Is clean architecture controversial?
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
And sure, design and correctness matter. I've been pushing back against my own company's tendency to spin out half-baked designs and then pivot to something else, leaving stuff to molder and get in the way.
TIL @Benjamin-Hall works at Google.
No, but my brother does.
I think this particular brain-worm is fairly common in the less stodgy, bound-to-hardware parts of the industry.
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@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@DogsB said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@DogsB said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@DogsB said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@DogsB said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
The words zealot and bs merchant come to mind.
Be the meme you always knew you could be.
I do in fact feel like a minority person who didn't do anything overly wrong, but still has to deal with everyone wanting to kill him, authority figures and random gangbangers alike.
You do know that's the protagonist in a grand theft auto game.
Did you even read my post?
Do you understand you're trying to compare yourself favourably to a violent psychopath?
And your point is...?
About what I expected.
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@DogsB said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@DogsB said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@DogsB said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@DogsB said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
The words zealot and bs merchant come to mind.
Be the meme you always knew you could be.
I do in fact feel like a minority person who didn't do anything overly wrong, but still has to deal with everyone wanting to kill him, authority figures and random gangbangers alike.
You do know that's the protagonist in a grand theft auto game.
Did you even read my post?
Do you understand you're trying to compare yourself favourably to a violent psychopath?
Isn't that a prerequisite for using Rust?
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@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@boomzilla contrary to popular belief, not all religious fanatics are violent.
You just like to compare yourself favourably to violent psychopaths?
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@DogsB said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@DogsB said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@DogsB said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@DogsB said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
The words zealot and bs merchant come to mind.
Be the meme you always knew you could be.
I do in fact feel like a minority person who didn't do anything overly wrong, but still has to deal with everyone wanting to kill him, authority figures and random gangbangers alike.
You do know that's the protagonist in a grand theft auto game.
Did you even read my post?
Do you understand you're trying to compare yourself favourably to a violent
psychopathsociopath , carry on...
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@Gribnit said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@DogsB said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@DogsB said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@DogsB said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@DogsB said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
The words zealot and bs merchant come to mind.
Be the meme you always knew you could be.
I do in fact feel like a minority person who didn't do anything overly wrong, but still has to deal with everyone wanting to kill him, authority figures and random gangbangers alike.
You do know that's the protagonist in a grand theft auto game.
Did you even read my post?
Do you understand you're trying to compare yourself favourably to a violent
psychopathsociopath? , carry on...
Well if you want to be trendy
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@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
Constant refactorings are the key to maintaining quality codebase in the long run. Old architecture will always fall apart eventually, and the only way to avoid it is to replace it with new architecture.
That is literal insanity. Computational determinism means the exact opposite: if it works today, it will work tomorrow, it will work next year, and it will work decades from now.
Of course, if the OS vendor goes and changes the basic APIs out from under you, all bets are off. But barring that, code that works continues to work. I'm currently employed maintaining an industry-leading system with a really ugly legacy codebase that was written ~40 years ago. It still works! Which is why everyone's reluctant to touch it and refactor things. It could definitely use some cleanup, but its architecture has never fallen apart.
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@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@DogsB said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@boomzilla contrary to popular belief, not all religious fanatics are violent.
You just like to compare yourself favourably to violent psychopaths?
Absolutely! They're the best! Like that girl who didn't want her weekend to end. And you know what she did? She didn't go to school! She decided to stay home! Just like that! She has bigger balls than all of you combined. At 16! Can you believe it!?
I suppose you could throw in a “so random” and complete the act.
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@HardwareGeek said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@DogsB said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
It's unlikely your boss is negotiating the contract the business agreed too.
Sometimes the schedule is set by external factors that are not negotiable. "We have to deliver our product to the customer by $delivery_date so that they can engineer it into their widgets and have their product ready to demo at CES on $show_date." $show_date is set years in advance by a third party and is absolutely not negotiable between your boss and the customer. You might be able to fudge $delivery_date a little, but slipping your schedule puts your customer in a pinch to deliver their product on time and may make them more likely to choose your competitor's product instead of yours for their next product.
Give them incremental releases as you make progress, so you don't end up with a 100% serialized pipeline where they're blocked until you're finished.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Mason_Wheeler said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
And sure, design and correctness matter. I've been pushing back against my own company's tendency to spin out half-baked designs and then pivot to something else, leaving stuff to molder and get in the way.
TIL @Benjamin-Hall works at Google.
No, but my brother does.
I think this particular brain-worm is fairly common in the
less stodgy, bound-to-hardware parts of theindustry. ... I can only be useful a couple times a day tho so words, folks
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@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@DogsB said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@boomzilla contrary to popular belief, not all religious fanatics are violent.
You just like to compare yourself favourably to violent psychopaths?
Absolutely! They're the best! Like that girl who didn't want her weekend to end. And you know what she did? She didn't go to school! She decided to stay home! Just like that! She has bigger balls than all of you combined. At 16! Can you believe it!?
Such violence!
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@DogsB said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Gribnit said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@DogsB said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@DogsB said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@DogsB said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@DogsB said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
The words zealot and bs merchant come to mind.
Be the meme you always knew you could be.
I do in fact feel like a minority person who didn't do anything overly wrong, but still has to deal with everyone wanting to kill him, authority figures and random gangbangers alike.
You do know that's the protagonist in a grand theft auto game.
Did you even read my post?
Do you understand you're trying to compare yourself favourably to a violent
psychopathsociopath? , carry on...
Well if you want to be trendy
It's an important distinction. A psychopath has an actual break with reality, i.e. perceives a different world than you do. A sociopath perceives the same reality you do but does not care, and dislikes being compared to psychopaths.
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@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@DogsB okay I may have overdid the obfuscation. Still, I wonder if anyone gets it.
It was pretty clear1. Nobody else went to school that day either.
1 ETA: But daddy doesn't understand it.
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
a really ugly ... codebase
Fair.
that was written ~40 years ago. ...
Fair.
its architecture has never fallen apart.
False.
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@Gribnit that was a suprisingly lucid elaboration. Who are you and what have you done with @Gribnit?
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@topspin said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Gribnit that was a suprisingly lucid elaboration. Who are you and what have you done with @Gribnit?
I'm implied by the fixed-point theorem. Don't panic, I'm transient.
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@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@DogsB okay I may have overdid the obfuscation. Still, I wonder if anyone gets it.
"Office Space", assuming sufficient overobfuscation, which is implied.
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@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
Go read about unit tests somewhere else.
Why don't you read about them? Read about how, in real-world code, it takes ~600x more LOC worth of tests than of project code to actually be confident in your test coverage. Read how Djikstra tore apart the whole idea before it ever became mainstream. Read Joel Spolsky talking about how overreliance on automated testing is what gave us Windows Vista. Read about how people testing the concept of unit testing find that in real-world scenarios, it can end up enforcing more errors than it fixes.
Stop clinging to dogmatic zealotry and actually educate yourself on the subject.
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@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
She has bigger balls than all of you combined. At 16!
There are several threads related to that.
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
Give them incremental releases as you make progress, so you don't end up with a 100% serialized pipeline where they're blocked until you're finished.
In the hardware world, each incremental release may take several months and cost millions of dollars, so that approach is avoided if at all possible. Sometimes it's unavoidable, though.
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@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
Just go kill yourselves y'all already. The world will be a better place without the code you shit out.
Welcome to WTDWTF!
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@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
Unlike you, I didn't just read.
Unlike you, I actually did read. Did you read any of the things I linked?
And yes, I actually did as well. In my rather extensive experience, unit tests are garbage that provide negative value to a project. Higher-level integration tests and end-to-end tests are often useful, and the most useful thing of all, by far, is actual human testers who are able to notice issues that aren't part of the script.
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@Gustav I've seen a little bit of everything. That happens when you've been in this line of work for enough years.
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@topspin said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Gribnit that was a suprisingly lucid elaboration. Who are you and what have you done with @Gribnit?
Something about stopped clocks...
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@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
A madman who shouldn't be allowed to hold safety scissors, let alone develop software for others to use. Who doesn't know the first thing about programming, such as that automatic tests aren't be-all-end-all.
Worse still: a fan of Rust and FP dogma!
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
Unlike you, I didn't just read.
Unlike you, I actually did read. Did you read any of the things I linked?
And yes, I actually did as well. In my rather extensive experience, unit tests are garbage that provide negative value to a project. Higher-level integration tests and end-to-end tests are often useful, and the most useful thing of all, by far, is actual human testers who are able to notice issues that aren't part of the script.
I've had unit tests provide value, especially for algorithmic stuff. But a lot of the interesting things happen in the interstices between components (e.g. "is this thing actually getting saved to the database right or is there something funky going on") where integration tests and end-to-end tests help. And yes, lots of stuff where the issue with automated tests is that you can only test what you can think of. So you need experienced people who can look at a data pattern and go "that's not right".
Plus all the things that are extremely difficult and costly to automated test in a non-fragile way, like a good chunk of UI interactions.
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@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
It's as if you hold me in total and utter disdain
Now we're getting somewhere!
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@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Mason_Wheeler it's beyond me how one can simultaneously school others on the importance of manual software testing in preventing bugs, and shit on Rust.
What does the one have to do with the other?
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@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
And yes, lots of stuff where the issue with automated tests is that you can only test what you can think of.
If that's a problem then your specification sucks. The list of everything that could possibly happen in your program should NEVER be a guesswork.
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@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Mason_Wheeler said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Mason_Wheeler it's beyond me how one can simultaneously school others on the importance of manual software testing in preventing bugs, and shit on Rust.
What does the one have to do with the other?
Either you're serious about preventing bugs, or you're not. Pick a side already.
False dichotomy. I'm serious about producing working software.
Implicit in this is the requirement to be able to produce software at all. This rules out Rust a priori.
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@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
And yes, lots of stuff where the issue with automated tests is that you can only test what you can think of.
If that's a problem then your specification sucks. The list of everything that could possibly happen in your program should NEVER be a guesswork.
Uh...have you actually interacted with real users in anything like a complex system? The possible interactions (especially when legacy data with different constraints) is rather unbounded and scales extremely-worse-than-linear (roughly factorially) with the system size.
"Test all the things" (and all the buzzword architectures) works great for toy problems and entirely green-field work because this kind of thing doesn't bite yet. But for any real system, life isn't so nice and clean. As we said in physics: the difference between principle and practice is that in principle there is no difference, but in practice there is. Reality is a harsh mistress.
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@Gustav said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@boomzilla we're already talking about the acid trip fantasy land where testers are actually competent enough to test software.
The best results I've seen throughout my career have consistently come from testers.
Are you sure you're not , from a different Earth as the rest of us?
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@Mason_Wheeler you’re thinking of Raku there.
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@topspin Never heard of it.
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@Mason_Wheeler It's the language of the Machine Spirits.
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Is clean architecture controversial?:
@topspin Never heard of it.
It’s quite the saga.
https://what.thedailywtf.com/topic/27286/the-raku-programming-language/
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