, right? I'm in.
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