How to deal with a dishonest co-worker
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I had a bit of a chewing out this morning for a job I took a bit too long to do. It was for genuine reasons why the job took to long i.e. porting logic, writing test etc. I just estimated it badly.
However I did a similar job 2 years ago with the same software and I narrowly escaped being sued because they signed off the software I wrote before running it. Obviously I am worried about providing another third party with an interface to the system. So I wrote tonnes of test cases based on the real shitty code I wrote 2 years ago. I can then validate the code behaves properly.
It took about a month to deliver. They are still testing.
The other co-worker is saying that I am basically an idiot for taking as long. When there was a hell of a lot of domain knowledge he didn't have.
One of his arguments as why I was an idiot is because I said something in jest regarding web development.
I am thinking if I have a conversation with him again, I will be recording it. I don't want to go down this path. Is there any alternatives?
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E_INSUFFICIENT_CONTEXT- can't figure enough background there to actually figure out what the problem is/was.
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@PJH said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
E_INSUFFICIENT_CONTEXT- can't figure enough background there to actually figure out what the problem is/was.My sin was underestimating work. His sin was lying by taking my words out of context.
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@sweaty_gammon said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
I said today "I was being hypobolic and I was lamenting about he job to lighten the mood". He just lied and said "I was breathing heavy" and "I was obviously upset".
I am thinking if I have a conversation with him again, I will be recording it. I don't want to go down this path. Is there any alternatives?
Like @PJH says, need more context. What objective are you trying to accomplish by recording the interaction? What good could come of it? What harm could come of it? Are there legal ramifications (e.g. one-party vs. two-party consent)?
Project estimation is hard, especially on legacy efforts. Reasonable people understand this. The way I handle this in my current role is to keep management appraised of my progress on roughly a daily basis, passing on concerns and questions in the meantime, which has the added benefit of them understanding just how hard the given job is. Now, we're all billable, so my interests and the company's interests are aligned, and I almost never get cries of "Why's this taking so long," instead, comments along the lines of, "I'm glad you're handling this one," so that may not apply as well in a business model where development time is not a revenue generator but a cost center.
In a previous life, development time was very much a cost center, and I had managers and coworkers similar to yours who would gripe about my taking "five million years" to complete something, along with offensive insinuations that I was an ADHD sufferer or autistic. The thing was, though, that my shipped defect rate was much lower than that of my coworkers. Funny how that works. When push came to shove and they started asking for status updates every 15 minutes or otherwise pressured me into pushing code, I would remind them of the inherent risks in doing so, and they would usually back off. If not, I'd wash my hands and wait to be proven right.
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The best way to deal with dishonest coworkers is to distance yourself from them and give them as little purchase for their lies and deceptions. Much like how it is with arguing with idiots, you only stand to lose by engaging.
If you feel like potentially burning a few bridges, locking horns with him and seeing who comes out on top might be fun if you're into corporate politics. I sure am not.
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@Carnage said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
locking horns with him and seeing who comes out on top might be fun if you're into corporate politics
There are people who are into corporate politics?!!
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@stillwater said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
@Carnage said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
locking horns with him and seeing who comes out on top might be fun if you're into corporate politics
There are people who are into corporate politics?!!
Oh yes, there are plenty of them.
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@sweaty_gammon said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
hypobolic
Is that the opposite of hyperbolic?
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@sweaty_gammon said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
I am thinking if I have a conversation with him again, I will be recording it. I don't want to go down this path. Is there any alternatives?
Honestly, the feeling I got from reading your post is that you're under a lot of pressure and just needed to vent.
I hope you've had a good rest and have cleared your thoughts in the mean time.Re-reading... well, it's hard to tell.
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@sweaty_gammon said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
The other co-worker is saying that I am basically an idiot for taking as long.
So you have an ignorant fool for a cow-orker. Ignorance is potentially fixable, but foolishness is something they have to suffer through. Maybe they'll become wiser eventually… but that's something that happens on the scale of years so don't hold your breath.
And don't hit them. That never ends well.
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@dkf said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
@sweaty_gammon said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
The other co-worker is saying that I am basically an idiot for taking as long.
So you have an ignorant fool for a cow-orker. Ignorance is potentially fixable, but foolishness is something they have to suffer through. Maybe they'll become wiser eventually… but that's something that happens on the scale of years so don't hold your breath.
And don't hit them. That never ends well.
Don't swear at them either, people like that are looking for the slightest excuse to get you to to write a written apology. From there you're a 'known troublemaker' and they can keep working on their plan to get rid of you with less effort.
For some toxic people a pre-emptive strike is the only tactic, wait until you have something actionable to go to HR with and try to document any bullying until then.Edit: Not personal experience, but I've seen this happen to someone else.
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@stillwater said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
There are people who are into corporate politics?!!
They usually end up as managers.
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@PJH said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
@stillwater said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
There are people who are into corporate politics?!!
They usually end up as managers.
If you get lucky. Usually architects whose word is law.
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@stillwater
50 Shades of Work
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@Zecc said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
@sweaty_gammon said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
hypobolic
Is that the opposite of hyperbolic?
No. While the etymology parallels that of hyperbole (ὑπέρ, above; βάλλω, to throw), hypobole (ὑπό, under; βάλλω, to throw) represents an entirely different rhetorical device, throwing your colleague under the (metaphorical or literal) bus.
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@DogsB said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
@PJH said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
@stillwater said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
There are people who are into corporate politics?!!
They usually end up as managers.
If you get lucky. Usually architects whose word is law.
https://what.thedailywtf.com/topic/26035/architect-says-no-runtimeexceptions-allowed-in-java-8
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e: realized this isn't the garage; disregard
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@sweaty_gammon said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
I said something in jest regarding web development.
@sweaty_gammon said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
I was being hypobolic and I was lamenting about he job to lighten the mood
Now I'm wondering what century you must have been born in to speak English like this...
But okay.
I said today "I was being hypobolic and I was lamenting about he job to lighten the mood". He just lied and said "I was breathing heavy" and "I was obviously upset".
He lied to whom, and why was he even in position to make comments about you?
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@sweaty_gammon said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
I had a bit of a chewing out this morning for a job I took a bit too long to do. It was for genuine reasons why the job took to long i.e. porting logic, writing test etc. I just estimated it badly.
However I did a similar job 2 years ago with the same software and I narrowly escaped being sued because they signed off the software I wrote before running it. Obviously I am worried about providing another third party with an interface to the system. So I wrote tonnes of test cases based on the real shitty code I wrote 2 years ago. I can then validate the code behaves properly.
It took about a month to deliver. They are still testing.
The other co-worker is saying that I am basically an idiot for taking as long. When there was a hell of a lot of domain knowledge he didn't have.
One of his arguments as why I was an idiot is because I said something in jest regarding web development.
I said today "I was being hypobolic and I was lamenting about he job to lighten the mood". He just lied and said "I was breathing heavy" and "I was obviously upset".
I am thinking if I have a conversation with him again, I will be recording it. I don't want to go down this path. Is there any alternatives?
It's amazing how the shitty coworker character assassination approach is the same thing as a cop's excuse for murder: "I was scared, my feels were feeling"
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@Gribnit said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
It's amazing how the shitty coworker character assassination approach is the same thing as a cop's excuse for murder: "I was scared, my feels were feeling"
I'd say something about current university culture at this point, but this isn't
The Garage...
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@PJH said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
@Gribnit said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
It's amazing how the shitty coworker character assassination approach is the same thing as a cop's excuse for murder: "I was scared, my feels were feeling"
I'd say something about current
universityculture at this point, but this isn'tThe Garage...
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I don't get it. In our line of work more often than not the code is piss and work is urine. There is not enough time to do your work and on top of it with all the context switching that one has to do, a typical workday is busy from morning till evening.
Where in the fuck do people have the energy and time to behave like assholes and play office politics?
Also if you're gonna be trouble would it not be uncomfortable to work with the same folks when you ve called them idiots?
The Mind is boggled. I've seen my fair share of troublesome people but I just don't get the logic behind this all.
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@stillwater Well, if you have a mix of lifers and contractors, or if you have a scrum master practice with literally nothing to do but play politics, plenty of opportunities arise. For instance, your average incompetent architect is entirely composed of politics.
They find the time. It's a steady trickle of assholery.
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@Gribnit This is bad news to me. Since I figured I'd never wanna be a manager the only way up the ladder was to an architect position which is still technical and you don't have to deal with low level coding issues.
This looks the architect in a team is the resident team cunt.
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@stillwater The kind that isn't is called a technical lead or team lead programmer. Architects that just angrily critique code based on their out-of-date understanding of the language, are rare. Lazy architects who just write flowcharts then forget about the project, are the most common type. There aren't any good ones. Good ones would write code.
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@Gribnit said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
Architects that just angrily critique code based on their out-of-date understanding of the language, are rare
Around these parts these are called program managers too. Senior program managers are the worst
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@stillwater said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
@Gribnit said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
Architects that just angrily critique code based on their out-of-date understanding of the language, are rare
Around these parts these are called program managers too. Senior program managers are the worst
Compile their HR violations that they will constantly make out of their arrogance, and destroy them. It is venal action but they deserve it. Any manager who's decided they're a Little King needs removed from the industry.
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@Gribnit Absolutely. But it usually happens these folks are in bed with the HR department or the management and it's usually your word against theirs even if you have a paper trail.
The outcome is never in favor of the developers to the point where the developer has to leave to get out of a toxic workplace. Am sure you have laws over there. We've got nothing in place like that. Sad state of affairs. I've seen quite a few devs silently quit and leave and then you run into them after a few months somewhere and they have a whole story.
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@stillwater said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
@Gribnit Absolutely. But it usually happens these folks are in bed with the HR department or the management and it's usually your word against theirs even if you have a paper trail.
The outcome is never in favor of the developers to the point where the developer has to leave to get out of a toxic workplace. Am sure you have laws over there. We've got nothing in place like that. Sad state of affairs. I've seen quite a few devs silently quit and leave and then you run into them after a few months somewhere and they have a whole story.
Well, there's always poison.
And no, not aware of any laws that anybody is enforcing regarding contractors here. Most companies treat contractors like FTEs except way, way shittier.
It's about damn time to put together an APA, licensure, review boards, and tons of other shit to get the fucking plebes and idiots to stop hobbling our profession.
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What did you say in jest about web dev?
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@stillwater I got a manager that made a great show of how he was best buddies with the management 7 layers above him, and he had a history of outright threatening people with how well connected he was. In shot, he was a complete and utter shit. When my team got him for a manager, one of my team members was distraught because she had had him as a manager before, and he did a proper job of fucking with her. She was so stressed by it she actually cried.
This time around, however, this idiot that should just have been a wankstain set his sights on me. I guess it's because I always make it clear to whatever manager I have that I am entirely disinterested in politics, and I do not play that game. But I do not play that game because I don't like it. I am skilled and ruthless enough at it when forced to play though.
And me, coming from a family with a rich tradition of problems with authority, well.. His fucking about with me got him a real and proper nose burn, so he actually left me and my team the fuck alone after that to the great joy of that team member that had a minor break down when she heard he was to be our manager.But man, he was a complete ass the whole fucking time he tried to break me. He'd stand right in from of me and the whole team and loudly double check every last fucking thing I said I did, calling people up and asking, he'd require me to give him completely fucking useless reports, and he'd complain to every other manager for the slightest infraction, real or imaginary.
And he'd involve management about 3 layers up in every email where he questioned or accused me of anything. I guess it was to scare me into submission or something, but fuck that. I don't do submission, nor do I suffer fools.
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@Carnage yet this person is still employed, presumably. you will need to finish the job.
What was being attempted was constructive dismissal, which is the hardest thing in the world to prove. There's no reason to let this person stay in the industry. The prior two sentences are not in fact related.
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@Gribnit said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
@Carnage yet this person is still employed, presumably. you will need to finish the job.
Yeah, like I said, I don't do politics. Getting him to leave me and my team the fuck alone was perfectly fine for me. Having made sure the higher ups knew he was an arsewipe that made competent people leave was just a bonus. In in this country, getting yourself or someone else fired is a downright chore.
I do guess that it's going to get a lot easier in a year or two, when the economy takes a nosedive.
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All in all, 90% of your coworkers are utter crap. Since Sturgeon's applies to everything, this means that about 9% of them will be politics-playing shitweasels (since all the crap incompetents on merit will try to, but most will be crap incompetents at politics). These 9% will always become the management.
The odds of being good at merit and good at politics (that is, your chance of having a good manager) are 1 in a 100. So, you see that Sturgeons has predicted the ratio of good to terrible managers as well. If you think that means that the 1 good manager will be in any way advantaged vs the 9 terrible managers - no, this is not the case, there are more of them.
Seriously, it's time for licensure and a professional organization. Then all you have to worry about are the people playing politics with the licensing board - and they'll be at C-level.
If we actually y'know, worked like any other profession that requires the knowledge and skill level we use, there'd be an ethics board for shit like this.
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@Carnage said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
when the economy takes a nosedive
Wait WHAT?
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@stillwater said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
@Carnage said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
when the economy takes a nosedive
Wait WHAT?
The world is about due for a recession, or an economic downturn. There are already signs of the world economy slowing down.
Sweden in particular has an overheated market with warning signs all over it, so when the recession (or economic downturn) inevitably comes, the economy of Sweden will probably get hit hard.
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@Carnage Oh shit time to hold on to my job I suppose.
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@stillwater yep, any day now
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@stillwater said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
@Carnage Oh shit time to hold on to my job I suppose.
Wouldn't worry too hard. The downturn is just part of the world gearing up for the next World War. You can see us itching for it all over the globe. Plenty of polarization. Hate building up. This just happens sometimes. But there'll be near-total employment all over while it happens.
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@Gribnit said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
The downturn is just part of the world gearing up for the next World War.
Oh okay... Wait there s a war coming too? I hope there s some sort of war where nobody gets killed and all the computers go down. We can finally go outdoors and do physical work and not have to look at screens all the fucking time
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@stillwater said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
@Gribnit said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
The downturn is just part of the world gearing up for the next World War.
Oh okay... Wait there s a war coming too? I hope there s some sort of war where nobody gets killed and all the computers go down. We can finally go outdoors and do physical work and not have to look at screens all the fucking time
mm, well, that'd be nice.
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@stillwater said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
nobody gets killed and all the computers go down
Because one wouldn't preclude the other in any fashion.
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@kazitor said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
@stillwater said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
nobody gets killed and all the computers go down
Because one wouldn't preclude the other in any fashion.
well I mean there's a few people being kept alive by computers actively. and then there's all the utility systems that people depend on to live. and there goes the electricity and the water.
However. That's people dying, vs being killed.
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@kazitor no not those computers. Well you get what I mean.
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@Gribnit said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
well I mean there's a few people being kept alive by computers actively. and then there's all the utility systems that people depend on to live. and there goes the electricity and the water.
Yes, hence the sarcasm :)
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@kazitor but nobody gets killed.
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@Gribnit I guess so, at least not directly. I could imagine some craziness shortly after.
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@kazitor said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
@Gribnit I guess so, at least not directly. I could imagine some craziness shortly after.
Well, we're in luck, they'll most likely use weapons like usual right after the computers go down so the point it is
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I live in India and I don't think water and gas would be a problem if computers go down.
Well electricity might get fucked which would fuck the pumps that supply water :(
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@stillwater said in How to deal with a dishonest co-worker:
I live in India and I don't think water and gas would be a problem if computers go down.
Well electricity might get fucked which would fuck the pumps that supply water :(
And all the control systems at the plants producing the gas...
If computers would stop working all over the place at the same moment, shit would get bad real fast if things are not brought back online in a few days. And there is actually a potential for a lot of the computers and various other sensitive electronic equipment of the world being fried at the same time by a mass coronal ejection event in Sol.
