Home network options
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I'm moving into a new place at the end of next week. So I figured I'd try to optimize my network connections ahead of time to make the transition less painful.
New place layout:
- Two floors, long and narrow. Office and bedroom upstairs, living area below.
Built in 2005, so probably mostly wood (rather than concrete block or brick) for the interior walls/floors.. - Relatively noisy network environment (row of townhouses surrounded by student apartments.
- Cable jacks in each bedroom (on opposite ends of the upstairs) and at one end of the downstairs living area.
Constraints:
- I have to use the ISP's modem. I'm currently using a modem/router/WAP combo. It works ok, but the signal isn't great at the other end of my current place, much less the new, much more spread out place.
- I can't drill/cut holes in the walls.
- I need at least two devices (in the office) to be on wired connections and need WiFi everywhere else. Ideally I'd also be able to run a cable to the XBox downstairs, but that's a much lower priority.
- I would like to have all the network equipment on the UPS that I have.
Current Equipment:
- One UPS
- One cable modem/router/WAP box (ISP)
Concerns:
- If I put the ISP box in the office (which is the shortest cabling route to the wired ones), the other side of the house (especially the downstairs where the TV/XBox are) will have poor signal, especially given the noisy radio environment. It also causes chatter in my speaker system (I can literally hear the wifi signals if nothing is playing)
- If I put the ISP box downstairs (most central for WiFI), I'll have to run lots and lots of cabling up the stairs and won't be able to have the office computers on the UPS as well.
- If I put the ISP box on a shelf in the hallway (using a long coax cable to get it there), I get good signal, but I'm going to have to run ethernet (possibly two cables unless I get a separate switch) back into the office.
I don't know whether the ISP box can even be put into bridge mode to attach my own routers/WAPs--I don't have admin access.
I'd love to just turn on the 5GHz access point (I have enough access via an app to do that) to avoid the noisy environment issue, but that's highly unlikely to reach the rest of the house, especially through floors/walls.
Ideas?
- Two floors, long and narrow. Office and bedroom upstairs, living area below.
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@Benjamin-Hall If you can't get anything better, you could do power line networking. It can be slow with a lot of latency (depending on the relative locations of each end and the electrical wiring between them) but I have found it to be better and more reliable than wifi in my home.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Home network options:
Cable jacks in each bedroom
As in coax (like you'd use for CATV)?
I'd say powerline range extenders - you can get them with a couple of ethernet ports in too, which covers wired and wireless. Guess it depends how it's wired up though.
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@loopback0 said in Home network options:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Home network options:
Cable jacks in each bedroom
As in coax (like you'd use for CATV)?
I'd say powerline range extenders - you can get them with a couple of ethernet ports in too, whcih covers wired and wireless. Guess it depends how it's wired up though.
Yes, coax entry points. Generally one is used for cable TV (which I don't have) and another (or the same one with a splitter) is used for a IP over cable modem.
I'll have to look at the breaker box to see what's wired to what. Current place has both bedrooms on the same circuit, but they're right next to each other. New place...no clue.
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If I put the ISP box downstairs (most central for WiFI), I'll have to run lots and lots of cabling up the stairs and won't be able to have the office computers on the UPS as well.
Single cable + "dumb" switch? I have a single cable running from my router to a switch in my office space, and connect all the devices in the office to the switch. I had an extra Gbit switch laying around, but they are pretty affordable. I got a flat cable that I could run along the walls without it looking terrible; the doors here were installed poorly enough that the flat cable fit through just fine.
Not sure about the UPS. Don't have one personally. I wouldn't bet on the wired internet keeping working if the power goes out, even if I kept my router setup running.
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@Benjamin-Hall I tried Ethernet over COAX and it SUCKED. I imagine powerline isn't going to be much better.
I think your best bet is to get a mesh network like this:
Ideally each would be plugged in to ethernet, but in your case they would just be connected to each other. I wired a whole school with about 9 units, and while the speed wasn't great, it was definitely usable. It didn't help that only the first one was wired. In a house, with 3 or more units, you should get acceptable speeds and you can always add more units to improve it. (I think it probably tops out around 9 or so, but you're unlikely to need anything that big for a house.
As far as my own experience, I have a regular router at home and Gigabit Fios. With 2.4Ghz networking, I could be sitting 6 feet from the router and getting shitty speeds. With 5Ghz it was greatly improved. Some of these Mesh units will autoselect the 2.4Ghz/5Ghz band for you, which might suck. If I had a choice, I would pick one where you have a separate network for 5Ghz and one for 2.4Ghz.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Home network options:
Yes, coax entry points. Generally one is used for cable TV (which I don't have) and another (or the same one with a splitter) is used for a IP over cable modem.
OK, so even if Ethernet over Coax was any good (and I've no experience with it so can't say) they're no use as they're connected back out to the street for the ISP.
edit: this might not actually be an issue, thinking about it...Another alternative is WiFi mesh devices - I've got a couple here on trial from work, although only one is plugged in currently as my house isn't big enough for two to make sense. IME they're good but not as good as powerline - they're not quite as reliable (as is expected for WiFi vs wired) and they're not as quick.
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@cvi said in Home network options:
If I put the ISP box downstairs (most central for WiFI), I'll have to run lots and lots of cabling up the stairs and won't be able to have the office computers on the UPS as well.
Single cable + "dumb" switch? I have a single cable running from my router to a switch in my office space, and connect all the devices in the office to the switch. I had an extra Gbit switch laying around, but they are pretty affordable. I got a flat cable that I could run along the walls without it looking terrible; the doors here were installed poorly enough that the flat cable fit through just fine.
Not sure about the UPS. Don't have one personally. I wouldn't bet on the wired internet keeping working if the power goes out, even if I kept my router setup running.
I've considered getting a switch. Still don't really want to drag cable up the stairs, but it's doable.
And so far the UPS has worked great to keep the wired internet working. My main use is for momentary blips, just long enough to reboot the modem (a laborious 10 minute process) rather than extended outages.
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@loopback0 said in Home network options:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Home network options:
Yes, coax entry points. Generally one is used for cable TV (which I don't have) and another (or the same one with a splitter) is used for a IP over cable modem.
OK, so even if Ethernet over Coax was any good (and I've no experience with it so can't say) they're no use as they're connected back out to the street for the ISP.
Another alternative is WiFi mesh devices - I've got a couple here on trial from work, although only one is plugged in currently as my house isn't big enough for two to make sense. IME they're good but not as good as powerline - they're not quite as reliable (as is expected for WiFi vs wired) and they're not as quick.
I've never tried powerline, but I found the coax one lacking. Does the powerline have a risk of your neighbors connecting to it as well?
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@dangeRuss said in Home network options:
@loopback0 said in Home network options:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Home network options:
Yes, coax entry points. Generally one is used for cable TV (which I don't have) and another (or the same one with a splitter) is used for a IP over cable modem.
OK, so even if Ethernet over Coax was any good (and I've no experience with it so can't say) they're no use as they're connected back out to the street for the ISP.
Another alternative is WiFi mesh devices - I've got a couple here on trial from work, although only one is plugged in currently as my house isn't big enough for two to make sense. IME they're good but not as good as powerline - they're not quite as reliable (as is expected for WiFi vs wired) and they're not as quick.
I've never tried powerline, but I found the coax one lacking. Does the powerline have a risk of your neighbors connecting to it as well?
In this case likely not--these are townhouses (owned by different people), so all the wiring is separate to the meter.
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@Benjamin-Hall also, afaik, the powerline adapters are paired. Adding additional adapters is possible, but for pairing needs an action at (one of) the "old" adapters as well. So it shouldn't be possible for the neighbors to listen on/use your internet without you knowing.
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@dangeRuss said in Home network options:
Does the powerline have a risk of your neighbors connecting to it as well?
Even if your neighbours had an outlet on the same circuit as yours (and they won't unless there's a huge
involved) the connection between the devices is encrypted so they'd need access to your network to add their device in.
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@robo2 Yes, the connection between the units is encrypted. On mine, IIRC I had to do the pairing procedure right off the bat; they didn't come paired by default. And hypothetically if someone managed to pair an unauthorized receiver to your network, you can redo the pairing to reset with a new encryption key.
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@loopback0 said in Home network options:
even if Ethernet over Coax was any good
Not the point. If their ISP is their cable provider, Ethernet-Over-Coax is hilarious.
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@Benjamin-Hall Are you renting? I guess so.
I have been doing the rent a long house thing for a while, and this is what I tried:
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Ethernet over power. It works. Sort of. If there wasn't a breaker between the two powerline ethernet modems, it would be nearly gigabit. But if there is, it will crap out at like 80mbps. Which is ALMOST good enough, but getting worse every day.
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Run a single flat ethernet cable from one end of the house to the other. Put in a switch and an access point at either end. Flat ethernet is flat enough that you can shove it between carpet and the wall. Or just tape it up. It's very unobtrusive.
I'm doing a variation on two right now. (The "end" access point is closer to the middle of my house).
So, put the cable modem where ever it is conveniently close to the devices you need wired. Run a cable somewhere towards the center or other end of the house, and put in an access point at that end to give your house good wireless coverage.
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@dangeRuss said in Home network options:
I tried Ethernet over COAX and it SUCKED.
10base2 was not too bad… 30 years ago. Really quite low speed by today's standards though.
Powerline networking is (if you're lucky) quite a bit better. Unless you're dumb and put it on a power extension block. That degrades the signal a lot. (Don't ask me how I know…
) Got a 4k TV hooked up to one and it doesn't seem too bad. Except I don't watch it because I prefer to avoid that sort of thing.
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@dkf said in Home network options:
@dangeRuss said in Home network options:
I tried Ethernet over COAX and it SUCKED.
10base2 was not too bad… 30 years ago. Really quite low speed by today's standards though.
Powerline networking is (if you're lucky) quite a bit better. Unless you're dumb and put it on a power extension block. That degrades the signal a lot. (Don't ask me how I know…
) Got a 4k TV hooked up to one and it doesn't seem too bad. Except I don't watch it because I prefer to avoid that sort of thing.If cable providers can run gigabit speeds for everyone in the neighborhood, why is it that you can't get decent speeds at home?
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Home network options:
I don't know whether the ISP box can even be put into bridge mode to attach my own routers/WAPs--I don't have admin access.
I think it's your router that you'd want to put in bridge node, not the ISP box. You don't want to expose your internal LAN to the ISP's network.
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@dangeRuss said in Home network options:
@dkf said in Home network options:
@dangeRuss said in Home network options:
I tried Ethernet over COAX and it SUCKED.
10base2 was not too bad… 30 years ago. Really quite low speed by today's standards though.
Powerline networking is (if you're lucky) quite a bit better. Unless you're dumb and put it on a power extension block. That degrades the signal a lot. (Don't ask me how I know…
) Got a 4k TV hooked up to one and it doesn't seem too bad. Except I don't watch it because I prefer to avoid that sort of thing.If cable providers can run gigabit speeds for everyone in the neighborhood, why is it that you can't get decent speeds at home?
Overprovisioning, aka, that sentence is literally true and actually false.
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@Unperverted-Vixen said in Home network options:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Home network options:
I don't know whether the ISP box can even be put into bridge mode to attach my own routers/WAPs--I don't have admin access.
I think it's your router that you'd want to put in bridge node, not the ISP box. You don't want to expose your internal LAN to the ISP's network.
I'd want the ISP's box to be a dumb gateway, letting the router do all the NAT and DHCP duties. That means the ISP box is in bridge mode, as I understand it.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Home network options:
That means the ISP box is in bridge mode, as I understand it.
Yes, although some routers may call it something else.
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@Captain said in Home network options:
@Benjamin-Hall Are you renting? I guess so.
I have been doing the rent a long house thing for a while, and this is what I tried:
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Ethernet over power. It works. Sort of. If there wasn't a breaker between the two powerline ethernet modems, it would be nearly gigabit. But if there is, it will crap out at like 80mbps. Which is ALMOST good enough, but getting worse every day.
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Run a single flat ethernet cable from one end of the house to the other. Put in a switch and an access point at either end. Flat ethernet is flat enough that you can shove it between carpet and the wall. Or just tape it up. It's very unobtrusive.
I started with option 1 for my apartment for my work computer during the pandemic and eventually switched over to option 2 when I started paying more for faster internet. The 80Mbps PoE link was more than good enough when I had a 25Mbps internet connection but not nearly enough when I started paying for 200Mbps. If you're careful when routing the cable then it really can be unobtrusive.
On a side note, I lent my PoE adapters out to a friend and they were able to get substantially better link speeds out of them. Electrical wiring really does have a big impact.
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So powerline networking would be an issue unless I put the gateway in the office and put the wifi extender end in the bedroom on the other side. Otherwise they're on separate breakers and I have no confidence in the wiring (beyond being probably up to minimal code).
I do however, have enough cat5e cable on hand to stretch from downstairs up to the office room. So I can put the gateway there and run a switch or switch + AP (a router with DHCP turned off, basically) in the closet of the office. Wont' be exceptionally pretty, but I can route it so it's unlikely to get stepped on or interfere with vacuuming. That way I can have everything on good wifi + wired.
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Don't have any experience with this brand but for $80 might be worth a try
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@Gribnit it's cheaper to add on another couple of roof trusses than to get longer spans, so yeah, it was a common building style.
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