Update on Administration & Community Changes
-
As discussed in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations and Update: the new admin/moderation team and changes discussions will begin soon, the community is still in a "leadership transition", with me being the sole administrator/moderator/dictator.
The more time I spend here, the more I'm learning that this community is a very special place. The forums started "accidentally" back when I selected Community Server to run my growing blog, and evolved into a casual place where (mostly) IT professionals could casually talk (and shittalk) about industry stuff, work things, and everything else.
It reminds me a lot of the old days, perhaps even going back to Bulletin-Board Systems, where people with a shared interest would come together and get to know each other by talking about that interest, and other things. The "other things" and the "get to know each other" parts are what's missing in media today.
- Stackoverflow and Quora is so rigidly on-topic that there's no room for "off-topic" discussions
- the Slackrooms and Dischats operate in the moment, and there's no sense of permanence or history
- Hackernews and Reddit are more like comments sections on an article
Honestly, there's a lot of potential here. I don't mean for us to grow into some mega-media property -- just the opposite. I think we can really turn this place into a more welcoming forum for other IT professionals, who like many of you, are looking for a fun place to casually interact outside of all the mega-media comments sections.
For the time being, I'm still in "learning" and "discovering" mode, and the "Sekret nomination talks" (and private messages / emails from you) are really helping me do that. Although it will be a slower transition than I anticipated, I'm confident the investment will really pay off, and we'll build a community stronger than we've ever had before.
-
Thanks for the update. Since the 'Ben incident' the forum seems to be operating quite well without (at least, not in the easily visible places) a lot of trouble, so I think you can take the time you think you need to get the vision and volunteers right.
-
I don't know what exactly you mean by "turn this place into a more welcoming forum for other IT professionals", but if we were really to "go big", we'd need to seriously curtail the garage part. By which I mean, make it so you have to click through a special consent dialog full of trigger warnings and whatnot, so people who aren't ready won't join - and on the other hand, have serious moderation effort to impose Twitter-like "civility" rules on the rest of the forum so every garage leak is dealt with within minutes.
Otherwise this place will be forever branded as alt-right cesspool (regardless of whether it's accurate or not).
-
I too am concerned by the 'turn this place into' part. It is entirely possible that means 'advertise this place as such, and do just a little bit of hedge trimming here and there', but I have only ever seen it mean, across over a hundred communities, 'crudely axe off everything and everyone that doesn't fit the vision', including by people that I figured would have just as much respect for the existing community as I figure you do.
-
@Gąska @pie_flavor addressing concerns like yours is why I'm taking such a long time; my goal isn't to "gut the place" (it would have been easier to shut the place down and start over if that were the case), but to refactor things a bit. I don't know what that means yet, either, but I'll put it this way -- you might be surprised at some of the things I consider "unwelcoming".
For example, the so-called "megatopics" are not welcoming, because they aren't intuitive how to use. That doesn't mean we ban "megatopics", we just find a way to make them more newbie friendly, such as explicit categories, instructions at the top of each topic, tags, or those sorts of things.
-
@apapadimoulis said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
you might be surprised at some of the things I consider "unwelcoming".
Yeah, the language is part of it. The words you are using like 'welcoming' and 'diverse' people tend to associate with 'hamfisted ideological moderation', whether that means they like it or that they don't. If you can pull it off without this being the case, I'd be very interested in the result.
-
@pie_flavor said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
I too am concerned by the 'turn this place into' part.
I didn't say I'm concerned. Hell, it might even be a good thing! It's just, it might kill the spirit of this place, and even if it doesn't, I feel like several users here will make it as hard as possible to make that change. For some reason, this forum has attracted some insufferable assholes who just want to watch the world burn, and being unwelcoming is a badge of honor to them.
@apapadimoulis said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
For example, the so-called "megatopics" are not welcoming, because they aren't intuitive how to use. That doesn't mean we ban "megatopics", we just find a way to make them more newbie friendly, such as explicit categories, instructions at the top of each topic, tags, or those sorts of things.
I admit, it wasn't what I had in mind when I read your post. That said, the thing about megatopics is that they're mostly used for stuff that wouldn't be posted otherwise at all because they don't warrant a thread of their own. They're basically topical chat groups, and there's no viable alternative to them other than actual chat groups, which we don't have.
A whole different beast is garage megatopics, which are just regular threads made for one specific thing that kinda grew out of control, but even years later all posts are on the same topic.
-
@Gąska said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
even years later all posts are on the same topic.
At least by TDWTF-ish standards of "same topic."
-
@HardwareGeek the UBI thread somehow become about Musk's business empire, but other than that, things don't stray far from the OP's theme.
-
@Gąska said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
actual chat groups, which we don't have.
You have to start a chat with a specific user in mind, and you become the "owner" of the chat, but you can invite anyone else you want and I'm pretty sure there's a way I'm not seeing to designate multiple "owners". It's the speech bubble next to your profile picture in the header.
-
@TwelveBaud but chats are complete shit in this godforsaken software. Broken in just about every conceivable way.
-
@pie_flavor Yes. Just like Discourse when we were on that, and just like Community Server before it.
-
@pie_flavor and the few bits that aren't broken, are designed to be as annoying as possible.
-
@TwelveBaud well, I'm certainly familiar with Discourse starting directly after you stopped using it, and Discourse chats work great.
-
@pie_flavor except for the hard limit on number of messages (500? Or something like that), I agree. Even before we've become no longer welcome, it's worked fairly well.
Especially when you look at the latest update here, where someone can leave chat before you even send first message. @apapadimoulis what are the chances of getting a rollback?
-
On Discourse a
PM was just a special type of topic, not whatever specific hell is implemented here.A public chat group is just a topic. They work well.
-
@Gąska said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@HardwareGeek the UBI thread somehow become about Musk's business empire, but other than that, things don't stray far from the OP's theme.
The theme of the "In What World is this OK?" garage topic isn't immediately obvious. But those might be the only two exceptions.
-
@Gąska said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
That said, the thing about megatopics is that they're mostly used for stuff that wouldn't be posted otherwise at all because they don't warrant a thread of their own.
This was how it was explained to me in the Sekret Talks, but to be honest, I still don't have a good "feeling" for them. That takes a while, for anyone. It's not just appreciating the "why" (i.e. they're a replacement for chat groups, but why aren't you sing Slack or whatever, etc.), but the "how" (i.e. what does/doesn't warrant it's own thread, what should I post in which topic, etc.). Anyways they're fun, they're fine, but from an outsider's perspective, it's unwelcoming because it looks like there's nothing but a few ancient posts with thousands of replies.
@pie_flavor said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
The words you are using like 'welcoming' and 'diverse' people tend to associate with 'hamfisted ideological moderation'
Sure, there's a lot of "feelings" to a lot of different words, including both "hamfisted" and "ideological moderation". I don't quite understand what you mean by them in this context -- just like it's hard to imagine what I mean by "welcoming" and "diverse" means.
The moderation we should be aiming for is self-moderation, which for the most part (99.95%), we have. If we all remember that this is a community where members interact (not a platform where speakers have an audience), it will be a lot easier to be considerate of those we're interacting with.
-
@Gąska said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@apapadimoulis what are the chances of getting a rollback?
I don't think we can rollback the software version, database changes and all, but probably an Upgrade is possible. There's a topic where such things are discussed (I guess we're on a pre-release version of sorts), though it may be restricted-access.
-
@apapadimoulis said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
I don't quite understand what you mean by them in this context -- just like it's hard to imagine what I mean by "welcoming" and "diverse" means.
I mean that when most people use them, they are using them to describe the same thing Ben was.
-
After the Great Changes, will I still be able to call people names and insult them anytime I want? This is what interests me. I mean inside the Garage of course.
For me this forum is the only place where I can say what I think, how I think it, without this insufferable forced politeness that infected everything.
-
Idea: I know it'd be a lot of work and everybody,
devs included, is way too 
to implement it, but what we could do about megathreads is to create a special category, in which only the most recent 14 days/50 posts (whichever is smallest) would show up by default in each thread, and the user would have to click a special button on each thread they'd want to read in full.
-
@MrL said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
will I still be able to call people names and insult them anytime I want? This is what interests me. I mean inside the Garage of course.
I think the plan is "Yes, Within Reason
".Defining just what "within reason" means is the hard part.
-
@apapadimoulis said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@Gąska said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@apapadimoulis what are the chances of getting a rollback?
I don't think we can rollback the software version, database changes and all, but probably an Upgrade is possible. There's a topic where such things are discussed (I guess we're on a pre-release version of sorts), though it may be restricted-access.
We could roll back. According to one of the nodebb devs the only thing we might lose are some custom category backgrounds (or something like that) which isn't a huge deal. But yes, I'd say we should upgrade to the next stable release (which has been released).
-
@Zecc said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
Defining just what "within reason" means is the hard part.
Shouldn't be a problem, we are all very reasonable around here.
-
@boomzilla said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
But yes, I'd say we should upgrade to the next stable release (which has been released).
Anyone knows if next stable still has the retarded PM behavior where you can leave the chat before first message? If so, I think we should still rollback.
-
@Gąska what are you, some kind of aliens shooting fanatic?
-
-
@GuyWhoKilledBear There are several others. "Computer says no guacamole" is about trans people for some reason that I keep forgetting, and there's one that has a ridiculously convoluted title that I think is about cultural appropriation - the title is something about @fox smoking cigars and like 8 other things. IIRC these threads were started back when some people could edit titles and did so pretty often on threads like this.
-
@blek said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
for some reason that I keep forgetting
Discourse title edit silliness.
-
@blek said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
"Computer says no guacamole" is about trans people for some reason that I keep forgetting,
It always was; the title morphed into something unrecognizable. I don't remember the reason, either.
-
@HardwareGeek said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@blek said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
"Computer says no guacamole" is about trans people for some reason that I keep forgetting,
It always was; the title morphed into something unrecognizable. I don't remember the reason, either.
Avocado is a euphemism for genitals, so guacamole must be trans. Stir in some cyber bullying/Twitter messes, and you have the thread.
-
@Gąska said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
Idea: I know it'd be a lot of work and everybody,
devs included, is way too to implement it, but what we could do about megathreads is to create a special category, in which only the most recent 14 days/50 posts (whichever is smallest) would show up by default in each thread, and the user would have to click a special button on each thread they'd want to read in full.There has been discussion of doing some of that. (the special category part). The rest would require a bunch of custom development, which would likely mean a fork of
as I don't see a broad use case for limiting what can be viewed in a topic by default.Other suggestions have included having a topic that explains what the mega threads are and how to jump into one, then adding a link to that topic in the OP of all mega-threads.
-
@Benjamin-Hall said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
Avocado is a euphemism for genitals
-
-
@Placeholder I seem to recall it going through several instances of "Computer says no" before it got to guacamole, but that was basically 150 million years ago so :who_nose:
-
@hungrier Guacamole was around a long time before the computer part. I think Dr. Wario was involved at one point as well. It was a very strange time.
-
@Placeholder said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
It was a very strange time.
It isn't now?
-
@dcon The existence of one strange time does not preclude other times being strange for different reasons.
-
I'm still convinced that third-hand accounts of the garage are much better than actually participating in it. Opening that thread cannot possibly as amusing as watching you try to explain it.
-
@hungrier said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@Placeholder I seem to recall it going through several instances of "Computer says no" before it got to guacamole
So there’s something to be said for phpBB’s including the thread title with each message after all …
-
@abarker said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
The rest would require a bunch of custom development, which would likely mean a fork of
as I don't see a broad use case for limiting what can be viewed in a topic by default.It's essentially jumping to the last page (or second-to-last page) if the topic happens to be in a special category and you've not visited it before which is... odd behaviour.
-
@hungrier said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
Avocado is a euphemism for genitals
What isn't, really?
-
@Gurth said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@hungrier said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@Placeholder I seem to recall it going through several instances of "Computer says no" before it got to guacamole
So there’s something to be said for phpBB’s including the thread title with each message after all …
Discourse did at least let you view the title history, it's just it got lost in the migration and only some topics had their titles reset to something sensilble (e.g. the status topic).
-
I really can't bear to read through another argument about transexuality, and I'm pretty sure everything that can be said about it has already been said about it.
-
@abarker said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@Gąska said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
Idea: I know it'd be a lot of work and everybody,
devs included, is way too to implement it, but what we could do about megathreads is to create a special category, in which only the most recent 14 days/50 posts (whichever is smallest) would show up by default in each thread, and the user would have to click a special button on each thread they'd want to read in full.There has been discussion of doing some of that. (the special category part). The rest would require a bunch of custom development, which would likely mean a fork of
as I don't see a broad use case for limiting what can be viewed in a topic by default.AFAIK we have something akin to a fork already? @boomzilla?
"Fake the real number of posts sent to the client" seems like a fairly easy hack to slap on. Keyword: fairly.
Other suggestions have included having a topic that explains what the mega threads are and how to jump into one, then adding a link to that topic in the OP of all mega-threads.
I like separate category better. Especially considering that, since the forum main page a.k.a. recent posts is how most users navigate the forum, the probability of finding a megathread before finding the instructions for megathreads is very high.
-
@Gąska said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@abarker said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@Gąska said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
Idea: I know it'd be a lot of work and everybody,
devs included, is way too to implement it, but what we could do about megathreads is to create a special category, in which only the most recent 14 days/50 posts (whichever is smallest) would show up by default in each thread, and the user would have to click a special button on each thread they'd want to read in full.There has been discussion of doing some of that. (the special category part). The rest would require a bunch of custom development, which would likely mean a fork of
as I don't see a broad use case for limiting what can be viewed in a topic by default.AFAIK we have something akin to a fork already? @boomzilla?
"Fake the real number of posts sent to the client" seems like a fairly easy hack to slap on. Keyword: fairly.
Other suggestions have included having a topic that explains what the mega threads are and how to jump into one, then adding a link to that topic in the OP of all mega-threads.
I like separate category better. Especially considering that, since the forum main page a.k.a. recent posts is how most users navigate the forum, the probability of finding a megathread before finding the instructions for megathreads is very high.
There's also the
option.
-
@Gąska said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@abarker said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
@Gąska said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
Idea: I know it'd be a lot of work and everybody,
devs included, is way too to implement it, but what we could do about megathreads is to create a special category, in which only the most recent 14 days/50 posts (whichever is smallest) would show up by default in each thread, and the user would have to click a special button on each thread they'd want to read in full.There has been discussion of doing some of that. (the special category part). The rest would require a bunch of custom development, which would likely mean a fork of
as I don't see a broad use case for limiting what can be viewed in a topic by default.AFAIK we have something akin to a fork already? @boomzilla?
Eh...kind of but not really. We run NodeBB in a docker container. We include a particular NodeBB release (via docker), then on top of that we have various NodeBB extensions including some stuff like our custom emojis and custom CSS and JS. Then there are some patches we do (like to fiddle with Onebox dates). For details see here:
tdwtf/Dockerfile at master · boomzillawtf/tdwtf
Custom CSS and headers for what.thedailywtf.com. Contribute to boomzillawtf/tdwtf development by creating an account on GitHub.
"Fake the real number of posts sent to the client" seems like a fairly easy hack to slap on. Keyword: fairly.
It might be doable via an extension. Depends on a lot of stuff and I haven't been in the NodeBB internals for a while so I couldn't say with any certainty. There are lots of extensions already out there so maybe something similar has already been done.
-
@Placeholder said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
It was a very strange time.
It was a very
time, so yes.
-
@Gąska said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
"Fake the real number of posts sent to the client" seems like a fairly easy hack to slap on. Keyword: fairly.
@boomzilla said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
It might be doable via an extension.
But it shouldn't be done, IMO.
Alex's concern is that megatopics are unwelcoming and having them exhibit some behaviour that's unique to this forum and totally weird to anyone who's ever used a forum before isn't going to make them more welcoming.
@Gąska said in Update on Administration & Community Changes:
since the forum main page a.k.a. recent posts is how most users navigate the forum, the probability of finding a megathread before finding the instructions for megathreads is very high.
But a previously unvisited topic takes them right to the first post, which (as per @abarker's suggestion) would have a link to the guide. Dumping users near the end of a topic rather than the start misses this so you're still going to need some way of explaining this suggested weird behaviour of megatopics.
