Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage
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Limit it by default, but let moderators allow more for users that insist and accept the mental health risks that comes with it
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What about those of us who come to the garage for our mental health?
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Automatically ban all users for whom (garage posts/all posts) falls outside of 25%–75%
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I'm not sure about this (and by that I mean: no). This place holds sacred the one principle of the almighty
in terms of cramping your style, expecting you to instead become bored of being a left hand nut on a right hand threaded dick before using any repressive actions.Many ways have been suggested to improve the garage, none have succeeded. Well, none have been tried, actually, but that's perfectly in line with the principle noted above.
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@kazitor I'll see myself out.
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@sockpuppet7 said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
Limit it by default, but let moderators allow more for users that insist and accept the mental health risks that comes with it
We already have a thread for this sort of thing:
https://what.thedailywtf.com/topic/24214/official-forum-improvement-requests-thread
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This is a human problem, not a technical one; thus you're not going to fix it with technology. Not even the assembled wizardry of this forum is going to reliably fix this.
I mean, I could well imagine some of the more adventurous here taking the posts from here, feeding them into some kind of AI to do sentiment analysis to see when individuals are more charged than usual and do some kind of 'hey, uh, are you sure you shouldn't take a break' suggestion.
But it shouldn't be more than a suggestion.
I think the spirit of the OP is valid: the Garage is a highly charged place, whatever your stance on it (and this is by no means an insult, I should add), and highly charged environments are places where some people positively thrive and others struggle. And that's OK, That's normal, even.
It's just that some people don't realise when they're not coping in the environment and it takes some serious explosive incident where it hits them - and others around them - like a freight train and everyone feels the shockwave.
If you were going to add any restrictions, it definitely should not be by default. Some of the participants have already priced that in and there is no need to police or penalise everyone, because (and some of you will be surprised to hear me say this) the Garage is not inherently the problem, and as a consequence everyone is not the problem.
Before I go further, I should add, the people for whom this suggestion might be beneficial are also not a problem per se. It's just a highly charged situation meeting people who might not be best suited to it. That's just a set of circumstances.
But if you wanted to have some kind of future context where peoples' access to the Garage could be rationed, here's how I think it would have to work:
- By default, no restrictions applied once you get access to the Garage.
- Any restrictions are completely opt-in by the individual.
- The individual sets some rules by which they get access to the Garage, e.g. 2 hours a day starting at 6pm. Think of it like Windows Active Hours but actually working as intended.
- Outside of that time period, zero Garage access.
- Once the schedule is set, the user cannot widen the windows of opportunity, but arrange them - so if they set 2 hours/day starting at 6pm, they could move it to 4pm on a given day if that's what the schedule for their day would permit.
- Increasing hours per day would most likely be time-gated, perhaps a week at your current schedule per hour you want to increase it to, so if you're on 2 hours/day, you can't boost it to 4 hours until you've done 2 weeks at 2 hours/day.
- The intent of this is to help people with impulsive issues not just be allowed to smash the button and get in there full tilt.
I mean, we're ultimately talking a social problem not a technical one, and as we all know, you don't fix social problems with technical solutions, but if you wanted to give someone the tools for the job to help them mitigate their own behaviours, I don't think this is the worst way possible.
With the best will in the world, some people have trouble staying away when they probably ought to. I should know, after all
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@Arantor said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
Not even the assembled wizardry of this forum is going to reliably fix this.
A sufficient application of fireball will fix anything!
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@Arantor said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
I mean, we're ultimately talking a social problem
There is no problem.
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@MrL said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
There is no problem.
Sorry, that's not actually true. It might be subjectively true in your world, but it's not subjectively true for everyone.
The fact Gaska requested a self ban indicates something is misaligned somewhere and this suggestion was made in the spirit of realising others deserve a bit of empathy. I realise you don't have that particular malady to hand, but others of us absolutely do.
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@Arantor said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
@MrL said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
There is no problem.
Sorry, that's not actually true. It might be subjectively true in your world, but it's not subjectively true.
There's only one world. One where some people search for problems where there aren't any.
The fact Gaska requested a self ban indicates something is misaligned somewhere
Yes, in Gąska.
and this suggestion was made in the spirit of realising others deserve a bit of empathy. I realise you don't have that particular malady to hand, but others of us absolutely do.
Whine more.
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@MrL if you like I absolutely can do that.
Yes, we both agree that some individuals (it isn't just Gaska) have a problem. What I don't know is whether you understand what this topic was about - recognising that some people have one or more problems and lack the tools or self-awareness to help themselves, and that perhaps thinking about their problem with a view to trying to help isn't the worst idea ever. It doesn't mean anything will actually happen, but just realising that other people have other needs goes a surprisingly long way.
I mean, we're not all you, being the pinnacle of well-adjusted and with precisely no discernable character flaws, the rest of us are just trying to make do as best we can. Sometimes we stumble. It's nice if, having stumbled, you don't have to entirely pick yourself up all on your own occasionally.
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@MrL said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
@Arantor said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
@MrL said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
There is no problem.
Sorry, that's not actually true. It might be subjectively true in your world, but it's not subjectively true.
There's only one world. One where some people search for problems where there aren't any.
But that's like saying that since some people don't have diabetes then diabetes isn't a problem.
The garage is definitely a problem for some people and I'd agree that it fits better into the "social" than "technical" range of issues.
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Guys, stop it now, it's about two months too early for that (
:
)!
Filed under: there are 42 Internet Pointzzz at stake!
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@Arantor said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
we're ultimately talking a social problem not a technical one
Hey everybody! I've got a social disease!
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@Arantor said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
Yes, we both agree that some individuals (it isn't just Gaska) have a problem. What I don't know is whether you understand what this topic was about - recognising that some people have one or more problems and lack the tools or self-awareness to help themselves, and that perhaps thinking about their problem with a view to trying to help isn't the worst idea ever. It doesn't mean anything will actually happen, but just realising that other people have other needs goes a surprisingly long way.
You want to help Gąska? Talk to him about his issues. Contact him with a support group. Pay for his therapy.
But no, let's whine about 'the problem' and change things for everyone.I mean, we're not all you, being the pinnacle of well-adjusted and with precisely no discernable character flaws, the rest of us are just trying to make do as best we can. Sometimes we stumble. It's nice if, having stumbled, you don't have to entirely pick yourself up all on your own occasionally.
I'm actually a lot better than that, but it's somehat accurate.
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@boomzilla said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
@MrL said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
@Arantor said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
@MrL said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
There is no problem.
Sorry, that's not actually true. It might be subjectively true in your world, but it's not subjectively true.
There's only one world. One where some people search for problems where there aren't any.
But that's like saying that since some people don't have diabetes then diabetes isn't a problem.
The garage is definitely a problem for some people and I'd agree that it fits better into the "social" than "technical" range of issues.
Some people cut themselves. Shall we confiscate all knives?
Feature request: leave the garage alone.
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@MrL said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
Sometimes we stumble. It's nice if, having stumbled, you don't have to entirely pick yourself up all on your own occasionally.
I occasionally stumble, but since I only pretend to walk so as not to unduly appall or enthrall the masses, I just keep hovering.
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@MrL said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
But no, let's whine about 'the problem' and change things for everyone.
That's a shame because that wasn't what I was doing.
The OP (which was not me) suggested changing everything. Even with my personal stance, I disagree on this outlook, such that you and I agree that the general situation shouldn't change for everyone.
I suggested that if - IF - you were going to do something, what that something might look like, as a tool for individuals to help themselves manage their choices. Therapy isn't a magic bullet to fix things, based on my own experiences of it1.
You will also note that I stated quite plainly that I didn't think that was the right solution either.
I'm glad the Garage exists. I'm glad a number of people find it enriches their lives. But it's not for everyone - and not everyone is as awesome as you to be able to deal with that. I'd have thought someone so superior would understand that the lesser peoples need help occasionally.
- Unless my problem is that I'm too rubbish to find a good therapist. I wouldn't rule it out, I have in the past been too incapable to correctly commit suicide, so I wouldn't rule out being too incapable of finding a good therapist either.
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@MrL said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
@boomzilla said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
@MrL said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
@Arantor said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
@MrL said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
There is no problem.
Sorry, that's not actually true. It might be subjectively true in your world, but it's not subjectively true.
There's only one world. One where some people search for problems where there aren't any.
But that's like saying that since some people don't have diabetes then diabetes isn't a problem.
The garage is definitely a problem for some people and I'd agree that it fits better into the "social" than "technical" range of issues.
Some people cut themselves. Shall we confiscate all knives?
No. And that's not what @Arantor is suggesting. He's suggesting limiting access to knives for those people. @sockpuppet7's OP was to limit access by default to everyone.
Feature request: leave the garage alone.
Yeah, we already cut everyone's access completely by default. If you don't want to go in there...don't. The garage was certainly not @Gąska's only problem.
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@boomzilla said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
The garage was certainly not @Gąska's only problem.
Perhaps if you would communicate more clearly. He clearly stated his problem 1,317 posts ago.
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@MrL said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
@Arantor said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
Yes, we both agree that some individuals (it isn't just Gaska) have a problem. What I don't know is whether you understand what this topic was about - recognising that some people have one or more problems and lack the tools or self-awareness to help themselves, and that perhaps thinking about their problem with a view to trying to help isn't the worst idea ever. It doesn't mean anything will actually happen, but just realising that other people have other needs goes a surprisingly long way.
You want to help Gąska? Talk to him about his issues. Contact him with a support group. Pay for his therapy.
But no, let's whine about 'the problem' and change things for everyone.I mean, we're not all you, being the pinnacle of well-adjusted and with precisely no discernable character flaws, the rest of us are just trying to make do as best we can. Sometimes we stumble. It's nice if, having stumbled, you don't have to entirely pick yourself up all on your own occasionally.
I'm actually a lot better than that, but it's somehat accurate.
Dude, change your tone. You may not have noticed but this is not the Garage.
Last time I checked, talking about something does not automatically lead to change. So, maybe take your own advice on "stop whining".
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@Rhywden Not gonna defend the tone, but the message is sound: the garage is already purely voluntary, and not interacting with it is as simple as "don't sign up for the garage".
That should be that. We're all big boys and girls here. The last thing I'd like to see here is the same sort of nanny tendencies that are nigh inescapable anywhere else.
One for the Stammbuch (and the thread): "Don't try to solve other people's problems for them. You're not nearly as smart as you think you are."
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@GOG said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
Don't try to solve other people's problems for them
When doing so anyway, make sure you're only trying to solve it for them, and that they've asked, that last bit is important and somewhat implies the first bit. Also be sure it's not funnier / more ethical / both to set them up for spectacular failure.
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@GOG that's the part that's complicated. For some people - like Gaska, and in some contexts me - it's not quite as simple as 'don't sign up for something'.
Let's take Gaska as a case in point. Let's say that a decision was taken and he was allowed back.
Situation A: he has no Garage access - chances are he might just decide that's not enough fun and walk.
Situation B: he has Garage access - chances are he might flame out again.
I'm saying that the spirit of the OP is considering some kind of third option that is somewhere in the middle of 'all or nothing' because some people, for whatever reason, can't moderate their own behaviour.
We don't have to help. But if we did, and we decided on implementing a technical measure, I outlined what I believe would be it.
I think it's very clear that no-one here really wants to change the status quo. Not even me.
But perhaps we can remember that other people are fighting battles we know nothing about and maybe, just maybe, be a little kinder about it?
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@Arantor according to those in the know, Gaska's issues were much broader than the garage. In fact, the most triggering things were outside the garage (and not even garage bait).
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@Benjamin-Hall I know, I saw some of that myself.
It's all far more complicated than anything put forward in this thread, but I think it's good that we're talking about the fact that mental health is complicated and that not everyone is equally disposed towards the same solutions.
Again, I was pointing out a hypothetical of what could be done, and it should be noted: against a specific context which was intentionally reduced from reality for things that didn't seem entirely relevant for the discussion point at hand.
Gaska's situation is not unique here, just possibly the most explosive, and it has facets that can definitely be explored on their own.
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@boomzilla said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
We already have a thread for this sort of thing:
https://what.thedailywtf.com/topic/24214/official-forum-improvement-requests-thread@ben_lubar said in Official forum improvement requests thread:
Just kidding this thread is actually the
Bad forum "improvements" that will not be addedAt the time I didn't think it was a fit, but after reading the replies I think it's fair enough
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@sockpuppet7 I won't hold that against you.
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@MrL said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
There's only one world. One where some people search for problems where there aren't any.
There are many worlds and we live in the wrong one.
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@Arantor Yeah, I see what you mean.
Nevertheless, I do think that self-agency is the cornerstone of all values, and that with it comes responsibility for ones choices. I am not in favour of ceding the power to decide what's good for you on other people, and even less so the assumption of such power by people who "know better". Nothing good ever comes from that.
@MrL's take was abrasive, but he does have a point: the way to help a friend is to help him come to terms with a world that is, all too often, shitty - primarily because it wasn't made for (generic and specific) you. Shielding him from it may seem like a solution, but at the end of that road lies the Benevolent World Exploder.
My first instinct would be to offer to grab a beer and talk it out, but it's kinda hard given that I'm in Warsaw and last we heard he was in Chicago (and even in the old country, he still lived a ways away).
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@GOG said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
even less so the assumption of such power by people who "know better". Nothing good ever comes from that.
Which brings to mind the famous C. S. Lewis quotation:
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.
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@HardwareGeek said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
Which brings to mind the famous C. S. Lewis quotation:
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.
Aye. It do be like that.
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@HardwareGeek said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
Which brings to mind the famous C. S. Lewis quotation:
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.
He said while Anglican.
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@GOG that was why I suggested that if - IF - a measure we’re to be implemented (conceding I didn’t think it was the right tool for the job) what I had suggested something explicitly opt-in by the person who wanted/needed it.
Yes it contained some “enforcement” but it was opt-in, and such measures were time limited with a maximum run-out period of 23 weeks, for something I threw out as a starting point for discussion.
Sometimes people know they need help, and sometimes that help is someone else taking away the keys, and being prepared to not give them back so easily. But never was I advocating for this to be enforced on others, simply “a thing that could exist for an individual to use for themselves”.
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@GOG said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
@Rhywden Not gonna defend the tone, but the message is sound: the garage is already purely voluntary, and not interacting with it is as simple as "don't sign up for the garage".
Yeah, but the message gets lost when you're presenting it in a very hostile manner. Strangely enough, people don't tend to listen when you insult them.
One for the Stammbuch (and the thread): "Don't try to solve other people's problems for them. You're not nearly as smart as you think you are."
I don't really subscribe to that notion, it's overly simplistic as most such sayings are. Sometimes people really can't find their way out of a hole without being guided towards a solution.
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@Rhywden said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
Sometimes people really can't find their way out of a hole without being guided towards a solution.
Yup, this. And sometimes they even know about the hole and would appreciate a rope tossed in their direction even if happy to climb out by themselves.
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@Arantor said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
What I don't know is whether you understand what this topic was about - recognising that some people have one or more problems and lack the tools or self-awareness to help themselves, and that perhaps thinking about their problem with a view to trying to help isn't the worst idea ever. It doesn't mean anything will actually happen, but just realising that other people have other needs goes a surprisingly long way.
Stop doing this. It's getting dangerously close to an emotional manipulation technique called "weaponized empathy". I'm sure that's not your intent, but the people who do have that intent use exactly the same language.
We all know that there are people who have problems that they can't fix themselves, and that there are people who have other needs.
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@antiquarian said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
Stop doing this. It's getting dangerously close to an emotional manipulation technique called "weaponized empathy". I'm sure that's not your intent, but the people who do have that intent use exactly the same language.
And you're getting dangerously close to going full @ben_lubar (despite, ironically, having very different views).
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@Zerosquare Get back to me when I start banning people then banning everyone who questions it.
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The point is that "People I don't like say X, so nobody should say X, even in a different context" is a fallacy, regardless of whether it's @Ben_Lubar or you using that argument.
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@Zerosquare I guess I didn't give enough information in my earlier post. It's not a matter of people I don't like saying it. Assuming people don't care about something without evidence other than the fact that they don't agree with your solution or don't agree about who is responsible for solving the problem is bad no matter who does it.
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@antiquarian I will admit I was somewhat annoyed in that particular post, and I didn't intend to weaponise it but I think it came out that way anyway.
I find it hard to deal with people who don't/won't empathise with others, especially when it's clear someone in the discussion context is hurting and that was something of a 'ffs please just acknowledge there even is a problem even though no-one is asking you to fix it, change anything at this time or indeed do anything about it at all'.
I guess I'm also reacting negatively to what I perceive as 'ok so people have problems should entirely fuck off until they have solved their problems and not bother us' which - while I freely admit we're not a mental health support group - feels very wrong to me as an attitude. I want to help people as best I can, especially when I see people hurting.
My takeaway is that we don't talk about mental health enough, just as people - I don't mean this specific group of people, I mean people in general, and when we do talk about it, we're woefully inept about it.
Especially I feel like we as an industry are more likely to be presumed to not have such issues in general because societally there's a lot of conditioning that men in particular aren't meant to have feelings, and that our industry covets people who can just churn things out without feeling any of the downsides.
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@Rhywden said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
Sometimes people really can't find their way out of a hole without being guided towards a solution.
We're not talking about guidance here, we're talking about force.
Guidance is "Hey, maybe you should be spending less time in the garage; it's making you feel bad."
Force is "You may not spend more than x time in the garage" - which is the proposition under discussion.
Don't mistake one for the other.
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@GOG the OP was but I think we all agreed that wasn’t the right approach.
I merely suggested a way for people to be able to say “don’t let me spend more than x time in the Garage” as a possible middle ground. I don’t think it’s necessarily the right approach either but it is at least an avenue of discussion.
The reality is that some people, no matter how well intentioned, have issues self-moderating and I believe would appreciate the option to be helped out in this regard.
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@Arantor I remain unconvinced, and - frankly - I'm tired of this discussion, so I'll take my own advice and bow out.
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@GOG said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
@Rhywden said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
Sometimes people really can't find their way out of a hole without being guided towards a solution.
We're not talking about guidance here, we're talking about force.
Guidance is "Hey, maybe you should be spending less time in the garage; it's making you feel bad."
Force is "You may not spend more than x time in the garage" - which is the proposition under discussion.
Don't mistake one for the other.
I don't see anyone proposing forcing someone to do something. Please show me where that's what @Arantor proposed. You might want to pay attention to the word "opt-in" in the 2nd point of his list.
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@Arantor said in Feature request: Limit time most users can be on the trolleybus garage:
I find it hard to deal with people who don't/won't empathise with others
Continuing from my followup post, how do you know that they don't or won't empathize with others? I'm guessing you're referring to the posts that said "that's his problem". If so, maybe the tone isn't to your liking but that position is entirely consistent with having empathy, and I'll explain how by giving my position.
I hope that Gaska somehow manages to fix the problems he's having. No one should have to live like that. At the same time, I believe that the changes that would be needed would require at least his consent if not his active participation, and in that sense I would say that it's his problem.
That said I'm not sure what the value is in expressing empathy for someone who (in theory) isn't even around to see it. Is it a matter of it being something that good people simply do and therefore you'd rather not deal with people who won't do it? Or is there something else going on?
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You are too close to an independent arrival at the Network Benefit Hypothesis and I am closing this discussion. @boomzilla, do the needful.
