Turkish Coup
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@Maciejasjmj said in Turkish Coup:
Yeah, life is exactly that simple. Muslims are just living a jolly good life out there with the only problem being a bit too little money, and the only reason they'd try to get out of there is either to get more money, or blow up some white folks, depending on the media's mood today. Not at all because IS is blowing shit up left and right exactly in those Muslim countries without really caring about anyone who's not with them, and "improving their life economically" means "actually having a home that maybe won't be blown to smithereens".
@boomzilla is saying there a class of immigrant called "economic migrant". He's not saying that all of the refugees are economic migrants.
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@xaade so what are your criteria for distinguishing ones from the others? I suppose if their home has been blown up they're refugees, and if it hasn't yet they're just in it for the money? Or maybe we should just take a simple "Christian =good, Muslim = bad" solution? Or check if they're too brown to stay?
Let's put it this way. If after what happened in Nice and Paris people decided to get the fuck outta there, would you be calling them "economic migrants" or inquire whether they've actually lost anything? Or would you just accept they don't want to live in a place that's not safe anymore and risk losing their lives next time?
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@Maciejasjmj said in Turkish Coup:
so what are your criteria for distinguishing ones from the others?
It's not a problem that can be solved easily, if at all, especially at the border.
In most cases it's simply observation of behavior after they migrate. If they come, complain and return, then I would have my doubts.
You see, just because we can't determine which is which using a hard-lined rule-set, doesn't mean they don't exist.
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@Maciejasjmj said in Turkish Coup:
Or maybe we should just take a simple "Christian =good, Muslim = bad" solution? Or check if they're too brown to stay?
Oh, I'm a racist for asserting that welfare fraud exists, simply because it's difficult to determine who is committing the fraud.
Yeah... racist...
That's the kind of bleeding-heart illogical crap I was talking about @Yamikuronue
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
Oh, I'm a racist for asserting that welfare fraud exists
Welfare fraud, yeah, because those migrants come here hauling money bags when you're not looking.
How the hell do you apply things like "welfare fraud" and "economic migration" to people coming in from the warzone? What does it matter that they're fucking Rockefellers out there if they can lose it all and their lives to boot any time someone decides their yard is a nice place for a bomb?
And more interestingly, how do you apply "economic migration" and "welfare fraud" to the same people? Are they poor enough to abandon their homes and move to Europe to get money, but rich enough it would be "welfare fraud" at the same time?
Or maybe, just maybe, they don't want to get killed. But naaah, they're perfectly safe out there, must be the money.
I'm really not sure if you're just making those "economic migrants" up as an excuse to persecute anyone who comes here and intentionally dump them in shit conditions saying they should be grateful for that, or if in your mind the Arabic countries are perfectly safe and nice places to live in for most people and those towelheads are just complaining about not being able to afford seven iPhones.
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@Maciejasjmj said in Turkish Coup:
Yeah, life is exactly that simple.
Yep.
@Maciejasjmj said in Turkish Coup:
Muslims are just living a jolly good life out there with the only problem being a bi...
What? Now you're talking about something else, too.
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@Maciejasjmj said in Turkish Coup:
How the hell do you apply things like "welfare fraud" and "economic migration" to people coming in from the warzone?
What the actual fuck? The whole point is that the economic migrants generally aren't coming from a warzone.
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@boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:
@Maciejasjmj said in Turkish Coup:
How the hell do you apply things like "welfare fraud" and "economic migration" to people coming in from the warzone?
What the actual fuck? The whole point is that the economic migrants generally aren't coming from a warzone.
Like Egypt. Oh, wait, not exactly safe there.
Tunis, then, nice place. Except for the shootings and bombs.
Turkey maybe? Well, as you can see upthread, not really either.
So pray tell, what's that mythical place where all Arabs live in harmony and out of danger, and the only problem is kinda crappy minimum wage?
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@Maciejasjmj said in Turkish Coup:
So pray tell, what's that mythical place where all Arabs live in harmony and out of danger, and the only problem is kinda crappy minimum wage?
I don't see why I should defend your straw man. Nor do I see why you find it incomprehensible that people "even" from those places could still be leaving to improve their economic situation.
Next you'll tell me that because of the drug cartels or whatever in Mexico, no one leaves there for the US for economic reasons.
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@boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:
Nor do I see why you find it incomprehensible that people "even" from those places could still be leaving to improve their economic situation.
I guess you have to read their minds to see if they care about safety or money, then.
Except what the fuck does it matter? If Mohammed marches to Europe for safety, and Abdul marches from the same place for the money, does it matter what they think? How do you determine which one is the good guy and which one is the cynical money grabber short of either dumping them in shittiest conditions ever and expecting the good guys to still kiss your hands after you do, or rubber hosing them until they say they wanted money?
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@boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:
Next you'll tell me that because of the drug cartels or whatever in Mexico, no one leaves there for the US for economic reasons.
From what I know about Mexican drug cartels, they don't generally shoot or blow up crowds of bystanders. But yeah, if they did, you'd have the exact same problem - some people care about their safety, some don't, and it doesn't matter because they're in the same danger.
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@Maciejasjmj said in Turkish Coup:
and which one is the cynical money grabber
Now what are you on about?
@Maciejasjmj said in Turkish Coup:
some people care about their safety, some don't, and it doesn't matter because they're in the same danger.
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@Maciejasjmj said in Turkish Coup:
I guess you have to read their minds to see if they care about safety or money, then.
I guess you'll have to read the minds of people approaching you to see which one is a robber?
Again, you keep flipping back and forth between.
- We can't tell which is economic.
- Economic immigrants don't exist.
And then leveraging that switch to make sure each counter argument is a strawman you can use for the other.
Stop
@Maciejasjmj said in Turkish Coup:
How do you determine
Again, how do you determine that someone in a wreck is pretending to be injured?
You generally find out after a few months.
@Maciejasjmj said in Turkish Coup:
doesn't matter because they're in the same danger.
Not every Muslim in the Middle east is in immediate danger.
You're arguing that there is this false dilemma that either President of Mexico is in immediate danger of being killed by a druglord or that everyone is safe.
You do realize that there are several vacation spots in Mexico?
In fact, one of my tour guides had a lot to say about illegal immigrants. He despised them because they made Mexico look like an uneducated destitute country.
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I mean, when those refugees travel through half of Europe and half a dozen perfectly safe countries in order to get to Germany because the welfare's better, it becomes sort of difficult to argue that they're fleeing out of fear for their lives, doesn't it...
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
I guess you'll have to read the minds of people approaching you to see which one is a robber?
Again, you keep flipping back and forth between.We can't tell which is economic.
Economic immigrants don't exist.And then leveraging that switch to make sure each counter argument is a strawman you can use for the other.
I guess you should just run away from everyone who approaches you on the off chance they might be trying to rob you.
As for "economic migrants", depends on the definition. If it's "a person who migrates to better their quality of life" - I guess there are people who care more about getting money than their lives, but as I've said, disregard for your life doesn't mean you're in less danger. If it's "a person who objectively has no other reason to migrate than money"... No, at least in most Arabic countries, they do have pretty good reasons.
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@Maciejasjmj said in Turkish Coup:
I guess you should just run away from everyone who approaches you on the off chance they might be trying to rob you.
No
Just don't pull bullshit like Greece, fail to check passports, then bitch of racism when Germany implements it's own and starts kicking back immigrants that fail inspection, and then bitch again when the EU decides that, maybe borders shouldn't be open to Greece.
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
Again, how do you determine that someone in a wreck is pretending to be injured?
You generally find out after a few months....huh? So if they're not permanently disabled, they're not injured? Do you want to say that if someone gets better after a few months of therapy, they weren't injured at all? I don't get the analogy.
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@Maciejasjmj said in Turkish Coup:
I guess there are people who care more about getting money than their lives, but as I've said, disregard for your life doesn't mean you're in less danger.
So, we should give people welfare just because they put themselves in unnecessary danger.
Here's the we can't tell the difference argument.
@Maciejasjmj said in Turkish Coup:
If it's "a person who objectively has no other reason to migrate than money"... No, at least in most Arabic countries, they do have pretty good reasons.
And we're back to "they don't exist".
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@Maciejasjmj said in Turkish Coup:
...huh? So if they're not permanently disabled, they're not injured? Do you want to say that if someone gets better after a few months of therapy, they weren't injured at all? I don't get the analogy.
No
We're calling bullshit on the argument that everyone in the Middle East is in immediate danger.
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
You do realize that there are several vacation spots in Mexico?
Um, so? I guess if the country still has a few nice hotels standing, it's perfectly fine? Yeah, well, Tunis would probably disagree.
I don't get this analogy either.
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@blek said in Turkish Coup:
I mean, when those refugees travel through half of Europe and half a dozen perfectly safe countries in order to get to Germany
Yeah, dump them all in Greece, that's gonna help matters. Why the hell would you move to a country that can barely sustain itself, let alone a couple millions of people who would need at least some initial investment?
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
Just don't pull bullshit like Greece, fail to check passports
Aaaand how would checking passports help matters? IS can supply their goons with ones that are either fake or taken off dead bodies, and those who had their houses blown up wuold likely lose theirs or not be able to retrieve them. So by checking passports, you're turning down those most in need and letting in terrorists. G'job.
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
So, we should give people welfare just because they put themselves in unnecessary danger.
Of course. If they could only, I don't know, stop being killed.
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
We're calling bullshit on the argument that everyone in the Middle East is in immediate danger.
I'm not sure where you got that from your car analogy, but yeah, sure.
Except they pretty much are. Unless you have a surefire way to determine which places in Middle East are safe from IS, Hamas, and any other crazy with a bomb, in which case a lot of people could use your divine knowledge.
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@blek said in Turkish Coup:
half a dozen perfectly safe countries
dump them all in Greece
You still don't answer the question as to why locating people in countries that can't afford housing them is a better idea than putting them in countries which do.
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@Maciejasjmj But I'm not talking about that at all. I'm talking about huge numbers of "refugees" who flat-out refuse to stay in any country poorer than Germany, even when offered, and in some cases, when they find out they can't get to Germany, they just go back where they came from.
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@blek said in Turkish Coup:
@Maciejasjmj But I'm not talking about that at all. I'm talking about huge numbers of "refugees" who flat-out refuse to stay in any country poorer than Germany, even when offered, and in some cases, when they find out they can't get to Germany, they just go back where they came from.
Okay, let's get some facts on the table: "Huge numbers" means exactly what? Quantify please.
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@Rhywden Hmm, yes, let me just find the stats. Oh wait, there aren't any, because why would anyone keep track of that, right?
Never fear, let's make our own! In Czech Republic, 134 Syrians and 269 "other" applied for "international protection". Let's just assume that those 269 others are all migrants from the middle east. That's 403 refugees. http://www.mvcr.cz/migrace/ViewFile.aspx?docid=21970941
Here's one group of them who hopped the border to Germany as soon as they could, despite being taken care of and safe. It was 25 people at first and then 16 more: http://www.tyden.cz/rubriky/domaci/dalsi-uprchlici-z-iraku-chteji-opustit-cesko-vyzvedli-si-pasy_379744.html
That's just over 10 percent; at the same timeI didn't bother searching for any others and I'm likely including a whole lot of people who are not from the ME. Is that huge enough?
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@blek said in Turkish Coup:
who flat-out refuse to stay in any country poorer than Germany, even when offered
Liiike...? I don't know of any European country along the way that's tripping over itself to house the refugees. From what I've read, they're either dumping them in camps outside the border, or playing hot potato.
What's that country that would love to take the refugees in and can treat them humanely except they just won't come? From what I know, you have either places like Italy which can barely keep up with the influx, or places like Hungary which just lock themselves down.
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@blek said in Turkish Coup:
Czech Republic
Well duh, if you're going to detain them and charge them for that, you shouldn't really be surprised.
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I don't know of any European country along the way that's tripping over itself to house the refugees
Again: Czech Republic has agreed to house up to 1500 middle eastern refugees in 2015. Only (up to) 403 even got here, and a tenth of them ran away.
Well duh, if you're going to detain them and charge them for that, you shouldn't really be surprised.
That article doesn't seem to be truthful. "Only country detaining people for 40 days"? Greece has refugee camps where people are held for months at a time, AFAIK.
Oh, and the detention facility holds people who were caught going to, you guessed it, mostly Germany. The Schengen treaty requires us to detain them as they entered the Schengen area illegally. I'm sure everyone would gladly let them go.
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@blek said in Turkish Coup:
That article doesn't seem to be truthful.
I don't think we can have a meaningful discussion if you're gonna debate truthfulness of UN statements. If you want to, knock yourself out,, but you can prove anything by just calling anyone who says differently a liar.
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@Maciejasjmj So do people NOT spend months at a time in Greek refugee facilities?
This says they do: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2016/07/refugees-greece-living-prison-160716142452953.html
"But it's been almost two months and I haven't got any treatment," he says.
From Turkey, he set sail in a crowded dinghy and arrived on a Greek island four months ago.
It's a much more recent article, sure, but I remember hearing about this way back in 2015, too.
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@blek so adding the two, so far the situation is "Czech Republic sucks for migrants, but these days other countries suck just as much".
Not exactly a great argument to convince people to stay in either.
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@Maciejasjmj No, the situation is "If you come to the Czech Republic, legally, you will be safe and we will provide you with shelter, food, healthcare and legal counsel. On the other hand, if you get here illegally we'll arrest you as law and international treaties command us to, and we'll charge you for lodging because that's how it works here and we do that to everyone."
Even if what the article you linked is true on all other accounts, it still only applies to people who get caught breaking the law - yeah, those get treated like criminals, how very surprising. Those 1500 people the government has agreed to accept would not get that treatment as they would not be in the Schengen area illegally.
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@lucas1 said in Turkish Coup:
I didn't know he was considered an Islamist
How the fuck anybody can pay that little attention is more than I can underst... oh wait, it's the pro-brexit nuff-nuff. As you were.
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@Dreikin said in Turkish Coup:
were you thinking brexit would involve tugboats moving Great Britain off the coast of Florida to further solidify and symbolize the "special" relationship between the US and the UK?
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@Yamikuronue said in Turkish Coup:
I never can tell what the hell you're on about
Somoleons.
I think they're some kind of fundamentalist particle.
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@CoyneTheDup said in Turkish Coup:
John Kerry says Turkey should present ‘evidence that withstands scrutiny’ to back any extradition request
I remember that exact same line coming out of the Taliban just before Shrub the Lesser invaded Afghanistan.
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@Maciejasjmj said in Turkish Coup:
but you can prove anything by just calling anyone who says differently a liar.
LiarLIES.
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@blek said in Turkish Coup:
@Rhywden Hmm, yes, let me just find the stats. Oh wait, there aren't any, because why would anyone keep track of that, right?
Never fear, let's make our own! In Czech Republic, 134 Syrians and 269 "other" applied for "international protection". Let's just assume that those 269 others are all migrants from the middle east. That's 403 refugees. http://www.mvcr.cz/migrace/ViewFile.aspx?docid=21970941
Here's one group of them who hopped the border to Germany as soon as they could, despite being taken care of and safe. It was 25 people at first and then 16 more: http://www.tyden.cz/rubriky/domaci/dalsi-uprchlici-z-iraku-chteji-opustit-cesko-vyzvedli-si-pasy_379744.html
That's just over 10 percent; at the same timeI didn't bother searching for any others and I'm likely including a whole lot of people who are not from the ME. Is that huge enough?
So, you don't have any hard numbers, save for anecdotes, but you're sure that they're "huge numbers".
Just what I thought - always the same with your kind. Spread a lot of FUD but don't have any hard numbers to support their shitty arguments.
@blek said in Turkish Coup:
I don't know of any European country along the way that's tripping over itself to house the refugees
Again: Czech Republic has agreed to house up to 1500 middle eastern refugees in 2015. Only (up to) 403 even got here, and a tenth of them ran away.
1500? Wow. Such huge numbers. Much wow.
edit: I find the downvotes delicious! "Hey, I disagree with you but don't have any real arguments to counter you so here's a downvote because I can!"
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
passports and ids
Riiiight, because people fleeing a war-torn country are guaranteed to have all of those things.
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@sloosecannon said in Turkish Coup:
Riiiight, because people fleeing a war-torn country are guaranteed to have all of those things.
It's a civilized country, people have IDs.
At some point you have to balance helping the refugees with the security of your own country.
You can't let blind emotions dictate everything you do.
As an individual, people can feel free to make their own sacrifices to help others, but as a country, you can't force all of your citizens to accept risks. That's not just.
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@xaade As if your country did take such huuuuuge risks. You make it sound as if you were threatened by the apocalypse.
FUD at its finest.
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
A large percentage of potential tragedies are prevented over here because one good guy had a gun
Lol
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@tufty said in Turkish Coup:
The only reason this one has been called a "terrorist" attack is because the bloke was brown. No links to terrorist organisations (although the police knew about him as he was a wife-beater), didn't go to the mosque, drank, fed his children pork..
Seems like it was recent, but looks like he was radicalized:
Nice killer Mohamed Lahouaiej Bouhlel 'only started going to mosque this April'
The terrorist behind the Bastille Day atrocity was radicalised in a matter of weeks, French officials indicated on Saturday after the Islamic State claimed responsibility for the lorry rampage and described him as a "soldier of Islam".
Bouhlel's phone records prove he was in contact with known Islamic radicals. Authorities confirmed "he seems to have known people who knew Omar Diaby", an Islamist believed to be linked with the Al Nusra group, which is close to Al Qaeda.
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
but as a country, you can't force all of your citizens to accept risks.
No? Isn't that exactly what the US has been doing by its repeated military incursions into - well - anywhere it likes?
Or maybe by its refusal to consider introducing even the slightest measures of gun control?
I could go on, but I'd rather go to bed.
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@tufty said in Turkish Coup:
Or maybe by its refusal to consider introducing even the slightest measures of gun control?
ALTERNATE REALITY DETECTED
