.net foundation brouhaha
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https://robmensching.com/blog/posts/2021/10/6/how-the-.net-foundation-kerfuffle-became-a-brouhaha/
It's long, but worth it.
Not to put too dramatic a point on it, this is where my blood ran cold.
The .NET Foundation had admin access to the WiX Toolset organization for a week, not more than a week ago. There is no way they would have moved the WiX Toolset to the GitHub Enterprise in that window. They would never do that after only two weeks ago, I told them I didn't want to give them admin access because I didn't trust them. They wouldn't betray what little trust I had left after I explicitly told them I was concerned. Would they?
They did. The WiX Toolset was moved into .NET Foundation's GitHub Enterprise without any discussion or warning.
...
Clearly, I'm still a little angry. I don't know what happens next really.
All I do know is that the WiX Toolset back is in "public" GitHub, just like it was before. And the .NET Foundation knows how to contact me. I'll be over here writing code.
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Wow. That's very scummy.
I'm certain the next step is to invoke "possession is 9/10 of the law. This is ours now".
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I think my phone is
too narrow
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What did the Foundation want to achieve? Did they really think that open source maintainers - by definition a bunch of obsessive nerds with way too much time on their hands - wouldn't notice the ownership change?
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I doubt "the Foundation" "wanted" anything.
I was likely just some equally obsessive nerd thinking "hey, this should be moved to our github because it's not there."
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@Zecc well, they demanded owner (not even admin, OWNER) rights to all repos so they can enforce new CoC. And the official statement by the foundation's executive director says in no uncertain terms that moving all repos to one organization is good and everyone should want it.
For bonus tinfoil points. TFA mentions undoing the damage fired off 47 notification emails. The Foundation's initial action generated 0 emails across all projects. How did they do it? And is it connected to the fact that Microsoft owns Github too?
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@Gąska said in .net foundation brouhaha:
fired off 47 notification emails
Presumably the initial migration also triggered said emails. To the new owner.
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@Gąska said in .net foundation brouhaha:
And the official statement by the foundation's executive director says in no uncertain terms that moving all repos to one organization is good and everyone should want it.
According to the mentioned pull request, the Executive Director seems like a real treat to be around too:
I am a maintainer of RxUI, have been for years, thanks!
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@Deadfast said in .net foundation brouhaha:
@Gąska said in .net foundation brouhaha:
And the official statement by the foundation's executive director says in no uncertain terms that moving all repos to one organization is good and everyone should want it.
According to the mentioned pull request, the Executive Director seems like a real treat to be around too:
I am a maintainer of RxUI, have been for years, thanks!
LOL, and they're accusing her of violating the CoC!
RLittlesII commented 10 days ago
I will point out that the discussion on this PR feels like a Code of Conduct violation.We have a template for Issues and Pull Requests that link to "How to Contribute".
We ask that issues be opened, and a discussion started to foster a healthy community inside the ReactiveUI project.
When presented with that constructive feedback, the response was less than professional. There is no acceptance of the responsibility for the actions demonstrated. No care was given to what is best for other project maintainers, let alone the overall community. No apology to those affected by our mistakes.
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Wait, nobody has mentioned so far that the director in question RESIGNED? A few days ago?
Change in .NET Foundation Leadership · dotnet-foundation Home · Discussion #40
.NET Foundation and Community members, We regret to inform you that yesterday, Claire Novotny, Executive Director of the .NET Foundation, sent the board of directors her letter of resignation. The ...
Props for owning the mistake.
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@Gąska eh, wasn't in the comment thread that was linked and I give no shits about .Net anything enough to keep following it otherwise, so...
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@Gąska said in .net foundation brouhaha:
Wait, nobody has mentioned so far that the director in question RESIGNED? A few days ago?
Change in .NET Foundation Leadership · dotnet-foundation Home · Discussion #40
.NET Foundation and Community members, We regret to inform you that yesterday, Claire Novotny, Executive Director of the .NET Foundation, sent the board of directors her letter of resignation. The ...
Props for owning the mistake.
But geez that thread is its own kind of dumpster fire. Like this absolute simp:
dustinmoris
5 days ago
What I don't understand is why the entire board of the DNF was/is quiet in all of the discussions which have been going on for days. Claire is only one of many members so if anything she should have been supported by the rest of the board or at least the board should have also engaged with the community and provided some re-assurance or some explanations to calm the mood. There was no engagement at all from the DNF board until only Clair issued an apology and even then the DNF board kept quiet and let the thread grow from bad to worse. To me personally it feels like the DNF board let Claire take all the blame on her own by not saying a word. I don't know what is going on behind the scenes, but this feels wrong to me. Even if Claire might have done a mistake surely everyone on the board carries some responsibility for what was going on, so why not address the issues in a joint statement and support each other and share the responsibility? You can always make changes to the board later on, but at least present yourself as a team that stands up for each other to the outside world because that is what real leadership should be like.EDIT:
No wonder Claire has resigned. She apologised for a mistake she made in regards to the PR and then addressed some of the other issues too. Irrespective of what people think of her mistake, nobody else joined the conversation and said a sorry too. I'm sure other board members didn't live up to the standard that many members might have expected otherwise we wouldn't be in this mess. So basically in the thread it looked like everyone was piling up on Claire alone and that is simply wrong. It's weak and I don't think this is a get out card for the rest of the board. In fact I wish things would have been handled differently so that nobody would have felt the need to resign - at least no tlike that.
EDIT 2:
There is no greater teacher in life than making a mistake. If people who make mistakes leave you, then not only do you have to clean the mess yourself, you're also not going to be the person anymore who will benefit from their newly learned wisdom.
Yeah, well, she was the one who waded in there like a jerk and violated her organization's own policies and sure as fuck didn't apologize soon enough or even appear to realize she'd done anything wrong in the discussion on the PR.
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Anything remotely related to .NET and .NET foundation can go eat a bag of dicks.
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@stillwater .NET is the worst, except for literally every other programming ecosystem under the sun.
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@Gąska Are you being serious or sarcastic?
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@stillwater "worst" was sarcastic. Like, seriously. Even with all the shit in it, the stupid decisions haunting us 20 years later, all the half-baked technologies, missing basic functionality, and overengineered everything - it's still one of the best programming platforms out there. Especially for GUI applications. I've yet to find a GUI library that would be even close to WPF in terms of functionality and ease of use. Even though it's super incomplete, it integrates seamlessly with WinForms, which while it uses very outdated paradigms, is still among the best of its generation. And Visual Studio, with all its quirks, is still the least problematic IDEs I've ever used, and believe me, I've used many.
Name one ecosystem that all around does it better than .Net. I'll wait.
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@Gąska I have no idea what's happening in the GUI / Desktop world. My most recent gig was with the .NET Ecosystem surrounding .NET Core 1.x and up for Web and Azure. Between the multiple versions of the Azure SDKs, changes between 2.x and 3.x versions of .NET Core, and weird magic behavior on how each runtime is supported on Azure, It has been nothing but pain.
@Gąska said in .net foundation brouhaha:
Name one ecosystem that all around does it better than .Net. I'll wait.
Wait all you want. I don't care about other ecosystems. This is the one I work with and it fucking sucks.
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@Gąska said in .net foundation brouhaha:
And Visual Studio, with all its quirks, is still the least problematic IDEs I've ever used, and believe me, I've used many.
If you really believe that is true, then you've either not used that many IDES, or do not know what an IDE is, or do not know what "problematic" means or you're simply talking out of your ass or maybe all of the above
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@MrL I want some controls at the top, some controls in lower left, some controls in lower right, and two big lists in the middle, Total Commander-style. Bam, dockpanel for the window. Bam, stackpanel to the top. Bam, another dockpanel to the bottom, some children aligned left, some right. Bam, big fat stackpanelat the end of first dockpanel. Bam, two listboxes to the stackpanel. No anchors, no spacers, no nothing, it all Just Works™. Now Nuget the Prism.Wpf, make viewmodel inherit BindableBase, quickly add two ObservableCollections for data binding and a few DelegateCommands for the buttons. Done. Not even a single event handler required.
Of course it's not always that easy, but I've tried out many different UI frameworks across different languages, and none of them lets me create complete functional views that don't break horribly on window resize, as fast as WPF.
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@stillwater said in .net foundation brouhaha:
@Gąska said in .net foundation brouhaha:
And Visual Studio, with all its quirks, is still the least problematic IDEs I've ever used, and believe me, I've used many.
If you really believe that is true, then you've either not used that many IDES, or do not know what an IDE is, or do not know what "problematic" means or you're simply talking out of your ass or maybe all of the above
Netbeans takes 2 hours to index the project, and it breaks often. Eclipse randomly stops working without any feedback about what went wrong. VSCode indexer crashes when the file I'm writing right now isn't syntactically valid. IDEA has to have caches cleaned regularly. Qt Creator's project config is made almost entirely of undocumented functions. And Vim isn't an IDE.
It's easy to shit on people for saying Microsoft's product is the best in its class. It's much harder to actually show a product that's better than Microsoft's. That goes for both .Net and VS.
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@Gąska said in .net foundation brouhaha:
Of course it's not always that easy
Found your problem - you think this is easy.
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@MrL said in .net foundation brouhaha:
@Gąska said in .net foundation brouhaha:
Of course it's not always that easy
Found your problem - you think this is easy.
Is any of the steps I described hard? Or even medium difficulty?
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@Gąska said in .net foundation brouhaha:
@MrL said in .net foundation brouhaha:
@Gąska said in .net foundation brouhaha:
Of course it's not always that easy
Found your problem - you think this is easy.
Is any of the steps I described hard? Or even medium difficulty?
I had this discussion numerous times before, nothing will come of it. Let's drop the subject.
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@MrL maybe you shouldn't stir shit if you don't want to stand by your words. And the question was genuine. You have to be braindead or worse if you can't code it all up in less than an hour.
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JFC! Okay one last try.
Let's say I use a tool. And it sucks. It is broken. Just because there are a thousand other tools that suck harder does not suddenly make my tool a joy to use. Is that simple enough for you?
One more stupid reply and Imma go read some other thread dude. I don't have the energy for this today.
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@Gąska said in .net foundation brouhaha:
@MrL maybe you shouldn't stir shit if you don't want to stand by your words. And the question was genuine. You have to be braindead or worse if you can't code it all up in less than an hour.
Stir shit? Are you feeling ok today?
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He's not stirring shit. You're the one who's going off like a complete idiot.
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Your example is stacking boxes left and right and going "hey look that was easy" ? This is not a school project. What kind of stupid example is that? That being simple to do makes the entirety of WPF easy to use?
I'm giving up. Get the fuck out of here
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@MrL Looks like you've gone down this rabbit hole before.
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@stillwater said in .net foundation brouhaha:
JFC! Okay one last try.
Let's say I use a tool. And it sucks. It is broken. Just because there are a thousand other tools that suck harder does not suddenly make my tool a joy to use. Is that simple enough for you?
One more stupid reply and Imma go read some other thread dude. I don't have the energy for this today.
Fuck you man. You don't get to accuse others of "not using many other IDEs" and then act all offended when they call your bullshit.
VS sucks, yes. .Net sucks, yes. But .Net sucks less than any other platform I've used. And VS sucks less than any other IDE I used. Something can be objectively bad and yet still better than the competition! Imagine that! And if there is something better than .Net/VS, I'd love to hear about it and try it out. Nothing pisses me off more than someone saying a better tool exists and then failing to deliver.
@MrL "I see your problem, you think..." is always stirring shit. Regardless of context. You wouldn't write that if you didn't want to make a point that I'm wrong. And yes, I feel pretty bad today. I just encountered two idiots who claim I'm full of shit but cannot back anything they say with facts. Who wouldn't feel bad after this?
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@Gąska Where did I say a better tool exists? Calling me out on what bullshit?
I was only complaining about .NET. Period. You came in with this retarded argument of everything else sucks and .NET sucks less therefore it is the best or something stupid like that.
And you go on to say Fuck you? Are you on your period or something?
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@stillwater said in .net foundation brouhaha:
@Gąska Where did I say a better tool exists? Calling me out on what bullshit?
What was that part about "not using that many IDES, or do not knowing what an IDE is" supposed to mean?
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@Gąska said in .net foundation brouhaha:
But .Net sucks less than any other platform I've used. And VS sucks less than any other IDE I used. Something can be objectively bad and yet still better than the competition! Imagine that!
better than any platform "I" used is not objectively better you dumbfuck. I am done with you. You're either a troll or genuinely stupid.
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@Gąska said in .net foundation brouhaha:
@stillwater said in .net foundation brouhaha:
JFC! Okay one last try.
Let's say I use a tool. And it sucks. It is broken. Just because there are a thousand other tools that suck harder does not suddenly make my tool a joy to use. Is that simple enough for you?
One more stupid reply and Imma go read some other thread dude. I don't have the energy for this today.
Fuck you man. You don't get to accuse others of "not using many other IDEs" and then act all offended when they call your bullshit.
VS sucks, yes. .Net sucks, yes. But .Net sucks less than any other platform I've used. And VS sucks less than any other IDE I used. Something can be objectively bad and yet still better than the competition! Imagine that! And if there is something better than .Net/VS, I'd love to hear about it and try it out. Nothing pisses me off more than someone saying a better tool exists and then failing to deliver.
@MrL "I see your problem, you think..." is always stirring shit. Regardless of context. You wouldn't write that if you didn't want to make a point that I'm wrong. And yes, I feel pretty bad today. I just encountered two idiots who claim I'm full of shit but cannot back anything they say with facts. Who wouldn't feel bad after this?
It's been wonderful exchanging ideas with you, as always. Take care.
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@Gąska said in .net foundation brouhaha:
@stillwater said in .net foundation brouhaha:
@Gąska Where did I say a better tool exists? Calling me out on what bullshit?
What was that part about "not using that many IDES, or do not knowing what an IDE is" supposed to mean?
How does that imply there are better tools than VS. Everything sucks equally. You just went the "this sucks in a way that I think is not as bad as how the other thing sucks" and got your panties all up in a bunch
Get fucked. I'm done explaining shit to someone like you.
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@Gąska said in .net foundation brouhaha:
VS sucks, yes. .Net sucks, yes. But .Net sucks less than any other platform I've used. And VS sucks less than any other IDE I used. Something can be objectively bad and yet still better than the competition! Imagine that! And if there is something better than .Net/VS, I'd love to hear about it and try it out. Nothing pisses me off more than someone saying a better tool exists and then failing to deliver.
Welcome back, @blakeyrat!
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@Gąska said in .net foundation brouhaha:
Bam, dockpanel for the window. Bam, stackpanel to the top. Bam, another dockpanel to the bottom, some children aligned left, some right. Bam, big fat stackpanelat the end of first dockpanel. Bam, two listboxes to the stackpanel.
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This post is deleted!
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@dkf (I hate double-posting bugs, but they're still better than not-posting-at-all bugs.)
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@Gąska said in .net foundation brouhaha:
And VS sucks less than any other IDE I used.
VS sucks absolutely 100% for me. Doesn't even run on this system.
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@dkf Which version? What OS?
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@stillwater said in .net foundation brouhaha:
Let's say I use a tool. And it sucks. It is broken. Just because there are a thousand other tools that suck harder does not suddenly make my tool a joy to use. Is that simple enough for you?
What if we scroll back to the reply that started this whole subthread?
@Gąska said in .net foundation brouhaha:
@stillwater .NET is the worst, except for literally every other programming ecosystem under the sun.
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@hungrier no that’s not where the sub thread started. It started when he wanted me to show him an ecosystem better than .NET.
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@stillwater Technically it started with your ".net and everything related can eat a bag of dicks" post to which he replied that it was the least-worst option. Then somehow it turned into
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@hungrier Nope. I don’t understand what it is with you that you can’t read what happened after. He said it sucked less. I said I do not care about the other eco systems. He wouldn’t let it go. He wanted to make it a whole .NET vs rest of the world bullshit.
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@hungrier said in .net foundation brouhaha:
@stillwater Technically it started with your ".net and everything related can eat a bag of dicks" post to which he replied that it was the least-worst option. Then somehow it turned into
Just yer average day on WTD
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@Gąska said in .net foundation brouhaha:
@stillwater said in .net foundation brouhaha:
@Gąska said in .net foundation brouhaha:
IDEA has to have caches cleaned regularly.
IDEA started doing that a year or so ago for me, and stopped doing it a few months ago.
My experience with their products are decent enough, but I won't say that they are perfect. Everything else is about on par or worse so for me there isn't much of a reason to change and have to relearn how everything works. I suppose it's much the same way for you, whatever you're currently the most used to is good enough, and there isn't anything that's better enough to be worth the switch.It's easy to shit on people for saying Microsoft's product is the best in its class. It's much harder to actually show a product that's better than Microsoft's. That goes for both .Net and VS.
Yeah, doubt there's anything that's significantly better, just different. I haven't used either of those in decades now so I couldn't say anything about them really. Back when I used VS, some 15 or more years ago, it was a horrible piece of crashing shit, but everything else was worse so...
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@stillwater said in .net foundation brouhaha:
Which version? What OS?
All versions. macOS.
The only thing that people round here agree on in respect to IDEs is that Xcode is the absolute worst.
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Xcode is special cos when it breaks on you for no reason with a bizarre error there is always someone out there who’ll go “you’re doing it all wrong Xcode is fine” and make you feel like you’re too stupid!
