Pinned WTF Bites
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There's a reason why this idiocy happened, though. It's not a good reason (in that solution was worse than the problem), but it's there. Tell me, is there a friendly way to actually achieve the result this installer wanted to do - pinning something to the taskbar? Say, something like
BOOL PinThisShitToTheTaskbar(LPWSTR name, LPWSTR path), which is all one would need in the most simple case?
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in WTF Bites:
Tell me, is there a friendly way to actually achieve the result this installer wanted to do - pinning something to the taskbar?
No, and for a good reason.
I bet somebody got a really nice bonus for that feature - The Old New Thing
I often find myself saying, “I bet somebody got a really nice bonus for that feature.” “That feature” is something aggressively user-hostile, like forcing a shortcut into the Quick Launch bar or the Favorites menu, like automatically turning on a taskbar toolbar,
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@Gustav And that worked so well in this particular and other cases, didn't it? First of all, wrong. There is an interface one Binging away. It's just overengineered disproportionally to the offhand throw-away nature of the task.
This is one of those times where I disagree with Raymond Chen. Hey, by the way, Microsoft does this shit themselves all the time (pinning crap to the taskbar, again and again, just like they did with Quick Launch). Of course, Raymond Chen would at this point excuse that Microsoft is so mindbogglingly big that their left tentacle doesn't know what other bajillion tentacles do at any given time.
There are only two ways about having features: either you have them and as a consequence let people abuse said features. Or you don't have the features in the first place. Because people will find a way to abuse them if they're there and the result will be invariably worse off.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in WTF Bites:
@Gustav And that worked so well in this particular and other cases, didn't it? First of all, wrong. There is an interface one Binging away. It's just overengineered disproportionally to the offhand throw-away nature of the task.
And it makes a big difference. It creates extra friction, which reduces the number of developers willing to go forward with it. Especially if you have to continuously come up with new methods (as mentioned in the previously linked article, that method doesn't work anymore because the internal function was changed to a no-op). The result is that very few apps are willing to mess with pinning (I think I've only seen one in the last 15 years). As opposed to Quick Launch, which is so low-friction that everybody and their dog throws their icons in there - making it virtually useless.
There are only two ways about having features: either you have them and as a consequence let people abuse said features.
But which people specifically are we talking about? Because it's not the users who are being abusive. In fact, users are the victims of abuse here.
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@Applied-Mediocrity as the article says, no there’s not. This is not an omission but fully intentional.
Which was all fine for Windows 7 or so, but then they changed the dialog where the user is supposed to set those things themselves to make it super confusing again and you have to change the billion associations a browser is supposed to open individually.
Basically, because of Microsoft infighting, there’s always parts that try to prevent applications from fucking over the user, and other parts that don’t want to follow the rules either. Can’t have people not using Edge.
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Everyone finds their own preferred conclusions in the data. I'd argue that the difference in adoption is because the innovative "superbar" pinning introduced with Windows 7 got yeeted away in the next release and then got zombified again.
It creates extra friction, which reduces the number of developers willing to go forward with it
What a great way to design things - put "extra friction" that prevents using features. Jesus Harold Faltermeyer Christ
Say, you aren't actually a developer or anything, but a government stooge, aren't you? If not, you're a natural for that kind of job.users are the victims
Developers (x3, ad nauseam) are users of Microsoft's programming interfaces and designs. All users collectively are victims of Microsoft's infighting and haphazard innovations.
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This is not an omission but fully intentional.
*Falls and dies*
"I totally intended to do that!"Filed under: Leap of logic
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in WTF Bites:
It creates extra friction, which reduces the number of developers willing to go forward with it
What a great way to design things - put "extra friction" that prevents using features. Jesus Harold Faltermeyer Christ
I don't think you understand. We're talking about MALICIOUS PROGRAMS PUTTING PORN SITE SHORTCUTS ALL OVER THE TASKBAR ON EVERY REBOOT. Preventing that from happening is very good! But we still want the user themself to be able to pin the programs, because it's a good and useful feature.
users are the victims
Developers (x3, ad nauseam) are users of Microsoft's programming interfaces and designs.
For fuck's sake you fucking pedantic dickweed. I'm very sorry, I accidentally a word. I meant to say the end users are the victims of the developers being evil predators with no concept of personal space or consent. If the end user wanted your program pinned to their taskbar, they'd fucking pin it.
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I don't think you understand.
I make extra effort not to. In fact I Google translate your posts into Polish beforehand.
We're talking about MALICIOUS PROGRAMS PUTTING PORN SITE SHORTCUTS ALL OVER THE TASKBAR ON EVERY REBOOT.
Don't put
MALICIOUS PROGRAMS PUTTING PORN SITE SHORTCUTS ALL OVER THE TASKBAR ON EVERY REBOOT
there in the first place, stupid! At that point the system is compromised. Securing it should be the first and perhaps the only priority.
you fucking pedantic dickweed
If the end user wanted your program pinned to their taskbar, they'd fucking pin it.
Let's play a game. Take a sample 10 accountants or such and count how many of them even know such a thing as pinning programs to their taskbar exists and how to do it and how many times they've used it.
Ordinary users want and expect things to technomagically happen.
Power-users want to retain control over their environment.
We can't have both.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in WTF Bites:
there in the first place, stupid! At that point the system is compromised. Securing it should be the first and perhaps the only priority.
There's always a "Don't remove the browser toolbar I use it all the time" guy.
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@Applied-Mediocrity the only solution to that is to not install windows. Because every other update acts like malware, ranging from “hey, I see you’re using Firefox/Chrome, do you know that Edge is 6000% better?” to resetting all your stuff and adding new secret privacy invasions.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in WTF Bites:
Power-users want to retain control over their environment.
Let's go for this one though.
To be fair, I could see something like a standardized API that asks the user (XYZ wants to pin itself to the taskbar / add an autostart entry / ... -- allow or deny?) would be useful. Let the user (+- systemwide policies) pick a default option. (But, either way, don't let the original application know whether it succeeded...)
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@cvi randomwebsite.com wants to access your location
randomwebsite.com wants to show desktop alerts
randomwebsite.com wants ...
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@Applied-Mediocrity the only solution to that is to not install windows. Because every other update acts like malware, ranging from “hey, I see you’re using Firefox/Chrome, do you know that Edge is 6000% better?” to resetting all your stuff and adding new secret privacy invasions.
Oh, please, Linux has plenty of "We know better than you!"-stuff as well.
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@PleegWat (a) Close randomwesite.com or (b) [X] Do not let randomwebsite.com create additional dialogs.
Edit: Android kinda manages this with apps without being obnoxious. Additionally, for random webpages, the default policy should be "FUCK NO" anyway. For the handful of websites that do need something extra (Teams et al.), I'm happy to jump through a few manual hoops.
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Let's go for this one though.
Let's not.
Recount how many times you've seen a neatly organized workspace (outside of a centrally-managed work environment and occasional pedantic dickweed who call themselves a power user). Recount all the times you've seen New Folder (2), Copy of Shortcut to Netflix and the entire worth of Word documents ever written by said person right on the Desktop.
Ordinary users can't be bothered to care about all that stupid nerd shit. Computers are not central to their lives. Many other things require their time. They are not any different from any other household stuff to them. They want things to Just WorkTM. And if you put in features, this means taking a lot of defaults that will annoy certain people. This includes pinning assorted shit to the taskbar, if I have to explicitly point it out.
Or creating a shortcut on the Desktop, because pinning things is ergonomics-wise a shit idea that I'm only happy it didn't take off.
Where is that goddamn stupid program I just installed? I don't see it on the Desktop. I can't find it! I hate computers.Things can be designed for both users and power-users (
permitting, which is why it's rare), but at all times something's got to give. You can put a checkbox, but some people will be annoyed by the defaults. You can require people to choose and some people will be annoyed by the requirement.What you absolutely must not do is half-ass the process by putting in some stupid manufactured "extra friction".
Filed under: Calm down, Blakeycat
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@Rhywden doesn’t really affect users, and you can pick a distro without it.
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@Rhywden doesn’t really affect users, and you can pick a distro without it.
The stuff you mentioned doesn't have a noticable impact on users either.
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@Rhywden you’re comparing a system service with changing the user’s browser.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in WTF Bites:
Or creating a shortcut on the Desktop, because pinning things is ergonomics-wise a shit idea that I'm only happy it didn't take off.
Where is that goddamn stupid program I just installed? I don't see it on the Desktop. I can't find it! I hate computers.Shortcuts get created in the Start menu by default already. That's been the case for nearly 30 years which is long enough that I'd imagine most users look there for programs rather than the desktop.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in WTF Bites:
Tell me, is there a friendly way to actually achieve the result this installer wanted to do - pinning something to the taskbar?
No, and for a good reason.
I bet somebody got a really nice bonus for that feature - The Old New Thing
I often find myself saying, “I bet somebody got a really nice bonus for that feature.” “That feature” is something aggressively user-hostile, like forcing a shortcut into the Quick Launch bar or the Favorites menu, like automatically turning on a taskbar toolbar,
Article said:
You do not use a notification icon to say “Everything is just like it was a moment ago; nothing has changed.” If nothing has changed, then say nothing.
your files are right where you left them.Granted it's not a balloon but is the same thing.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in WTF Bites:
Let's play a game. Take a sample 10
accountants or suchyoung adult girls and count how many of them even know such a thing aspinning programs to their taskbarasking a guy to have sex with her exists and how to do it and how many times they've used it.It doesn't matter they're dense as a brick and can't think for themselves. It doesn't matter if they'd be much happier if you forced yourself on them instead of waiting for their move which will never come. It's current year. Consent matters. Messing up something as important and personal as someone's taskbar without explicit end user input is evil. And creating APIs that enable it is being complicit in evil. There are many evil things Microsoft has done, but in this one case, the shell team (but not the Edge team) made a good call.
And all the unofficial ways are just a natural consequence of x86 being Turing-complete and installers having admin rights. You can never eradicate this problem entirely. It's mathematically impossible. It's not a choice Microsoft made. It's not a choice at all.
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If the end user wanted your program pinned to their taskbar, they'd fucking pin it.
No. They would not.
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@Tsaukpaetra and so they need a nanny
statesoftware to make all the decisions for them? Seriously?
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@Tsaukpaetra and so they need a nanny
statesoftware to make all the decisions for them? Seriously?I'm not sure why you're putting words in my textbox, but son, this is not what I said even if you put it into a GPT extrapolator.
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@Tsaukpaetra I don't know what discussion you are in, but the one I and @Applied-Mediocrity are in is whether Windows should have official taskbar-pinning API so the various installed applications can "help" the end user by automatically pinning what the end user "wants".
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@Tsaukpaetra I don't know what discussion you are in, but the one I and @Applied-Mediocrity are in is whether Windows should have official taskbar-pinning API so the various installed applications can "help" the end user by automatically pinning what the end user "wants".
Indeed. But you indicated regardless of the existence of said interface, a user would always pin the programs they want. This is demonstrably untrue.
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@Tsaukpaetra FFS and I thought I'm autistic.
Yes, people don't always do what they want, even when they can. You are technically correct that this is a thing that happens. But it doesn't matter whatsoever for the discussion. If they don't pin the program, it should be assumed by everyone else they don't want it pinned.
@Applied-Mediocrity's argument is that nanny software should be allowed and made easy to make. He used pretty much the same words you used right now to describe it. I'm sorry for assuming you agree with him.
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FFS and I thought I'm autistic.
You underestimate my power!
If they don't pin the program, it should be assumed by everyone else they don't want it pinned.
This is the line of thinking that lead to the dissolution of folder hierarchy.
Just because the system is becoming more dystopian doesn't mean it's the correct course of action.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF Bites:
If they don't pin the program, it should be assumed by everyone else they don't want it pinned.
This is the line of thinking that lead to the dissolution of folder hierarchy.
So what alternative line of thinking do you propose? Or do you not have any?
Just because the system is becoming more dystopian doesn't mean it's the correct course of action.
Agreed. But in this specific case, this is the correct course of action. Or at least the best of all possible courses of action. And if you disagree, please start by proposing an alternative course of action that could potentially be better. Remember that you already got angry at me for assuming you support the idea of nanny software.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in WTF Bites:
Power-users want to retain control over their environment.
Let's go for this one though.
To be fair, I could see something like a standardized API that asks the user (XYZ wants to pin itself to the taskbar / add an autostart entry / ... -- allow or deny?) would be useful. Let the user (+- systemwide policies) pick a default option. (But, either way, don't let the original application know whether it succeeded...)
I envision this to be implemented as hacky as possible. Windows already "knows" when an installer-like is run, we as developers already know they won't read the configuration wizard and this all the defaults are "enable coverage everywhere!", which Windows can capture attempts at adjusting and sandbox-hole them until the installation concludes. Once it's all done, pop unobtrusive one-time UI with a question to keep the new Shit.
For example, an attempt to pin or quicklaunch an application will silently fail but mark the application as "desires pin", and when launched for the first time (usually immediately by the installer) the taskbar icon could have a little balloon or someshit asking if the user wants to keep the icon there when they're done using it. If ignored or answered negatively, never see it again.
A possible solution with its own problems for sure, but there are ways to appease (mostly) many.
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@Gustav said in Pinned WTF Bites:
assuming you support the idea of nanny software.
I'm assuming you didn't define that in the way I am responding to.
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@Tsaukpaetra did
hack your account? Could you rephrase in a way understandable by humans? And most importantly, what exactly are you proposing instead of "do not have any APIs for manipulating pinned taskbar items"?
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Come to think of it, this functionality is already partially implemented, Windows knows "what programs are going to be affected" when doing a System Restore point, so we're already halfway there.... 🤔
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@Gustav said in Pinned WTF Bites:
what exactly are you proposing instead of "do not have any APIs for manipulating pinned taskbar items"?
Have it, but leave it to the user whether they want it and then don't bother them if they act as if they don't.
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It's current year. Consent matters.
Telemetry settings: current year.
Messing up something as important and personal as someone's taskbar
See: Windows 11. And at least two times before that. Or the Start Menu, every single time.
And creating APIs that enable it is being complicit in evil.
Why does Microsoft even bother to fully document the interfaces? It's not the oneliner level of convenience I'd like it to be, but it's still almost copy-paste simple, especially comparing to how much time it must have taken for some weirdbeard to devise that hack. In fact I bet it was some junior developer's inability to get the sample code working or some old NIH codger's stubborness not to, and not the fact that the thing wasn't ever documented. Well maybe the MSDN link that they had bookmarked 404'ed... messing up something as important and personal as someone's bookmarks, as it were.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Pinned WTF Bites:
Say, you aren't actually a developer or anything, but a government stooge, aren't you?
Who told y.... oh, you were talking to a pile of clothes. In any case, I'd like to see a mere stooge occupy 7 racks and 3 vats.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Pinned WTF Bites:
Come to think of it, this functionality is already partially implemented
Giving the user the choice is 100% implemented.
I doubt there are many users who want apps pinned on the taskbar but don't know they can do so themselves. Most users just don't care.
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@Gribnit said in Pinned WTF Bites:
I'd like to see a mere stooge occupy 7 racks and 3 vats.
Ah, you're not following that bookshelf. The inflation playlist is what you're looking for, I believe.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Pinned WTF Bites:
Why does Microsoft even bother to fully document the interfaces?
Anyway, do you have any point to make beyond "MS are hypocrites"? Because if not, I'll take my leave because a discussion where everyone is in full agreement is quite boring.
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@loopback0 said in Pinned WTF Bites:
Most users just don't care.
Precisely, so run the tutorial once for the app and it's done and everyone goes on with their lives.
Granted I'm sure people are constantly installing applications so someone will complain there's a little bubble over an application the first time they run it, but what can you do?
@loopback0 said in Pinned WTF Bites:
I doubt there are many users who want apps pinned on the taskbar but don't know they can do so themselves.
I work with a guy. Showed him. He forgot the next time. Showed him again. You can't fix the warthog 🐗
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Pinned WTF Bites:
@loopback0 said in Pinned WTF Bites:
Most users just don't care.
Precisely, so run the tutorial once for the app and it's done and everyone goes on with their lives.
You do realize this can be done from the app itself, without any changes to the OS? No APIs are necessary.
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@Gustav said in Pinned WTF Bites:
@Tsaukpaetra said in Pinned WTF Bites:
@loopback0 said in Pinned WTF Bites:
Most users just don't care.
Precisely, so run the tutorial once for the app and it's done and everyone goes on with their lives.
You do realize this can be done from the app itself, without any changes to the OS? No APIs are necessary.
AND YET
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Pinned WTF Bites:
@loopback0 said in Pinned WTF Bites:
Most users just don't care.
Precisely, so run the tutorial once for the app and it's done and everyone goes on with their lives.
Or do nothing, as there's no point nagging users about things they don't care about. It's just another annoying popup.
@loopback0 said in Pinned WTF Bites:
I doubt there are many users who want apps pinned on the taskbar but don't know they can do so themselves.
I work with a guy. Showed him. He forgot the next time. Showed him again. You can't fix the warthog 🐗
Quite. There's just no helping some people.
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@Tsaukpaetra my position is: if developers cared about end users not knowing how to do pinning, they'd put in tutorials. They haven't, so...
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@Gustav said in Pinned WTF Bites:
@Applied-Mediocrity's argument is that nanny software should be allowed
It's not my call to make. Modern apps have less and less features. Game consoles are more popular than PC. Mobile games are more popular than consoles and PC combined. iPhones are more popular among people who have places to be and shit to do. And so on.
You with your desire to control things that happen on ostensibly your computer are irrelevant.
Besides, people won't and shouldn't care about most of the what the fucks in this topic and whatever happens under the lid. They want to use things and most do so as they come. And that's good, because computers are vile machines that Hell itself spat back out. They have been less designed than chaotically happened unto this world, now serving only to torment and confuse. All nerds and techies? Arcane magic practitioners thinking themselves masters who can control the demon machines. But demons will never truly yield.
...
Goddamn Tennessee Honey Jack
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@Gustav said in Pinned WTF Bites:
do you have any point to make beyond "MS are hypocrites"?
I haven't made any outright ad hominem (other than that Polish remark). I think it's against the rules to leave before one of us does. So...
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Pinned WTF Bites:
@Gustav said in Pinned WTF Bites:
@Applied-Mediocrity's argument is that nanny software should be allowed
It's not my call to make.
And yet you made that call. Protip: if you don't want to be held accountable for the words you say, don't say them.
Modern apps have less and less features.
I'd say the opposite. They have more and more features. Specifically, the kinds of features that take control away from the user. Self-rearranging ribbon in Office 2007 was the first step. Now we have AIs deciding for us what we'd like to watch in our free time. Choosing yourself is increasingly more difficult because everyday, more and more "smart" features are rolled out that are meant to make all the thinking for us.
Not being able to programatically pin items to taskbars is one of the few remaining relics of the bygone era where end user control over their own property was considered important. It's a good thing those APIs don't exist.
Game consoles are more popular than PC.
Game consoles have literally always been more popular than PC, except in former states of the Soviet Bloc. And the main reason modern consoles suck is all the added features. PS1's built-in software was capable of only three things: boot up games, play music CDs, and copy/delete save files. That's it, nothing more. And it was enough for everyone. It still is enough for everyone, I'd argue. I've yet to see anybody do anything with their PS4 beyond booting up games and playing music (in very rare cases, videos).
Mobile games are more popular than consoles and PC combined.
Because neither console nor PC gaming has ever been all that popular to start with. But you know what was popular? Solitaire and Minesweeper. Not what we usually think of when talking about gaming industry, but it's the entire raison d'être of mobile gaming - to satisfy people who'd in 1994 would play Solitaire on their office computer. There are many more of those than there are gamers. It was impossible for mobile gaming not to outgrow console and PC gaming.
iPhones are more popular among people who have places to be and shit to do.
Only among those who love bank checks. I wouldn't say their opinion matters.
Same time same place.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Pinned WTF Bites:
Recount how many times you've seen a neatly organized workspace (outside of a centrally-managed work environment and occasional pedantic dickweed who call themselves a power user). Recount all the times you've seen New Folder (2), Copy of Shortcut to Netflix and the entire worth of Word documents ever written by said person right on the Desktop.
Ordinary users can't be bothered to care about all that stupid nerd shit. Computers are not central to their lives. Many other things require their time. They are not any different from any other household stuff to them. They want things to Just WorkTM. And if you put in features, this means taking a lot of defaults that will annoy certain people. This includes pinning assorted shit to the taskbar, if I have to explicitly point it out.
Or creating a shortcut on the Desktop, because pinning things is ergonomics-wise a shit idea that I'm only happy it didn't take off.You know - I'm not sure I care anymore. Not my problem.
Things have been massively simplified but the world has consistently produced dumber users too. And for some reason, that's making my life more difficult, because some things that I've done aren't possible any more, or are more awkward to do (in the name of simplicity). Diagnostic messages that used to mean something are turned into "LOL ERROR". Hell, the kind of computer users that used to pick up stuff are seemingly getting dumber too, simply because they're 'protected' from ever peeking under the hood.
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@topspin said in Pinned WTF Bites:
@Rhywden you’re comparing a system service with changing the user’s browser.
Does it actually change the browser? I've yet to run across it actually resetting the default browser.
