Pay peanuts or chicken feed
-
There are already a few ranting posts about current salaries for software people. Let me start a new thread (with all concurrency issues etc) on that topic.
Stepstone showed me today:
"Salaries for software architects range from 59k to 79.5k Euros per year, on average 66.9 k". (in
)
Uhm, their idea looks a little little to me, as according to the FAZ newspaper, that's rather the income of a "programmer" in Frankfurt area.
-
@BernieTheBernie What's the cost of living in Frankfurt area?
Because generally my answer to that question is programmers should get chicken shit.
First of all, when is anyone ever happy about the sums they get. Try actually working for a change, you lazy sacks of protoplasm.
Second, at some point work needs to account for the worth of it, and by damn, much of the work of programmers these days is worth fuck all. Perhaps companies are starting to realize that more bugs, shit ideas and shit designs to be done again and again - and now ChatGPT regurgitations - can be easily deflated, because they do not bring money. They have become an expense everybody spends not to rock the boat of "tecknological progress".
-
It also depends what field we’re talking programming.
Someone doing PHP or general web CRUD is going to make less than someone who does something more exotic, specialised and/or involved in a more regulated industry.
-
@Applied-Mediocrity said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
much of the work of programmers these days is worth fuck all
Sadly, that's also correct.
Just thinking of Kevin, Johnny, Jim & co.
-
@Applied-Mediocrity you pay chicken shit, you get shit devs.
Of course, the reverse may not apply. There's tons of highly paid shit devs in Silly Valley. But over here, they whine about all the "
Fachkräftemangel" since we don't have all the cheap H-1Bs, while at the same time wondering why nobody applies for shitty salaries.(
side remark: and then they compute we need roughly 50 million 
people per year to solve this problem.)
-
@topspin said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
then they compute we need
Who would be they in this particular instance? If it's the big businesses, fair enough. You've got massive pile of dolts there then. Or is it just the government, who wants to fill that particular line with "hurr hurr tecknological connected future digitization smart and mobile".
@BernieTheBernie said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
Sadly, that's also correct.
Sadly, indeed. While I've no particular hate for you or any of all you fuckers here (so it sucks for you if you don't get to keep the standard of living you're used to), I do have a gargantuan axe to grind against the industry as a whole, in that it's been probably the most expensive next to actual rocket science and has not delivered a tenth of that, even if we account for scientific curiosity. It's hard to even comprehend all the money literally wasted on shit nobody asked for, and even when they did, not what they got, but certainly horrible maintenance and training costs.
Industry sustains itself solely by having multi-generational endemically lax attitude about usefulness, correctness and fitness for purpose.
Someone needs to say it that the industry must be tempered. With copious amounts of LN2 directly on its appendages.
-
@Applied-Mediocrity said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
@topspin said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
then they compute we need
Who would be they in this particular instance? If it's the big businesses, fair enough. You've got massive pile of dolts there then. Or is it just the government, who wants to fill that particular line with "hurr hurr tecknological connected future digitization smart and mobile".
@BernieTheBernie said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
Sadly, that's also correct.
Sadly, indeed. While I've no particular hate for you or any of all you fuckers here (so it sucks for you if you don't get to keep the standard of living you're used to), I do have a gargantuan axe to grind against the industry as a whole, in that it's been probably the most expensive next to actual rocket science and has not delivered a tenth of that, even if we account for scientific curiosity. It's hard to even comprehend all the money literally wasted on shit nobody asked for, and even when they did, not what they got, but certainly horrible maintenance and training costs.
Industry sustains itself solely by having multi-generational endemically lax attitude about usefulness, correctness and fitness for purpose.
Someone needs to say it that the industry must be tempered. With copious amounts of LN2 directly on its appendages.
You're preaching to the quire. On the other hand, businesses kind of brought this on themselves when they tried to make it blue collar work where everyone is considered equally valuable. I keep compelling about how 9/10 of programmers could be removed, and we'd probably see an increase in value being produced.
-
@Applied-Mediocrity said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
@topspin said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
then they compute we need
Who would be they in this particular instance? If it's the big businesses, fair enough. You've got massive pile of dolts there then. Or is it just the government, who wants to fill that particular line with "hurr hurr tecknological connected future digitization smart and mobile".
The "Council of Economic Experts". As mentioned, it was a slippery sideline so I'll not discuss this particular idiocy further.
@BernieTheBernie said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
Sadly, that's also correct.
Sadly, indeed. While I've no particular hate for you or any of all you fuckers here (so it sucks for you if you don't get to keep the standard of living you're used to), I do have a gargantuan axe to grind against the industry as a whole, in that it's been probably the most expensive next to actual rocket science and has not delivered a tenth of that, even if we account for scientific curiosity. It's hard to even comprehend all the money literally wasted on shit nobody asked for, and even when they did, not what they got, but certainly horrible maintenance and training costs.
Industry sustains itself solely by having multi-generational endemically lax attitude about usefulness, correctness and fitness for purpose.
Someone needs to say it that the industry must be tempered. With copious amounts of LN2 directly on its appendages.
The solution for that is of course Rust, but y'all don't want to hear it.
No, really, the industry has decided that the cost for buggy crap and the occassional disaster is lower than doing things right. Be the first to push your shit to market. Since this has creeped into things like the automotive industry, which traditionally comes from a point of much more expensive but rigorous engineering, the money speaks for itself.
-
@topspin said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
the cost for buggy crap and the occassional disaster is lower than doing things right
and after an occasional failure, some one in the company is tasked with cleaning the
up. And then he has (presumably) some experience on how to do that, consequently there is absofuckinglutely no need to prevent that failure in the future, no, total in contrary: we can afford now to do it soon again.
-
@topspin said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
@Applied-Mediocrity said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
Industry sustains itself solely by having multi-generational endemically lax attitude about usefulness, correctness and fitness for purpose.
The solution for that is of course Rust, but y'all don't want to hear it.
My own view on that is that the core problem of the IT industry is the "as is" license. No other line of business can sell stuff while saying "if you can't even do the thing we are telling you the stuff does, well, that's on you."
Jokes on Tesla aside, if you buy a car and it catches fire when you turn right, the carmaker can't get away with "oh well, please don't do that." Have you ever seen the equivalent of a manufacturer's recall in IT? (and no, patches and "security updates" don't count as they're indistinguishable, for the user, from "feature updates")
Get the IT world to pay for each and every fuckup, and suddenly they'll get their shit together. Of course this also means everything will be order of magnitudes more expensive, but "cheap, useful, good quality, pick (at most) 2 out of 3."
-
@remi said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
Jokes on Tesla aside, if you buy a car and it catches fire when you turn right, the carmaker can't get away with "oh well, please don't do that." Have you ever seen the equivalent of a manufacturer's recall in IT? (and no, patches and "security updates" don't count as they're indistinguishable, for the user, from "feature updates")
This happened to a friend of mine. Occasionally if she turned the steering wheel too far to the right something would trip and all the electronics would reboot. She would be left trying to steer two tonnes with no power steering.
She returned the car and managed to get a full refund.
-
@Applied-Mediocrity I like the cut of your jib and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
-
@DogsB That'd be 8 Skittles
-
@remi “Reliability, speed, productivity. Pick 4.”
-
@Carnage said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
You're preaching to the quire.
Choir*. As in, the group of people who respond to the preacher with a sung "AAAMEN!"
-
@TwelveBaud said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
quire
To be fair, quire is an archaic (and very uncommon) spelling of choir — and one which makes more sense phonetically.
-
@HardwareGeek said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
@TwelveBaud said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
quire
To be fair, quire is an archaic (and very uncommon) spelling of choir — and one which makes more sense phonetically.
But we don't need reams of such spellings in use.
-
-
@topspin said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
@remi “Reliability, speed, productivity. Pick 4.”
I'm reading that as
being neither cheap nor useful, and doing a lot of off-by-one errors. 
-
@remi said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
@topspin said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
@remi “Reliability, speed, productivity. Pick 4.”
I'm reading that as
being neither cheap nor useful, and doing a lot of off-by-one errors. So, modern development in a nutshell.
Modern development is such a clusterfuck it hurts to watch, as someone who cares about doing a good job. I think things like Electron should burn in a hellfire but I know if it did someone would only invent the next way of smashing JavaScript into a near-browser to make writing desktop apps “easy”.
-
Much of programming work nowadays is about useless shit anyway.
We often saw those comic strips here where someone has to solve complicated things during job interview, and then their real world task is "MAKE THAT BUTTON BIGGER!!!".Actually, "bigger" is not a thing. It is "animations".
Add an animation when the mouse enters the button.
A different animation when the mouse is hovering over the button.
Another one for leaving.
And one for left button down.
And one for keeping the button down.
Another one for lkeeping the button down,but also moving the mouse.
For button up.
For ...
And then for many odd gestures on touch screens. A new fancy animation for each of them.Because animations are "attractors".
I prefer to call them "distractors".
They distract from the content. Or rather from the fact that content is actually missing.
-
Next comes the "internet everything" cräpp.
Internet connected fridges, internet connected washing machines and tumble driers, internet connected toilets, internet connected door locks, ...
And a native iPhone äpp for each of them. Plus an Android äpp. And for Chrome browser users a reactive single page äpplication (SPA). Do not dare to open that with Firefox or even Edge, or a non-current version of Chrome!
Because that's so fancy, and offers exactly 0 value of use. Nothing, nada, nichts, niente.Wait, did I say 0?
That's wrong.
It is negative.Because when your device cannot connect to the internetz, it does not work.
E.g. when a software certificate is outdated and cannot be updated.
Or when Iranian hackers use it in a DDoS attack.
Or when North Korea is in dire need of fresh shitcoins.Yes, most of the time of developers is wasted for such worthless
.
-
@BernieTheBernie said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
Internet connected fridges, internet connected washing machines and tumble driers, internet connected toilets, internet connected door locks, ...
Last time I changed jobs, I also interviewed for a company making kitchen appliances. I ended up declining that offer, saying that I can't get excited about network-connected ovens (they mentioned they were developing at the time).
-
@BernieTheBernie said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
Because animations are "attractors".
I prefer to call them "distractors".Smart ID (2FA of my bank) recently upgrayedd their app to have MOAR animations. Not sure why they even bother, because it's not a product you'd buy. You either use it or you don't, because the choice is that or the OTP. But designers gotta design, I suppose.
So now the animations are veeery slow and blended, like if I was drugged with chloroform or something.
-
@Arantor said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
I think things like Electron should burn in a hellfire but I know if it did someone would only invent the next way of smashing JavaScript into a near-browser to make writing desktop apps “easy”.
You may not like it, but a HTML renderer is a GUI library that is available on all platforms and behaves fairly consistently on all of them, and there is no risk it will stop being maintained in foreseeable future, which is more than can be said about most alternatives. That makes it completely appropriate for the simpler apps.
The biggest sin of Electron is lugging the rendering library along with it though there is one already available everywhere. That's why there's Tauri. Tauri is much lighter, because it just uses whatever native browser library there is.
@BernieTheBernie said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
And a native iPhone äpp for each of them. Plus an Android äpp. And for Chrome browser users a reactive single page äpplication (SPA).
I hate this. The reactive SPÄ, equipped with suitable manifest, can be “installed” (a shortcut created for it that opens it in a separate address-bar-less browser window as if it was a native app) and that's all you need and you don't have to bother with the crappy stores (but muh discöverability).
-
@Bulb said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
a shortcut created for it that opens it in a separate address-bar-less browser window as if it was a native app
Which also means no reload button.
Oh well, I can just force-close the "äpp" whenever OWA gets stuck again.
-
@topspin I mean, people can treat it as a native app if they like, without the company having to make a separate one. You can continue using it in the browser if you prefer—and get exactly the same features, because it's just one and the same app.
-
@Bulb not entirely true - browser PWAs couldn’t do push notifications on Apple until earlier this year, which was still a driving force for iOS apps.
I will also note that PWA using localStorage is still a shady limited workaround compared to actual file storage because the browser can, at any time, just decide to fuck you over and delete it.
To your earlier point about Electron, I’d be happier if it didn’t burn 400MB+ per instance of memory at a time when all the things are also doing the same thing. Slack, Discord et al soon mount up in terms of memory eating.
-
Actually, I am whining about issues known to Chinese factory workers 20 years ago, as an interesting article in The Onion from 2005 states:
Chinese Factory Worker Can't Believe The Shit He Makes For Americans
FENGHUA, CHINA—Chen Hsien, an employee of Fenghua Ningbo Plastic Works Ltd., a plastics factory that manufactures lightweight household items for Western markets, expressed his disbelief Monday over the "sheer amount of shit Americans will buy."
-
@Applied-Mediocrity said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
So now the animations are veeery slow and blended, like if I was drugged with chloroform or something.
Sounds about right for the banking industry.
-
-
@Applied-Mediocrity yeah, yeah, the joke is the applicant. And the boss thinks "sure, for you and your 3 brothers."
https://www.reddit.com/r/arbeitsleben/comments/14rcdm3/gibt_es_ernsthaft_leute_in_it_die_für_27000/
Salary
€27,000 - €42,000 per yearEmployment type
full timeTasks
• You develop and implement modern web applications based on JavaScript, CSS and PHP
• You enjoy working in the online shop and CMS environment, for example with Oxid or Contao
• You create new projects in a modern and forward-looking infrastructure
• By automating processes, you create space for new tasksQualifications
• You have experience and are interested in current backend and frontend technologies, ideally with several modern programming, scripting and markup languages
• You have experience in the backend with PHP or with established frameworks and in the frontend with JavaScript, AJAX, HTML, possibly REACT
• You are familiar with various database systems, eg MySQL
• You enjoy the implementation of exciting projects, paired with independent work, creativity and high quality awareness
• Good knowledge of German or English pleases our customersFor €27,000, they didn't mention "full stack", only frontend and backend.
I'd rather be looking for a job as plumber.ETA: I just realized it says "German or English". That seems to be a mistake on their part, I bet they mean "and".
-
@topspin But look at that posting! It's a web monkey whose work will not positively contribute to the world whatsoever. And nothing is exciting about the pigsty that is modern webs unless maybe you're an actual monkey.
I'd rather be looking for a job as plumber.
That's the right idea. Take up proper trade. Farm bees, build housing, wade through actual shit instead of invented ones. Won't be anymore sitting in lobster position and farting in a comfy chair from 9 to 5, and the pay is the same or worse, but it will probably be far less mentally draining and damaging, and it will have you do something useful.
I hate computers.
-
@Applied-Mediocrity said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
I hate computers.
You and everybody on here.
-
-
@topspin said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
@Applied-Mediocrity said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
I hate computers.
You and everybody on here.
Secretly they hate themselves.
-
-
The field as a whole needs to realize that a dev != a dev and IT != IT. Somebody writing code for control systems in ${actual_industry} isn't the same as a webdev. Somebody coloring in buttons also isn't the same as a back-end / "full stack" dev or whatever. (Add more examples as appropriate.)
Saying that there's a lack of a ${generic_dev} isn't very helpful. Education isn't (often) helping, with the ${generic_CS_degree} attitude.
-
@cvi said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
Saying that there's a lack of a ${generic_dev} isn't very helpful. Education isn't (often) helping, with the ${generic_CS_degree} attitude.
What do you expect when you have ${generic_MBA_holder} in charge?
-
-
@remi said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
Have you ever seen the equivalent of a manufacturer's recall in IT? (and no, patches and "security updates" don't count as they're indistinguishable, for the user, from "feature updates")
And how is that any different from a car recall?
A few years ago, I took my car into the dealership for some routine maintenance, and they mentioned there was a recall on this model for an obscure defect that, in the event I was in a specific type of crash, might make the door difficult to open for me to get out of the vehicle. So they fixed it. And now I don't notice anything at all is different, but they tell me it's a little bit safer now. From my end-user point of view, it's exactly like a security update.
-
@BernieTheBernie said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
Because animations are "attractors".
I prefer to call them "distractors".
They distract from the content. Or rather from the fact that content is actually missing.Don't be ridiculous. They are the content!
-
@topspin said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
I'd rather be looking for a job as plumber.
Might not be such a bad idea. I heard a couple plumbers made over a billion dollars recently.
-
@Mason_Wheeler said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
@remi said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
"security updates" don't count as they're indistinguishable, for the user, from "feature updates")
From my end-user point of view, it's exactly like a security update.
I bolded the relevant part for you. A recall is indeed a security update, but the thing is that IT companies don't do just security update. A typical Windows update will contain various security update, but also whatever random "feature" updates they've decided to throw at it. "Your files are exactly where you left them" wouldn't be needed if it was just a security update. Your car manufacturer didn't hand you your car back saying "your windshield wipers are exactly where you left them" because they never do anything that will move them and even if they do they will put them back exactly like they were because they know they are doing a security update and nothing more.
For Joe Random End-User, an IT update is "an update" and they can't tell if it's security or feature. The best they can do is cross their fingers and hope their files will be where they left them. And if they aren't... well, tough luck because the "as-is" license means the software company can just walk away. For Joe Random Driver, a manufacturer recall is strictly a security update and they know the car will be like it was before. If the garage hands them back a car with doors painted a different colour or the spare wheel missing it's an obvious error of the garage.
Now you're going to mention a couple of IT companies that do security and only security updates, and sure, some do. But this is far from being the rule, and the discourse pushed by the whole industry is "update your device regularly for your security but this will also included non-security updates and tough luck if you don't like those."
Companies have to go through various hoops to get LTS or similar versions i.e. software that only ever get security update, and nothing more, and even for those the idea of "long term" is laughably short compared to other industries.
-
@remi Oh, you mean like the time I took my car in for regular maintenance and when I got it back they'd added a new feature to the backup camera that drew little boxes on the screen to visually represent exactly what range would set off the proximity sensors?
-
@Mason_Wheeler that sounds eerily like a... software update.
Thank you for proving my point.
(and also showing how the car industry is adopting the worst aspects of the IT industry, but that's sadly not really news)
-
Remi: Software updates are totally different from car updates.
Mason: Here's car updates doing exactly the same thing.
Remi: Thank you for proving my point by showing the exact opposite of what I claimed in my point.
-
@remi said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
For Joe Random Driver, a manufacturer recall is strictly a security update and they know the car will be like it was before.
Your car has exactly as much horsepower as when you turned it in.
-
@Mason_Wheeler assuming you actually think you have a point, let me amend my initial statement (as reformulated by you):
Remi: Software updates are totally different from car updates that are not software updates.
I will grant you that the initial formulation did not explicitly exclude "car-software updates" from the "car updates" category. Here, have your
.I thought it was obvious enough that when I was comparing A and B I was excluding the cases where B is actually doing A and talking instead of all the other cases of B, but I guess I forgot where I was.
-
@Arantor said in Pay peanuts or chicken feed:
it hurts to watch, as someone who cares about doing a good job.
Free yourself of such burdens. Embrace the 
.
