Non-WTF Jobs




  • Just randomly scanning some of the jobs offered here (Nothing I'd be any good at, btw). One of them instructed:

    "Please provide Compensation history"

    My advice to you is: don't. This is the quickest way to talk yourself into a lower salary. Your previous comp is none of their business, and not relevant to your aptitude for the job being offered. As a general rule, don't ever discuss money with interviewers at all, until you have had several interviews and are obviously going to get an offer. If they ask you in interview #1, ignore/avoid/fudge it - it's too early to be discussing. When you do get round to talking about comp (i.e. when they really really want you to join, and you've got them by the curlies), even then DON'T tell them your expectations: Make them suggest a number - if it's too low, you can only go up. If you say a number, it can only go down.



  •  I disagree.  Putting a number into the conversation early can save you a lot of time when they've got a much lower figure in mind.



  •  I completely dissagree, if you are looking for 80k and they are looking to pay 60-70k then why should they waste their time with you?  If you are one of 3 candidates that they are looking for and they sit and wait, then send you an offer in the mail (1 -2 weeks) then you take a week to decide, then finally decline.  Well, now they have to try and find one of the other two guys a month later and try to offer them the job and hope they haven't found another one by then.  Otherwise they have to start all over.

     

    I can completely understand why they would want to know, at least ballpark figures, what you are expecting to make so that they don't waste your time or theirs.



  • @vr602 said:

    One of them instructed:

    "Please provide Compensation history"

    My advice to you is: don't.

    So true.  The amount I'm making now is none of your fucking business.  Similarly, I've had companies ask what other companies I've interviewed with.  Also, none of your fucking business.

    @vr602 said:

    Make them suggest a number - if it's too low, you can only go up. If you say a number, it can only go down.
    I agree with this as well. They are offering a job to you.  You are not offering services to them.

    I specified a range when I was interviewing for my current job (before I knew any of this crap) and surprisingly, they offered me a job right in the middle of my range.  Thinking back on it, I don't know why they didn't offer at the bottom of my range.  Oh well.  Now I know for my next interview.



  • @amischiefr said:

    if you are looking for 80k and they are looking to pay 60-70k then why should they waste their time with you?
    I agreed with this until I thought about how this usually gets started:  responding to a job posting in the paper/internet/whatever.  Those postings usually have pay ranges, and if the range isn't where you want to be, why did you respond to the posting in the first place?

    If it doesn't have a salary range in the posting, I wouldn't even waste my time, because chances are I'd get to the end of the process and they'd offer me $10 an hour to create an OS or something ridiculous like that.



  • @belgariontheking said:

    Those postings usually have pay ranges, and if the range isn't where you want to be, why did you respond to the posting in the first place?

    If it doesn't have a salary range in the posting, I wouldn't even waste my time,

     

    Fair enough, but not all good jobs post a salary range.  The job I am at now said "competative".  They are paying me well above what I should be making, so I am happy.  They asked what I was making at my other job and I told them that I wanted the same or more.  This worked to my bennefit as now I make 10k more a year at a better job.  

     

    On a similar note, I got called for a job interview (around the same time) and when I asked what they were expecting they said: 55k/year.  When I told them that I currently made more and would not take  a pay cut they called back the next day saying that they could go higher and wanted me to come in.  I got offered that job as well as my current, current was a bit more attractive.  The point is that their posting was 55, they were willing to go up from the posting once knowing my requirements.  They never would have known if they didn't ask...

     

    Just my opinion though, I don't know why people are so worried about anybody knowing how much they make.  Its not top secret data, just a salary.



  • @belgariontheking said:

    @amischiefr said:

    if you are looking for 80k and they are looking to pay 60-70k then why should they waste their time with you?
    I agreed with this until I thought about how this usually gets started:  responding to a job posting in the paper/internet/whatever.  Those postings usually have pay ranges, and if the range isn't where you want to be, why did you respond to the posting in the first place?

    If it doesn't have a salary range in the posting, I wouldn't even waste my time, because chances are I'd get to the end of the process and they'd offer me $10 an hour to create an OS or something ridiculous like that.

    True. When I was about to graduate from college, I was doing $300/month on a part-time job, and I raked another $600 for a side project that took 3 months to deliver (final semester, tons of final projects, too little time left to do that project.) My part-time employer had promised me to take me in after graduating as a full-time employee, which sounded nice in theory; in reality, by my final 3 months I had realized this job would be a boatload of WTF's.

    Now the final straw was when I found out what my "full-time" paycheck was going to be: $450/month. Damn, even the tech-support call center guys were doing twice that pay! My "side project" client was offering at least $1200/month. While I finally didn't go for any of these, I did take note to actually check salary ranges before applying, at least you know what you're in for.

    My last two jobs have been given salary ranges in the posting, and in both cases I've been given a salary in the upper-half range. However, I'm wary of some ranges: beware jobs that post $600-$2000/month ranges. Such a large range means there's a pretty good chance they're going to offer on the low-side range.



  • @vr602 said:

    My advice to you is: don't.

    I generally agree with that advice. The later in the conversation the money is brought up (be it job, sales, etc), the better - sell first, negotiate later. As the guy selling (candidate, salesperson, etc), it's OK if you can't negotiate the price you want. Move on, and try another prospect.

    Of course, as an employer (and buyer), my perspective is a bit different. I want to know the price ASAP and do whatever I can to find that out. Of course, I respect the deferal, and it really doesn't impact the hiring/buying descision... but still, I want to know the cost upfront.



  • While I agree, what I normally do (since 99% of companies demand that you answer "What are you looking to make?" or they won't speak to you further) is I suggest my low range as what I'm actually looking for, that way when/if they lowball me, in reality they're paying me more than I'm currently making.

    I think it's something that you should get over with quickly, because as someone else said you don't want to waste your time interviewing with a company that is never going to be able to pay you what you want.  I'd rather know right away that they're only going to pay, say, $40K when I'm looking for $60K, than spend time talking to them and then find out at the last minute they can't afford me.



  • No-one's going to demand to know what you are making/looking for. And if they do, like I said, you avoid it. They ask how much you want, you ask how much they are offering. They ask how much you are currently making; you (avoid telling them to feck off but) ask them how much the position is worth.

    Here's a real-world example, from when I interviewed for my last contract. I was making 350, would have been happy with 375, hoping for 400. Went for the interview, did well. Went for 2nd interview with other guy, did well. Had phone interview with guy from the States, did well. Went back for final interview with first guy, who by now knows me quite well, likes me, wants me to work fo him.- he asked how much I wanted. I fudged the issue, and asked what they would offer. They knew the game, so asked what I wanted again. I know the game so said I wasn't sure what their budget might be in this market etc etc. 

    Eventually, after we'd ping-ponged for 10 mins, I suggested he go to his HR people, budget people, whatever, and phone me with a number; I promised that, if it was ok, I'd just say yes
    and not haggle, but if it was too low, we'd have to reconsider. He agreed. Next day, phone call, offer of 450.

    Go figure.



  • @belgariontheking said:

    @vr602 said:

    One of them instructed:

    "Please provide Compensation history"

    My advice to you is: don't.

    So true.  The amount I'm making now is none of your fucking business. 
    Techincally it is there business.  Thery are in the business of making you want to work for them.  Knowing your current pay will aid them in their endevors.

    @belgariontheking said:

    @vr602 said:
    Make them suggest a number - if it's too low, you can only go up. If you say a number, it can only go down.
    I agree with this as well. They are offering a job to you.  You are not offering services to them.
    Except you are offering your services to them for40-50 hours/week.

    @belgariontheking said:

    I specified a range when I was interviewing for my current job (before I knew any of this crap) and surprisingly, they offered me a job right in the middle of my range.  Thinking back on it, I don't know why they didn't offer at the bottom of my range.  Oh well.  Now I know for my next interview.

    Because employers know that prospective employees are more likely to turn down a low-ball offer than what they consider a good offer.  If I told someone I was looking to make $70,000-$80,000 and they came back with an offer for $70,000 I'd probably turn it down and go with the other company that I interviewed at that offered me $76,000.



  • @vr602 said:

    ...

    Go figure.

     

    they could have also come back with an offer of 300 and then you would have had a long way to haggle them up.  BTW, what unit are you using here?  $/hour, Euro/hour, Pound/hour, thousand dollars/year, pounds/week, pounds/month.  I'm really at a loss here.



  • I intentionally left the currency and time units out, as these are not real numbers, but representative. If you like, think of them as Happiness Points out of 500, or something.



  • @tster said:

    @belgariontheking said:
    @vr602 said:
    One of them instructed:

    "Please provide Compensation history"

    My advice to you is: don't.

    So true.  The amount I'm making now is none of your fucking business. 
    Techincally it is there business.  Thery are in the business of making you want to work for them.  Knowing your current pay will aid them in their endevors.
    No, no it's not.  They have no right to know that.  My current and many previous employers will not tell them, so why should I? 

    Of course it would help them, but it doesn't help me and I have no obligation or incentive to give it to them.  None of their fucking business. Unless you lie and add $20G to your salary.

    @tster said:

    @belgariontheking said:
    @vr602 said:
    Make them suggest a number - if it's too low, you can only go up. If you say a number, it can only go down.
    I agree with this as well. They are offering a job to you.  You are not offering services to them.
    Except you are offering your services to them for40-50 hours/week.
    In economic terms, you are the product they are purchasing, not the other way around.  If you think of it the other way around, you've already lost.


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